Hello! My wife and I are considering doing a backyard pond, but being
the type of person who's not going to jump into this totally blind, I
have been doing research to help figure out what this entails.

To summarize, we're thinking of combining together a garden railroad
and pond area. Nothing like combining two addictive and potentially
expensive hobbies, huh? :-)

We're looking at a pond of approximately 4x8 in size (freehand edge of
relatively oval shape), and a depth of 2-3 feet max. This will be
incorporated into a garden railroad of approximately 10x20 feet in size.
Hopefully the pond and railroad will compliment each other nicely.
We like the sound of cascading water, so are thinking about
incorporating a trickling stream feature which will fall about 2-3
feet over the width of the railroad (start the stream at one end,
and have the pond at the other end).

No waterfall is planned, as we like the sounds of babbling brooks much
more than cascading torrents. In addition, we might have a small
fountain feature in the pond to add interest and to keep water moving.
Definately some water plants will be incorporated into the pond area,
and we are most likely going to incorporate some small fish (goldfish
type swimmers, no plans for Koi or other larger fish that wouldn't
work well with a smaller pond like we're thinking).

For reference, we're in Iowa; and the location gets sun from morning
until late afternoon and there is a basswood (linden) tree nearby that
will no doubt contribute its leaves and flowers to the pond as they
fall according to the seasons.

Now, to the questions. :-)

- By my calculations, we're looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of
500 gallons. Does this sound accurate? When calculating volume of
a pond, does one figure in the amount of water in a stream feature, or
just the "pond" itself?

- For what we're thinking, is some sort of filter required, or will we
do OK without one? If algae becomes a problem, a UV filter would
obviously be required, but we aren't sure about the need for normal
day-to-day mechanical filtering.

- My thought for the pond/stream would be to sit the pump in the pond
as far away from the stream as possible, and then pump the water up to
the top and let it cascade down the stream. Should this give sufficient
flow through the pond to avoid stagnant spots (assuming that I orient
the stream output and pump on opposite ends of the long dimension of the
pond area).

- How does one figure out ahead of time how much pump to buy for a
stream? For pump longevity I'm not thrilled about buying a pump of
significantly higher capacity than needed and then valving it down to
the appropriate volume (too hard on the pump) My first thought would
be to build the stream, figure out what the flow from my garden hose is,
and then experiment with different hose flow rates until I get something
I like and then buy the right sized pump based on that flow rate and
head height? Is there a better method than this?

- Would it be better to buy one pump to run both the stream and water
feature, or is it better to have one pump for the stream and another
for the fountain feature? Or, should I figure out the turnover rate
needed (500 gal / 2 hours) and buy a pump for that rate (taking into
account the head height of the stream), and then valve and divert that
flow as needed for the stream, fountain, and any other water uses
desired?

- Like many who have ponds, we're concerned about mosquitos, and aren't
sure whether just having a stream and spraying fountain will prevent
eggs being layed/hatched (due to moving water), or if more serious
methods of mosquito control are required? I'm not thrilled about
running the pump 24x7, and would prefer to run it only during daytime
hours. However, this would give a good 10-12 hours of nighttime still
water that would be heaven for the skeeters.

- Would we need to bring the goldfish in each winter, or would they
survive under the ice? We can get pretty cold here in Iowa (down to
-20F a couple times a year at least with spells of several days at a
time of below 0 temps), and I'd be concerned that they'd either get
too cold and freeze, or the pond would freeze solid to the bottom,
since I'm looking at an average max depth of about 30". Also, due
to the lay of the land, part of the pond will be in a raised-bed
situation, so won't be insulated by the dirt below-grade.

- Would I be really wise to include a bottom drain in the plan, or for
something this small is that not really required? (FWIW, I'm planning
on using EPDM for the pond lining, without gravel or other bottom
material on top of the rubber).

- Are there other issues beyond what I listed above that my wife and I
need to be concerned about as we plan this pond (other than the
addictive nature and potential expenses)?

Sorry about the length of this post, but thanks for any potential
feedback!

Scott

Scott Evans wrote:

To summarize, we're thinking of combining together a garden railroad
and pond area. Nothing like combining two addictive and potentially
expensive hobbies, huh? :-)

Oooooh. I like this idea. You could recreate "The Bridge Over the River
Kwai."

Joe



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Scott Evans wrote:

- By my calculations, we're looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of
500 gallons. Does this sound accurate? When calculating volume of
a pond, does one figure in the amount of water in a stream feature, or
just the "pond" itself?

4x8x3x7.5= 720 gallons. For pump and filters sizes I would include the size
of the stream.

- For what we're thinking, is some sort of filter required, or will we
do OK without one? If algae becomes a problem, a UV filter would
obviously be required, but we aren't sure about the need for normal
day-to-day mechanical filtering.

In the long run you'll be happier with a filter. This doesn't have to be
anything fancy and veggie filter would probably do. You might wish to
consider a skimmer. I have one and love it. It takes the crud that's
floating on top and is also a very good place to house your pump.

- My thought for the pond/stream would be to sit the pump in the pond
as far away from the stream as possible, and then pump the water up to
the top and let it cascade down the stream. Should this give sufficient
flow through the pond to avoid stagnant spots (assuming that I orient
the stream output and pump on opposite ends of the long dimension of the
pond area).

See my note above, but if you don't want a skimmer then yes, pump at one end
of pond, stream enters opposite.

- How does one figure out ahead of time how much pump to buy for a
stream? For pump longevity I'm not thrilled about buying a pump of
significantly higher capacity than needed and then valving it down to
the appropriate volume (too hard on the pump) My first thought would
be to build the stream, figure out what the flow from my garden hose is,
and then experiment with different hose flow rates until I get something
I like and then buy the right sized pump based on that flow rate and
head height? Is there a better method than this?

Don't buy a oversized pump - you just pay for electricity. The pump will
work hard no matter how down valved. If you have a equipment rental place
near you, go rent a couple of pumps and hook them up. This will give you a
ROUGH idea. Pumps are like amplifiers, they are all spec'd to look good.


- Would it be better to buy one pump to run both the stream and water
feature, or is it better to have one pump for the stream and another
for the fountain feature? Or, should I figure out the turnover rate
needed (500 gal / 2 hours) and buy a pump for that rate (taking into
account the head height of the stream), and then valve and divert that
flow as needed for the stream, fountain, and any other water uses
desired?

- Like many who have ponds, we're concerned about mosquitos, and aren't
sure whether just having a stream and spraying fountain will prevent
eggs being layed/hatched (due to moving water), or if more serious
methods of mosquito control are required? I'm not thrilled about
running the pump 24x7, and would prefer to run it only during daytime
hours. However, this would give a good 10-12 hours of nighttime still
water that would be heaven for the skeeters.
If you put fish in it, you should run it continually to keep the biological
filter critters working. Mosquitoes can be controlled quite well by the fish
in the pond or you can get a variety of BT that you can put in the water
that will kill them with no harm to anything else.

- Would we need to bring the goldfish in each winter, or would they
survive under the ice? We can get pretty cold here in Iowa (down to
-20F a couple times a year at least with spells of several days at a
time of below 0 temps), and I'd be concerned that they'd either get
too cold and freeze, or the pond would freeze solid to the bottom,
since I'm looking at an average max depth of about 30". Also, due
to the lay of the land, part of the pond will be in a raised-bed
situation, so won't be insulated by the dirt below-grade.

Sorry - I live in San Diego. Every once in a while I can see the snow
covered mountains from here. Close as I want to get to frost.

- Would I be really wise to include a bottom drain in the plan, or for
something this small is that not really required? (FWIW, I'm planning
on using EPDM for the pond lining, without gravel or other bottom
material on top of the rubber).

The new stuff is very easy to install. I installed one ( check out this link
for a combo skimmer/bottom drain:

http://www.purifalls.com/



- Are there other issues beyond what I listed above that my wife and I
need to be concerned about as we plan this pond (other than the
addictive nature and potential expenses)?

Do you have enough room in your yard for a second pond?


Joe



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Scott Evans wrote:
Hello! My wife and I are considering doing a backyard pond, but being
the type of person who's not going to jump into this totally blind, I
have been doing research to help figure out what this entails.

To summarize, we're thinking of combining together a garden railroad
and pond area. Nothing like combining two addictive and potentially
expensive hobbies, huh? :-)

wish I could but to yor questions your plan sounds good
a small filter would help keep it clean
yes figure in the stream too for total volume
with a couple goldfish should be no skeeter problem
diverting the pump would probably be simplest

hope this helps some


John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

Take a look at:

Water Features and Garden Railroads
http://www.btcomm.com/trains/primer/water.htm

"John Rutz" wrote in message
...


Scott Evans wrote:
Hello! My wife and I are considering doing a backyard pond, but being
the type of person who's not going to jump into this totally blind, I
have been doing research to help figure out what this entails.

To summarize, we're thinking of combining together a garden railroad
and pond area. Nothing like combining two addictive and potentially
expensive hobbies, huh? :-)

wish I could but to yor questions your plan sounds good
a small filter would help keep it clean
yes figure in the stream too for total volume
with a couple goldfish should be no skeeter problem
diverting the pump would probably be simplest

hope this helps some


John Rutz
Z5 New Mexico

good judgement comes from bad experience, and that comes from bad
judgement

see my pond at:

http://www.fuerjefe.com

You can use Mosquito Dunks to control mosquitoes.

You might end up with frogs, toads and the resulting tadpoles next spring. With
enough water and plants they should do okay. You can try netting out the eggs,
or netting the pond during breeding season,
early spring for most frogs/toads. All summer for bullfrogs.
What you don't want to have happen is a zillion eggs, an ammonia spike and a
pond full of dead tadpoles.
Building a simple filter around your pump can help if you find yourself running
a frog/toad love motel.

Planning a pond for netting saves a lot of hassle in the fall or in the spring.

I'd double the pond from 500 to, at least, 1000 gallons. Bigger ponds are more
forgiving and everybody always thinks they should have gone
bigger. I have a 3,000 gallon pond and an 800 gallon
bog. :-)


k30a

"Scott Evans" wrote in message
...
Hello! My wife and I are considering doing a backyard pond, but being
the type of person who's not going to jump into this totally blind, I
have been doing research to help figure out what this entails.

- Would we need to bring the goldfish in each winter, or would they
survive under the ice? We can get pretty cold here in Iowa (down to
-20F a couple times a year at least with spells of several days at a
time of below 0 temps), and I'd be concerned that they'd either get
too cold and freeze, or the pond would freeze solid to the bottom,
since I'm looking at an average max depth of about 30".

I live in zone 5b (NE Ohio) and have successfully wintered over both comets
and goldfish for years. Just remember to keep the water aerated (I bought a
little aquarium pump and some flexible tubing) and always have an opening in
the ice. I also sank a large PVC "y" connector for my 4 fish to take cover
in. My pond is similar in dimension to yours, so I imagine you could do the
same successfully. I also invested in a floating pond heater. It is donut
shaped and maintains a hole in the ice. Doesn't cost much to run at all.

NJ

"joe" wrote in message
...
.. You might wish to
consider a skimmer. I have one and love it. It takes the crud that's
floating on top and is also a very good place to house your pump.

My pond is similar in dimension to yours. We have a PondSweep skimmer and
love it. Very easy to maintain and my water is clear all the time. I added
a filter mat that has embedded barley straw, and due to a mysterious influx
of snails last summer, added a pump sock (a glorified wrap-around filter in
a bag sort of arrangement that you put the pump into) to prevent snails from
ever clogging the pump again.

YMMV,
NJ

*** ATTENTION PEOPLE ***
Scott here seems to think he has no plans for buying koi in the future. We need to help him out.
He's in a serious case of denile!


Scott Evans wrote:

- By my calculations, we're looking at somewhere in the neighborhood of
500 gallons. Does this sound accurate?

500 gallons seems a bit small to me, even if you have no plans for koi. You may not want them now,
buts let's face it, you -will- want them later. I'd say make the pond at least 1,000 gallons, if not
much more. Larger ponds are easier to maintain as well because harmful changes in water chemistry
take place much slower with more water. I'd say make your pond 5,000 - 7,000 gallons to house the
koi -you will- buy later on. )

- For what we're thinking, is some sort of filter required, or will we
do OK without one? If algae becomes a problem, a UV filter would
obviously be required, but we aren't sure about the need for normal
day-to-day mechanical filtering.

Get the filter. You cannot have too much filtration! The koi you'll get later on will appreciate it.
Do a Google search for threads on algae solving ideas.

- My thought for the pond/stream would be to sit the pump in the pond
as far away from the stream as possible, and then pump the water up to
the top and let it cascade down the stream. Should this give sufficient
flow through the pond to avoid stagnant spots (assuming that I orient
the stream output and pump on opposite ends of the long dimension of the
pond area).

My pond is set up this way. Water evaporates a lot faster with this configuration, and you may get
tired of the noise at night when trying to sleep. In the Summer heat the water will oxygenate rather
nicely as it cascades over the rocks in the waterfall.

- How does one figure out ahead of time how much pump to buy for a
stream? For pump longevity I'm not thrilled about buying a pump of
significantly higher capacity than needed and then valving it down to
the appropriate volume (too hard on the pump).

My 1,200 GPH pumps works fine for me - see below. But again, rethink your plans so they take into
consideration the koi you will end up buying later on.

- Would it be better to buy one pump to run both the stream and water
feature, or is it better to have one pump for the stream and another
for the fountain feature? Or, should I figure out the turnover rate
needed (500 gal / 2 hours) and buy a pump for that rate (taking into
account the head height of the stream), and then valve and divert that
flow as needed for the stream, fountain, and any other water uses
desired?

My current pond filter with the waterfall is powered by one 1,200 GPH pump, and it works just fine.
Actually, it needs to have a bypass line back into the pond because the pump is too powerfull. The
pump sends the water to the top of the waterfall (about 4 feet up). Then the water goes through a
box filter, and exits that and on down the waterfall it goes.

- Like many who have ponds, we're concerned about mosquitos,

Don't be. The fish will gobble them up like candy!

- Would we need to bring the goldfish in each winter, or would they
survive under the ice?

My pond is about 3 feet deep, and our Winters get into the teens for several weeks, with snow as
well. Never had any problems with the fish. The pond should be deeper, say, 4-5 feet deep.

- Would I be really wise to include a bottom drain in the plan, or for
something this small is that not really required? (FWIW, I'm planning
on using EPDM for the pond lining, without gravel or other bottom
material on top of the rubber).

For something just 500 gallons, a siphon tube ought to do the trick.

- Are there other issues beyond what I listed above that my wife and I
need to be concerned about as we plan this pond (other than the
addictive nature and potential expenses)?

You just answered your own question! "other than the addictive nature and potential expenses..." So,
knowing this ahead of time, you KNOW you'll end up buying koi at some time in the future. Denile is
not just a river in Egypt, ya know.

- David

"David Larson" wrote in message
...
*** ATTENTION PEOPLE ***
Scott here seems to think he has no plans for buying koi in the future. We
need to help him out.
He's in a serious case of denile!




bwwahhhhhh haaaahhhhaaaaaaaaa
yea that is what "I" thought too,,, do NOT get koi, I told myself, they will
eventually trash your pond........
mmm.
& I didn't listen..........
(GOLD fish color is wayyyyyyyy too boring)

: )

Well, thanks to all who've been so kind in offering advice, web sites,
and other information. After serious consideration, we've decided that
for the time being we're going to put this pond/railroad idea on the
back burner, since the location I have in mind really wouldn't support
a pond of the size we're thinking about, considering all of the things
needed, and the obvious eventuality of needing space for Koi. :-)

Our current site would be impossible to get machinery in, so making a
pond of 1000+ gallons would mean that I'd need to dig and dispose of
1000+ "gallons" of soil/roots/rock by hand, which is not something
I'd wish on anyone. I know people do it, but those are ones who are
already addicted to ponds and Koi and can't seem to help themselves but
be gluttons for punshment. I'd rather let machines do my digging.

I do have some additional questions, though, as I continue to dream
about plans for the future.

Assuming that I will eventually have a 1000+ gallon pond and use some
sort of flexible liner; how does one keep roots from encroaching on the
liner and potentially poking through the liner into the water and causing
damage and water loss? It would seem to me that putting a liner is is a
very permanent operation, and that a liner replacement would pretty much
be a very large deal both in regards to hassle and time.

I've been reading quite a bit of the posts in rec.ponds, and have a some
questions on filters. Obviously, a pre-filter and/or skimmer would be
used to keep the pump from seeing large particulate (sticks, leaves,
etc) matter. However, is a veggie filter just a natural form of a
biological filter, or do they serve different functions?

In doing some reading, it seems that especially with Koi, maintaining a
sufficient oxygen level is critical. However, I haven't seen anything
about whether it'd be possible to get too much oxygen in the water
possibly leading to algae problems not due to other issues (overfeeding,
sunlight, etc.) Is there such a thing to worry about as too much
oxygen, or can I waterfall, bubble, and fountain to my heart's delight
and not worry about overdoing it? I'd think that maybe running a
waterfall during the day and then a bubbler at night would work well as
a compromise between the cost of running a waterfall pump 24 hours a
day and making sure the fish had enough oxygen.

Also, in regards to Koi, how much do they really cost for some
small-fry type fish of "pet quality" (rather than show) that will look
nice in the pond, but wouldn't break the bank (or my heart) if a
predator might happen to take a liking to a few. Obviously I can get
some goldfish relatively cheaply from the local pet store, but I don't
see much information on the WWW in regards to what a few starter Koi of
average quality would cost.

Scott

Scott Evans wrote:

Our current site would be impossible to get machinery in, so making a
pond of 1000+ gallons would mean that I'd need to dig and dispose of
1000+ "gallons" of soil/roots/rock by hand, which is not something
I'd wish on anyone. I know people do it, but those are ones who are
already addicted to ponds and Koi and can't seem to help themselves but
be gluttons for punshment. I'd rather let machines do my digging.

Scott,

Me too. When I dug my pond, I was able to find an excavator (small back hoe)
that went between the posts of a fence that was only 4' wide (I'd have to
measure to tell you for sure) and also a bobcat sized the same. Both were
available from my equipment rental place.

Joe



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Scott Evans wrote:

However, is a veggie filter just a natural form of a
biological filter, or do they serve different functions?
Sort of. The biological filter has little bacteria that cling to whatever
surfaces they can find and eat the nasty stuff in the pond. A veggie filter
is really just an area that the pond water flows through with lots of plants
in it that do a good job of removing nutrients from the water - water
hyacinth come to mind.

In doing some reading, it seems that especially with Koi, maintaining a
sufficient oxygen level is critical. However, I haven't seen anything
about whether it'd be possible to get too much oxygen in the water
possibly leading to algae problems not due to other issues (overfeeding,
sunlight, etc.) Is there such a thing to worry about as too much
oxygen, or can I waterfall, bubble, and fountain to my heart's delight
and not worry about overdoing it? I'd think that maybe running a
waterfall during the day and then a bubbler at night would work well as
a compromise between the cost of running a waterfall pump 24 hours a
day and making sure the fish had enough oxygen.
From what I understand, the main issue with not running your pump 24/7 is
that stopping it will halt delivery of oxygen to the afore mentioned little
bacteria and they die.

Also, in regards to Koi, how much do they really cost for some
small-fry type fish of "pet quality" (rather than show) that will look
nice in the pond, but wouldn't break the bank (or my heart) if a
predator might happen to take a liking to a few. Obviously I can get
some goldfish relatively cheaply from the local pet store, but I don't
see much information on the WWW in regards to what a few starter Koi of
average quality would cost.
I had a pond several years ago and would have sworn I bought a Koi for $5.
The cheapest ones I bought last year were $35.

Price doesn't have anything to do with breaking your heart. It's when you
give them names. All of ours are gone.

Joe



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(Scott Evans) wrote:

I've been reading quite a bit of the posts in rec.ponds, and have a some
questions on filters. Obviously, a pre-filter and/or skimmer would be
used to keep the pump from seeing large particulate (sticks, leaves,
etc) matter. However, is a veggie filter just a natural form of a
biological filter, or do they serve different functions?

Yes a veggie filter is a natural form of biological filter.

While the plants do take up some nutrients directly, I'm guessing after
looking at the root mass on some plants, that in fact, it is the natural
bacteria, on the surface areas doing the bulk of the work.

Veggie filters can be prettier as well.