Hi All,

After lurking on this group for a few months and a lot of research elsewhere
I am almost ready to finalize the plans for our pond.

We will most likely be using pond liner due to the area to be covered and
the fact that it won't be completely square or rectangular. The structure
will be decking panels. I will probably need to put a grid in short-term
because of my 4 year old daughter. We are planning to keep fish in here -
hubbie wants Koi but this is still up for debate.

The pond is going to be raised around 2-3 foot above ground level. I was
wondering if we need to dig below the surface at all as well? The problem is
that our soakaway runs around six inches below where the end of the pond is
going to be. Of course there is the possibility to dig deeper at the other
end of where the pond is planned for.

Any thoughts on this would be helpful - especially on the need to dig and if
yes how deep?

Thanks
Gill

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .
Any thoughts on this would be helpful - especially on the need to dig and
if
yes how deep?
==================
If it deep freezes where you live you would need some kind of heater to keep
an area unfrozen - or dig below the frost line. As you know the fish will
not survive being frozen solid.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." :-)
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

DUH!


On Sun, 15 May 2005 15:34:51 -0500, "Reel McKoi" of
mumbled something to the effect of:


===If it deep freezes where you live you would need some kind of heater to keep
===an area unfrozen - or dig below the frost line. As you know the fish will
===not survive being frozen solid.

Give the folks a break. I am sure they are well aware most fish would
not take kindly to being encased in a block of ice...........And you
did not answer the question either.

YOu can get my with most any depth, but deeper is better in the colder
climes, as you can take advantage of warmer ground temps and if you
install a stock tank heater you can get my with even shallower depths.
Don't take it for granted if the frost level is only 2 feet your safe
at 3 feet......odds are it will bite you one day. A lot of folks have
kept fish in the cold climes at depths of 3 feet or less with the use
of a heater in the pond, or with a shelter over the pond with a bit of
heat inside.......Personally I would make it as deep as I could, and
if it turns out its not quite deep enough add a heat source, or move
fish indoors during winter season as a lot also do.




==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o

"~Roy~" wrote in message
...


DUH!


On Sun, 15 May 2005 15:34:51 -0500, "Reel McKoi" of
mumbled something to the effect of:


===If it deep freezes where you live you would need some kind of heater
to keep
===an area unfrozen - or dig below the frost line. As you know the
fish will
===not survive being frozen solid.

Give the folks a break. I am sure they are well aware most fish would
not take kindly to being encased in a block of ice...........And you
did not answer the question either.

YOu can get my with most any depth, but deeper is better in the colder
climes, as you can take advantage of warmer ground temps and if you
install a stock tank heater you can get my with even shallower depths.
Don't take it for granted if the frost level is only 2 feet your safe
at 3 feet......odds are it will bite you one day. A lot of folks have
kept fish in the cold climes at depths of 3 feet or less with the use
of a heater in the pond, or with a shelter over the pond with a bit of
heat inside.......Personally I would make it as deep as I could, and
if it turns out its not quite deep enough add a heat source, or move
fish indoors during winter season as a lot also do.




==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o

Moving the fish indoors is not an option - we are already over-run with
tropical tanks - 6 at the last count and more planned he, he....a heater is
a good option and one I have already thought of....

Our winters vary....this year was very mild down here but not in the rest of
the UK where there was a big freeze. When I had a pond before I saw a good
2-3 inches of ice - used a football to provide air.

Maybe if I dig down an extra couple of feet where I can without going into
the soakaway this might provide additional sanctuary for the fish - and have
the bulk of it 2-3 feet with a heater - what do you think?

Thanks
Gill

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .
Moving the fish indoors is not an option - we are already over-run with
tropical tanks - 6 at the last count and more planned he, he....a heater
is
a good option and one I have already thought of....

## And that should work. Since my propagation pools outdoors are on the
surface I drop an inexpensive heater in each one. It floats through a block
of Styrofoam. The fish spend the winter under these dangling heaters. Even
the cheap aquarium ones work and last for years. :-)

Our winters vary....this year was very mild down here but not in the rest
of
the UK where there was a big freeze. When I had a pond before I saw a good
2-3 inches of ice - used a football to provide air.
Maybe if I dig down an extra couple of feet where I can without going into
the soakaway this might provide additional sanctuary for the fish - and
have
the bulk of it 2-3 feet with a heater - what do you think?

## That should work. You also need to keep a hole in the ice for air/gas
exchange. My heaters usually keep a small hole open - but then the pools
are only 150 gallons each. My bigger ponds (800 and 2000 gallons) don't
usually freeze over in winter. If they do it's only for a day or so. A
small cheap pump keeps an opening in the ice.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." :-)
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Gill

What part of the country are you in? Folks routinely get by with ponds
of 2 1/2 to 3 feet deep up in Rhode Island and Pennnsylvania during
winter months, and not all of them use a heater, but do maintain an
opening in the ice. A simple air pump will work in most cases to keep
a hole in the ice........but an external temporary shelter made out of
PVC pipe framework covered in plastic sheeting does a lot of good as
well. It doe snot matter if your pond is 4 feet deep and it only
freezes to 3 feet the fish will still be ok..............with or
without a heater. Running a heater is not cheap.......

==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o

~Roy~ wrote:
Gill

What part of the country are you in? Folks routinely get by with ponds
of 2 1/2 to 3 feet deep up in Rhode Island and Pennnsylvania during
winter months, and not all of them use a heater, but do maintain an
opening in the ice. A simple air pump will work in most cases to keep
a hole in the ice........but an external temporary shelter made out of
PVC pipe framework covered in plastic sheeting does a lot of good as
well. It doe snot matter if your pond is 4 feet deep and it only
freezes to 3 feet the fish will still be ok..............with or
without a heater. Running a heater is not cheap.......

==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o
I assume we are talking 2.5 to 3 feet below ground.

"~Roy~" wrote in message
...
Gill

What part of the country are you in? Folks routinely get by with ponds
of 2 1/2 to 3 feet deep up in Rhode Island and Pennnsylvania during
winter months, and not all of them use a heater, but do maintain an
opening in the ice. A simple air pump will work in most cases to keep
a hole in the ice........but an external temporary shelter made out of
PVC pipe framework covered in plastic sheeting does a lot of good as
well. It doe snot matter if your pond is 4 feet deep and it only
freezes to 3 feet the fish will still be ok..............with or
without a heater. Running a heater is not cheap.......

==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o

I'm in the South East of England...I have seen frost freeze at least 18
inches of stagnent water (in a wheelbarrow). Plus I had a pond here once
that was around 30inches and the ice didn't seem to kill the fish - the
location did
:-( ....under trees - a lesson hard learnt that has put me off for a good 5
years from trying again...this time I think we have the location right...

Running a heater is not a cheap option but when we already run 6 on the
tropicals I guess one more won't hurt.....I did the ball thing the first
year of my original pond and it seemed to work....

If I get coerced, (which seems quite likely) into the Koi, from what I've
read they would actually appreciate the extra depth....what do you think?

BTW if I gardened naked the colour I would go is blue - LOL

Gill

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .
Hi All,

After lurking on this group for a few months and a lot of research
elsewhere
I am almost ready to finalize the plans for our pond.

We will most likely be using pond liner due to the area to be covered and
the fact that it won't be completely square or rectangular. The structure
will be decking panels. I will probably need to put a grid in short-term
because of my 4 year old daughter. We are planning to keep fish in here -
hubbie wants Koi but this is still up for debate.

The pond is going to be raised around 2-3 foot above ground level. I was
wondering if we need to dig below the surface at all as well? The problem
is
that our soakaway runs around six inches below where the end of the pond
is
going to be. Of course there is the possibility to dig deeper at the other
end of where the pond is planned for.

Any thoughts on this would be helpful - especially on the need to dig and
if
yes how deep?

Thanks
Gill

I gather a soakaway is a sprinkler system?

You should be able to combine all of your ideas to make this work.

1) Dig down a bit where you can.
2) Insulate the above ground part. You could use the dirt from the hole.
3) Cover (insulate) the top in winter. Since you're building this into a
deck, it should be fairly simple.
4) Your heater only needs to keep the water around 39°F. This will keep your
electric bills down. I only needed
a 300W heater to keep my 500 gallon pond heated in the wilds of Canada.
The heater only ran an hour or so a
day.

"Bill Stock" wrote in message
...

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .
Hi All,

After lurking on this group for a few months and a lot of research
elsewhere
I am almost ready to finalize the plans for our pond.

We will most likely be using pond liner due to the area to be covered
and
the fact that it won't be completely square or rectangular. The
structure
will be decking panels. I will probably need to put a grid in short-term
because of my 4 year old daughter. We are planning to keep fish in
here -
hubbie wants Koi but this is still up for debate.

The pond is going to be raised around 2-3 foot above ground level. I was
wondering if we need to dig below the surface at all as well? The
problem
is
that our soakaway runs around six inches below where the end of the pond
is
going to be. Of course there is the possibility to dig deeper at the
other
end of where the pond is planned for.

Any thoughts on this would be helpful - especially on the need to dig
and
if
yes how deep?

Thanks
Gill

I gather a soakaway is a sprinkler system?

You should be able to combine all of your ideas to make this work.

1) Dig down a bit where you can.
2) Insulate the above ground part. You could use the dirt from the hole.
3) Cover (insulate) the top in winter. Since you're building this into a
deck, it should be fairly simple.
4) Your heater only needs to keep the water around 39°F. This will keep
your
electric bills down. I only needed
a 300W heater to keep my 500 gallon pond heated in the wilds of
Canada.
The heater only ran an hour or so a
day.



The soakaway is a very, very solid bit of clay piping that takes the water
via downpipes from the roof away from the foundations of the house....it
then trickles through a lot of rubble into the soil....very common in
England.

The pond will be above the deck level but actually covering it in winter
shouldn't be too much of an issue.....

I guess if we are going for Koi (and I'm not totally convinced as I have 6
tanks in the house to maintain) the deeper the better....

But really what you are saying is that if we do a decent depth and consider
a heater digging should not be too much of an issue?

Gill

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .

"~Roy~" wrote in message
...


DUH!


On Sun, 15 May 2005 15:34:51 -0500, "Reel McKoi" of
mumbled something to the effect of:


===If it deep freezes where you live you would need some kind of heater
to keep
===an area unfrozen - or dig below the frost line. As you know the
fish will
===not survive being frozen solid.

Give the folks a break. I am sure they are well aware most fish would
not take kindly to being encased in a block of ice...........And you
did not answer the question either.

YOu can get my with most any depth, but deeper is better in the colder
climes, as you can take advantage of warmer ground temps and if you
install a stock tank heater you can get my with even shallower depths.
Don't take it for granted if the frost level is only 2 feet your safe
at 3 feet......odds are it will bite you one day. A lot of folks have
kept fish in the cold climes at depths of 3 feet or less with the use
of a heater in the pond, or with a shelter over the pond with a bit of
heat inside.......Personally I would make it as deep as I could, and
if it turns out its not quite deep enough add a heat source, or move
fish indoors during winter season as a lot also do.




==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o

Moving the fish indoors is not an option - we are already over-run with
tropical tanks - 6 at the last count and more planned he, he....a heater is
a good option and one I have already thought of....

Our winters vary....this year was very mild down here but not in the rest of
the UK where there was a big freeze. When I had a pond before I saw a good
2-3 inches of ice - used a football to provide air.

Maybe if I dig down an extra couple of feet where I can without going into
the soakaway this might provide additional sanctuary for the fish - and have
the bulk of it 2-3 feet with a heater - what do you think?

Thanks
Gill


You can contact your local university (a geology department) and find out how
deep the frostline is (the depth at which the soil will freeze over the winter)
in your area, then you should dig at least 5-6 inches to a foot below (deeper is
even better) to make sure that your pond will not freeze solid during a hard
winter. The frostline here is at 22 inches, so the deepest part of my pond
27"deep (but it is also 18 inches aboveground - surrounded and structural held
by 6 inch x 6 inch timbers, so the total depth is 45 inches). I also use an
aerator in the winter and keep my waterfall going as long as possible. When the
water gets around 40 F, I keep the aewrator going, turn off the waterfall, and I
use start to use a pond deicer, which works very well in keeping the worst of
the ice off the surface of the pond. If you decide on raising Koi (they get
large, but are a joy to raise), the aerator will be very important in the
winter, especially if you turn off any circulation you may have. Koi get much
larger than goldfish, and have a higher oxygen demand. Also, if you raise Koi,
you really should have a filtration system. It doesn't have to be expensive, it
just has to work, and preferably be easy to maintain. I hope this helps, and
feel free to come back and ask more questions (and do ignore the trolls). Good
luck.

For the part of the pond that is above ground, it would be a good idea to
use a styrofoam or similar insulation board to help the pond retain as much
heat as possible. Do not insulate under the bottom, as heat will come up
through the soil to help keep the pond critters at about 4C, 40F. The
exposed sides will carry heat away quicker than a submerged pond, but
insulated, it should be doable.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .
Hi All,

After lurking on this group for a few months and a lot of research
elsewhere
I am almost ready to finalize the plans for our pond.

We will most likely be using pond liner due to the area to be covered and
the fact that it won't be completely square or rectangular. The structure
will be decking panels. I will probably need to put a grid in short-term
because of my 4 year old daughter. We are planning to keep fish in here -
hubbie wants Koi but this is still up for debate.

The pond is going to be raised around 2-3 foot above ground level. I was
wondering if we need to dig below the surface at all as well? The problem
is
that our soakaway runs around six inches below where the end of the pond
is
going to be. Of course there is the possibility to dig deeper at the other
end of where the pond is planned for.

Any thoughts on this would be helpful - especially on the need to dig and
if
yes how deep?

Thanks
Gill

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .

"~Roy~" wrote in message
...
Gill

What part of the country are you in? Folks routinely get by with ponds
of 2 1/2 to 3 feet deep up in Rhode Island and Pennnsylvania during
winter months, and not all of them use a heater, but do maintain an
opening in the ice. A simple air pump will work in most cases to keep
a hole in the ice........but an external temporary shelter made out of
PVC pipe framework covered in plastic sheeting does a lot of good as
well. It doe snot matter if your pond is 4 feet deep and it only
freezes to 3 feet the fish will still be ok..............with or
without a heater. Running a heater is not cheap.......

==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o

I'm in the South East of England...I have seen frost freeze at least 18
inches of stagnent water (in a wheelbarrow). Plus I had a pond here once
that was around 30inches and the ice didn't seem to kill the fish - the
location did
:-( ....under trees - a lesson hard learnt that has put me off for a good 5
years from trying again...this time I think we have the location right...

Running a heater is not a cheap option but when we already run 6 on the
tropicals I guess one more won't hurt.....I did the ball thing the first
year of my original pond and it seemed to work....

If I get coerced, (which seems quite likely) into the Koi, from what I've
read they would actually appreciate the extra depth....what do you think?

BTW if I gardened naked the colour I would go is blue - LOL

Gill


Why should having your pond under your trees kill your fish? Are they
poisonous? Did they fall into the pond? Of course, you will get debris falling
off them, and leaves in the fall, but you can always pull it out. Regular
maintenance should take care of that problem. In fact, having to regularly
remove debris from the pond has actually made me a better ponder, since I pay
more attention to details. My pond is located partially under a neighbors'
large pin oak tree (it partially grows over the fenceline and shades the part of
my property where the pond is located). I have actually found it to be
beneficial for the pond since it provides shade for the entire morning, so that
the only time the pond is in direct sunlight (all day sun is will usually help
create a real algae monster) is in the afternoon. By evening, the sun is on the
other side of the house, so the pond goes back in shade. As for Koi, as I said
in another post, Koi are wonderful, but can be destructive of plants when they
get large. But they are a lot of fun to raise. I've raised several large
species (I also have a 10 lbs albino channel catfish in the pond), and I have
yet to find a large fish that I like raising better than the Koi (well, I am
partial to the one big cat - he does have quite a personality). But Koi truly
are remarkable fish.

Here is an small movie (in .mov format) of my pond from last year:

http://home.insightbb.com/~jryates/catfish_eating.MOV

"George" wrote in message
news:MmQhe.80298$r53.16454@attbi_s21...

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .

"~Roy~" wrote in message
...


DUH!


On Sun, 15 May 2005 15:34:51 -0500, "Reel McKoi" of
mumbled something to the effect of:


===If it deep freezes where you live you would need some kind of
heater
to keep
===an area unfrozen - or dig below the frost line. As you know the
fish will
===not survive being frozen solid.

Give the folks a break. I am sure they are well aware most fish would
not take kindly to being encased in a block of ice...........And you
did not answer the question either.

YOu can get my with most any depth, but deeper is better in the colder
climes, as you can take advantage of warmer ground temps and if you
install a stock tank heater you can get my with even shallower depths.
Don't take it for granted if the frost level is only 2 feet your safe
at 3 feet......odds are it will bite you one day. A lot of folks have
kept fish in the cold climes at depths of 3 feet or less with the use
of a heater in the pond, or with a shelter over the pond with a bit of
heat inside.......Personally I would make it as deep as I could, and
if it turns out its not quite deep enough add a heat source, or move
fish indoors during winter season as a lot also do.




==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o

Moving the fish indoors is not an option - we are already over-run with
tropical tanks - 6 at the last count and more planned he, he....a heater
is
a good option and one I have already thought of....

Our winters vary....this year was very mild down here but not in the
rest of
the UK where there was a big freeze. When I had a pond before I saw a
good
2-3 inches of ice - used a football to provide air.

Maybe if I dig down an extra couple of feet where I can without going
into
the soakaway this might provide additional sanctuary for the fish - and
have
the bulk of it 2-3 feet with a heater - what do you think?

Thanks
Gill


You can contact your local university (a geology department) and find out
how
deep the frostline is (the depth at which the soil will freeze over the
winter)
in your area, then you should dig at least 5-6 inches to a foot below
(deeper is
even better) to make sure that your pond will not freeze solid during a
hard
winter. The frostline here is at 22 inches, so the deepest part of my
pond
27"deep (but it is also 18 inches aboveground - surrounded and structural
held
by 6 inch x 6 inch timbers, so the total depth is 45 inches). I also use
an
aerator in the winter and keep my waterfall going as long as possible.
When the
water gets around 40 F, I keep the aewrator going, turn off the waterfall,
and I
use start to use a pond deicer, which works very well in keeping the worst
of
the ice off the surface of the pond. If you decide on raising Koi (they
get
large, but are a joy to raise), the aerator will be very important in the
winter, especially if you turn off any circulation you may have. Koi get
much
larger than goldfish, and have a higher oxygen demand. Also, if you raise
Koi,
you really should have a filtration system. It doesn't have to be
expensive, it
just has to work, and preferably be easy to maintain. I hope this helps,
and
feel free to come back and ask more questions (and do ignore the trolls).
Good
luck.



Thanks George,
I will speak to the local Uni - my Mother works there...and btw it was this
ng that taught me about killfiles - lol - have been monitoring for 3 months
plus - learnt more than I ever wanted to about things I never wanted to
think about....IMO the more "pond related" questions we all ask the better
even if from beginners....lets flood it with fish questions.....but that is
another topic....

I'm looking into filtration systems....at the moment I quite fancy the idea
of including the filtration in an upper level which will eventually become a
waterfall type of thing into the main pond....this will almost certainly
need to be custom I think....on the majority of my large tropical tanks I
have external filters with a variety of media which work very well and
certainly external filtration is an option...but my thought is maybe I feed
through this on the upper level, filter it there and then cascade the water
down is an alternative.....now obviously the cascade will be central so on
the other side I'm looking at heavily planting

Gill

"George" wrote in message
news:gAQhe.80318$r53.12639@attbi_s21...

"Gill Passman" gillspamattaylorpassmanspam.co.uk wrote in message
.. .

"~Roy~" wrote in message
...
Gill

What part of the country are you in? Folks routinely get by with ponds
of 2 1/2 to 3 feet deep up in Rhode Island and Pennnsylvania during
winter months, and not all of them use a heater, but do maintain an
opening in the ice. A simple air pump will work in most cases to keep
a hole in the ice........but an external temporary shelter made out of
PVC pipe framework covered in plastic sheeting does a lot of good as
well. It doe snot matter if your pond is 4 feet deep and it only
freezes to 3 feet the fish will still be ok..............with or
without a heater. Running a heater is not cheap.......

==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!

~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o

I'm in the South East of England...I have seen frost freeze at least 18
inches of stagnent water (in a wheelbarrow). Plus I had a pond here once
that was around 30inches and the ice didn't seem to kill the fish - the
location did
:-( ....under trees - a lesson hard learnt that has put me off for a
good 5
years from trying again...this time I think we have the location
right...

Running a heater is not a cheap option but when we already run 6 on the
tropicals I guess one more won't hurt.....I did the ball thing the first
year of my original pond and it seemed to work....

If I get coerced, (which seems quite likely) into the Koi, from what
I've
read they would actually appreciate the extra depth....what do you
think?

BTW if I gardened naked the colour I would go is blue - LOL

Gill


Why should having your pond under your trees kill your fish? Are they
poisonous? Did they fall into the pond? Of course, you will get debris
falling
off them, and leaves in the fall, but you can always pull it out. Regular
maintenance should take care of that problem. In fact, having to
regularly
remove debris from the pond has actually made me a better ponder, since I
pay
more attention to details. My pond is located partially under a
neighbors'
large pin oak tree (it partially grows over the fenceline and shades the
part of
my property where the pond is located). I have actually found it to be
beneficial for the pond since it provides shade for the entire morning, so
that
the only time the pond is in direct sunlight (all day sun is will usually
help
create a real algae monster) is in the afternoon. By evening, the sun is
on the
other side of the house, so the pond goes back in shade. As for Koi, as I
said
in another post, Koi are wonderful, but can be destructive of plants when
they
get large. But they are a lot of fun to raise. I've raised several large
species (I also have a 10 lbs albino channel catfish in the pond), and I
have
yet to find a large fish that I like raising better than the Koi (well, I
am
partial to the one big cat - he does have quite a personality). But Koi
truly
are remarkable fish.

Here is an small movie (in .mov format) of my pond from last year:

http://home.insightbb.com/~jryates/catfish_eating.MOV



The trees in question are sycamores....I spend almost a daily battle
identifying them and pulling them out of my garden right now....even over
150 feet from the source....When we had the pond up there I struggled
pulling out the dead leaves 2-4 times a week from the pond til it became to
dark for me to do this after work......never, ever again will I put a pond
up there.

I know, now, that I could have done a lot more....but if there are easier
places in the garden to site a pond I'm all for it.....BTW that lawn needs
to go in a few years...we all hate mowing....great place for a natural pond
......lol