"george" wrote in message
news:8Ggwd.270267$R05.30763@attbi_s53...

"rtk" wrote in message
...
The subject is a sick fish lying on the kitchen counter, gasping and
contorting and appearing to even the youngest child to be uncomfortable.

To you, maybe. I would never put a fish that was that alive in that
situation.
The subject is a fish that is so sick that it can't swim, and just floats
on
it's side and is incapable of fleeing when you put your hand around it.

You look at the fish and you think of how the National Academies defines
pain,
what the researches at such and such institution have printed in 1000
words or
more about the nervous systems of fish, about the relative tolerance for
acute
and chronic discomfort of the human animal, especially when closely
related,
to the small fish on the counter, and then you discuss these matters at
length
on a couple newsgroups.

Meanwhile the little fish continues what you theorize is its
non-miserable
gasping and contortions.

Is there something wrong with this picture? Am I detecting a peculiar
lack of
spontaneous response to a creature in need? Can we say *empathy?*

Ruth Kazez


Yes, there is something wrong with this picture. What is wrong is that
you've
placed a sick fish that might be savable on a kitchen counter. See above.
You
can have empathy for an animal and still put it down. We do it for
horses. We
can certainly do it for a goldfish.


Now I am really confused...George, haven't you been arguein that you would
put a sick fish on the ground and let it gasp for breath until dead?

BV.

"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"george" wrote in message
news:8Ggwd.270267$R05.30763@attbi_s53...

"rtk" wrote in message
...
The subject is a sick fish lying on the kitchen counter, gasping and
contorting and appearing to even the youngest child to be uncomfortable.

To you, maybe. I would never put a fish that was that alive in that
situation.
The subject is a fish that is so sick that it can't swim, and just floats
on
it's side and is incapable of fleeing when you put your hand around it.

You look at the fish and you think of how the National Academies defines
pain,
what the researches at such and such institution have printed in 1000
words or
more about the nervous systems of fish, about the relative tolerance for
acute
and chronic discomfort of the human animal, especially when closely
related,
to the small fish on the counter, and then you discuss these matters at
length
on a couple newsgroups.

Meanwhile the little fish continues what you theorize is its
non-miserable
gasping and contortions.

Is there something wrong with this picture? Am I detecting a peculiar
lack of
spontaneous response to a creature in need? Can we say *empathy?*

Ruth Kazez


Yes, there is something wrong with this picture. What is wrong is that
you've
placed a sick fish that might be savable on a kitchen counter. See above.
You
can have empathy for an animal and still put it down. We do it for
horses. We
can certainly do it for a goldfish.


Now I am really confused...George, haven't you been arguein that you would
put a sick fish on the ground and let it gasp for breath until dead?

BV.


A dying fish, BV. A dying fish. If it is just sick, why would I put it down if
I can do something to make it well? Ruth's statement was "The subject is a sick
fish lying on the kitchen counter, gasping and contorting and appearing to even
the youngest child to be uncomfortable." That has nothing to do with what we
are talking about. We are talking about a fish that is so sick that there is no
hope for it to recover. In other words, it would be on it's last leg. My
experience with treating fish is that those who aren't able to flop around and
contort "on the counter", as she puts it, are too sick to recover. Obviously if
a fish is able to do so, it may have enough energy left to be saved, and I would
do all I can to save it. If it is floating on it's side and is unable to swim
away or make any effort to do so when you try to catch it, obviously it is too
far gone to practically do anything for it. At that point, is is probably
already gasping even while still in the water.

"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"george" wrote in message
news:8Ggwd.270267$R05.30763@attbi_s53...

"rtk" wrote in message
...
The subject is a sick fish lying on the kitchen counter, gasping and
contorting and appearing to even the youngest child to be uncomfortable.

To you, maybe. I would never put a fish that was that alive in that
situation.
The subject is a fish that is so sick that it can't swim, and just floats
on
it's side and is incapable of fleeing when you put your hand around it.

You look at the fish and you think of how the National Academies defines
pain,
what the researches at such and such institution have printed in 1000
words or
more about the nervous systems of fish, about the relative tolerance for
acute
and chronic discomfort of the human animal, especially when closely
related,
to the small fish on the counter, and then you discuss these matters at
length
on a couple newsgroups.

Meanwhile the little fish continues what you theorize is its
non-miserable
gasping and contortions.

Is there something wrong with this picture? Am I detecting a peculiar
lack of
spontaneous response to a creature in need? Can we say *empathy?*

Ruth Kazez


Yes, there is something wrong with this picture. What is wrong is that
you've
placed a sick fish that might be savable on a kitchen counter. See above.
You
can have empathy for an animal and still put it down. We do it for
horses. We
can certainly do it for a goldfish.


Now I am really confused...George, haven't you been arguein that you would
put a sick fish on the ground and let it gasp for breath until dead?

BV.


A dying fish, BV. A dying fish. If it is just sick, why would I put it down if
I can do something to make it well? Ruth's statement was "The subject is a sick
fish lying on the kitchen counter, gasping and contorting and appearing to even
the youngest child to be uncomfortable." That has nothing to do with what we
are talking about. We are talking about a fish that is so sick that there is no
hope for it to recover. In other words, it would be on it's last leg. My
experience with treating fish is that those who aren't able to flop around and
contort "on the counter", as she puts it, are too sick to recover. Obviously if
a fish is able to do so, it may have enough energy left to be saved, and I would
do all I can to save it. If it is floating on it's side and is unable to swim
away or make any effort to do so when you try to catch it, obviously it is too
far gone to practically do anything for it. At that point, is is probably
already gasping even while still in the water.

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 21:26:58 GMT, "george"
wrote:


"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"george" wrote in message
news:8Ggwd.270267$R05.30763@attbi_s53...

"rtk" wrote in message
...
The subject is a sick fish lying on the kitchen counter, gasping and
contorting and appearing to even the youngest child to be uncomfortable.

To you, maybe. I would never put a fish that was that alive in that
situation.
The subject is a fish that is so sick that it can't swim, and just floats
on
it's side and is incapable of fleeing when you put your hand around it.

You look at the fish and you think of how the National Academies defines
pain,
what the researches at such and such institution have printed in 1000
words or
more about the nervous systems of fish, about the relative tolerance for
acute
and chronic discomfort of the human animal, especially when closely
related,
to the small fish on the counter, and then you discuss these matters at
length
on a couple newsgroups.

Meanwhile the little fish continues what you theorize is its
non-miserable
gasping and contortions.

Is there something wrong with this picture? Am I detecting a peculiar
lack of
spontaneous response to a creature in need? Can we say *empathy?*

Ruth Kazez


Yes, there is something wrong with this picture. What is wrong is that
you've
placed a sick fish that might be savable on a kitchen counter. See above.
You
can have empathy for an animal and still put it down. We do it for
horses. We
can certainly do it for a goldfish.


Now I am really confused...George, haven't you been arguein that you would
put a sick fish on the ground and let it gasp for breath until dead?

BV.


A dying fish, BV. A dying fish. If it is just sick, why would I put it down if
I can do something to make it well? Ruth's statement was "The subject is a sick
fish lying on the kitchen counter, gasping and contorting and appearing to even
the youngest child to be uncomfortable." That has nothing to do with what we
are talking about. We are talking about a fish that is so sick that there is no
hope for it to recover. In other words, it would be on it's last leg. My
experience with treating fish is that those who aren't able to flop around and
contort "on the counter", as she puts it, are too sick to recover. Obviously if
a fish is able to do so, it may have enough energy left to be saved, and I would
do all I can to save it. If it is floating on it's side and is unable to swim
away or make any effort to do so when you try to catch it, obviously it is too
far gone to practically do anything for it. At that point, is is probably
already gasping even while still in the water.

FFS I think that everybody now has formed their own opinions about how
to treat an obviously dying organism. No matter what the species is,
if it's life has to be brought to an end, it's blatently obvious that
this act should be performed in as quick and painless a method as
possible. Please don't use the "anthy" word again as it seems not many
of the posters to this thread are fully aware of it's true definition.
Just coat the bugger in breadcrumbs and get it into the Deep Fat Fryer
as soon as possible.

YP

Howard
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/otters/Fish.htm

"Yorkshire Pudding" wrote in message
...
snip
FFS I think that everybody now has formed their own opinions about how
to treat an obviously dying organism. No matter what the species is,
if it's life has to be brought to an end, it's blatently obvious that
this act should be performed in as quick and painless a method as
possible. Please don't use the "anthy" word again as it seems not many
of the posters to this thread are fully aware of it's true definition.
Just coat the bugger in breadcrumbs and get it into the Deep Fat Fryer
as soon as possible.
snip

Which reminds me of my recipe for Carp.

1. Baste the carp in butter, garlic, kosher salt and ground pepper. Add some
red pepper flakes if you like spicey.
2. Preheat the oven to 350.
3. Place the carp in a cardboard box and bake for 10 minutes.
4. Take the carp out of the box, throw it away and eat the box.

BV.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:49:59 -0500, "Benign Vanilla"
wrote:


"Yorkshire Pudding" wrote in message
.. .
snip
FFS I think that everybody now has formed their own opinions about how
to treat an obviously dying organism. No matter what the species is,
if it's life has to be brought to an end, it's blatently obvious that
this act should be performed in as quick and painless a method as
possible. Please don't use the "anthy" word again as it seems not many
of the posters to this thread are fully aware of it's true definition.
Just coat the bugger in breadcrumbs and get it into the Deep Fat Fryer
as soon as possible.
snip

Which reminds me of my recipe for Carp.

1. Baste the carp in butter, garlic, kosher salt and ground pepper. Add some
red pepper flakes if you like spicey.
2. Preheat the oven to 350.
3. Place the carp in a cardboard box and bake for 10 minutes.
4. Take the carp out of the box, throw it away and eat the box.

BV.

LOL

YP

On a more serious note, wouldn't the best person to consult be your
vet?

Howard
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/otters/Fish.htm

Which reminds me of my recipe for Carp.

1. Baste the carp in butter, garlic, kosher salt and ground pepper. Add
some
red pepper flakes if you like spicey.
2. Preheat the oven to 350.
3. Place the carp in a cardboard box and bake for 10 minutes.
4. Take the carp out of the box, throw it away and eat the box.

BV.
I took the liberty to add another step to your recipe : :~
Hope you don't mind - some gourmet chefs are a little touchy about someone
messing with their recipes - no affront intended

1. Baste the carp in butter, garlic, kosher salt and ground pepper. Add some
red pepper flakes if you like spicey.
2. Preheat the oven to 350.
3. Place the carp in a cardboard box and bake for 10 minutes.
4. Take the carp out of the box, throw it away and eat the box.
5. Have your garden hose ready and possibly your Fire Dept # on speed dial
Gale :~)

Which reminds me of my recipe for Carp.

1. Baste the carp in butter, garlic, kosher salt and ground pepper. Add
some
red pepper flakes if you like spicey.
2. Preheat the oven to 350.
3. Place the carp in a cardboard box and bake for 10 minutes.
4. Take the carp out of the box, throw it away and eat the box.

BV.
I took the liberty to add another step to your recipe : :~
Hope you don't mind - some gourmet chefs are a little touchy about someone
messing with their recipes - no affront intended

1. Baste the carp in butter, garlic, kosher salt and ground pepper. Add some
red pepper flakes if you like spicey.
2. Preheat the oven to 350.
3. Place the carp in a cardboard box and bake for 10 minutes.
4. Take the carp out of the box, throw it away and eat the box.
5. Have your garden hose ready and possibly your Fire Dept # on speed dial
Gale :~)

And bringing the thread around full circle, or something like that...

HEADLINE: Polish Ecologists Want Better Deal for Xmas Carp

story
http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsst...8572/story.htm








kathy

And bringing the thread around full circle, or something like that...

HEADLINE: Polish Ecologists Want Better Deal for Xmas Carp

story
http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsst...8572/story.htm








kathy

I know this thread has died, but my ISP finally got me out of lurker
purgatory so my posts could be seen again. To the statement below:

How do you think most pet shops deal
with dying fish that can no longer be saved by reasonable
treatements? Ask you pet shop owner what he does. I think you will
be surprised at the answer, if he/she will even give it to you.

I had replied several days ago:
IME, pet shops let them die in the tank. Why? The hope is some (choose your
adjective) soul might come by and buy the fish because they think they can
"save" it. Not to mention the 2 week guarantee, so the customer isn't out
any money even if it does die. Thus, pet store fish are usually quite dead
before they're tossed in the trash. ~ jan ;o)


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~


-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----

I know this thread has died, but my ISP finally got me out of lurker
purgatory so my posts could be seen again. To the statement below:

How do you think most pet shops deal
with dying fish that can no longer be saved by reasonable
treatements? Ask you pet shop owner what he does. I think you will
be surprised at the answer, if he/she will even give it to you.

I had replied several days ago:
IME, pet shops let them die in the tank. Why? The hope is some (choose your
adjective) soul might come by and buy the fish because they think they can
"save" it. Not to mention the 2 week guarantee, so the customer isn't out
any money even if it does die. Thus, pet store fish are usually quite dead
before they're tossed in the trash. ~ jan ;o)


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~


-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
I know this thread has died, but my ISP finally got me out of lurker
purgatory so my posts could be seen again. To the statement below:

How do you think most pet shops deal
with dying fish that can no longer be saved by reasonable
treatements? Ask you pet shop owner what he does. I think you will
be surprised at the answer, if he/she will even give it to you.

I had replied several days ago:
IME, pet shops let them die in the tank. Why? The hope is some (choose your
adjective) soul might come by and buy the fish because they think they can
"save" it. Not to mention the 2 week guarantee, so the customer isn't out
any money even if it does die. Thus, pet store fish are usually quite dead
before they're tossed in the trash. ~ jan ;o)


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~


So I ask you, is this any more humane than my earlier suggestion?

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
I know this thread has died, but my ISP finally got me out of lurker
purgatory so my posts could be seen again. To the statement below:

How do you think most pet shops deal
with dying fish that can no longer be saved by reasonable
treatements? Ask you pet shop owner what he does. I think you will
be surprised at the answer, if he/she will even give it to you.

I had replied several days ago:
IME, pet shops let them die in the tank. Why? The hope is some (choose your
adjective) soul might come by and buy the fish because they think they can
"save" it. Not to mention the 2 week guarantee, so the customer isn't out
any money even if it does die. Thus, pet store fish are usually quite dead
before they're tossed in the trash. ~ jan ;o)


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~


So I ask you, is this any more humane than my earlier suggestion?