Andrew Heggie wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:02:34 -0000, "Jim Webster"
wrote:

every bovine animal has to have two ear tags, its passport, every
movement off one holding onto another has to be reported. Even Zoos
have
to do this.


How is this policed and what are the regulations for other cloven
hooved animals?

I brought back in the x posting because Gordon and others might find
this interesting

"Trading Standards Officers" turn up at auction marts and check animals,
so most auction marts police it anyway to cover themselves.
The "Rural Payments agency have a rolling programme of random checks,
which intent to check every farm at least once in five years but more
often for larger farms. These checks are reckonned by the RPA to take an
average of about three days, most happen at a couple of hours notice,
and every animal has its eartag checked, plus they go through all your
movement records andwill checkthem against other peoples records.
Various bodies such as Trading Standards departments can turn up (an do)
unannounced to see you movement documents, it the documents are not up
to date you are locked down until the authorities are happy with them,
which can take six months.
Then there are fines and penalties.


I have an ulterior motive for wishing to know a bit more following a
dead cow arriving on some land near me. It strikes me it should easily
be possible to trace it, even in the absence of tags.


that is tricky because you would have to check an awful lot of farms to
find someone with one missing, and that person might well have had it
stolen or reported it stolen.

Should I be concerned if I can see cattle with tags missing, apart
from being an expense to the farmer is it serving a purpose, plainly
like other legislation avoiding complying could be a useful cost
saving the over legitimate farmer.

virtually impossible to avoid compliance in the longer term. The worst
offenders are dairy farmers whose cattle never move. They therefore
barely need tags as dairy farmers herds have more ID than you could
reasonably expect anyway. Dairy farmers tend to be the ones frantically
phoning for replacement tags because an old cow is booked in on to OTMS
and at slaughter ALL tags have to be absolutely correct.

Farmer to farmer deals are possible without proper tags but otherwise
you cannot move animals who are incorrectly tagged.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'


AJH

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

The "Rural Payments agency have a rolling programme of random checks,
which intent to check every farm at least once in five years but more
often for larger farms.

They came here just before FMD and then again last week.

These checks are reckonned by the RPA to take an
average of about three days,

All day Friday and Monday afternoon (two people) for our 500 (?) head

most happen at a couple of hours notice

They phoned us and made an apointment.

and every animal has its eartag checked, plus they go through all your
movement records and will check them against other peoples records.

Most errors were either local mart and/or BCMS

offenders are dairy farmers whose cattle never move. They therefore
barely need tags as dairy farmers herds have more ID than you could
reasonably expect anyway.

All our cows have ear tags, although some are kept safely in the box in
the office where there is less chance of loosing them!!

Dairy farmers tend to be the ones frantically
phoning for replacement tags because an old cow is booked in on to
OTMS
and at slaughter ALL tags have to be absolutely correct.

That's where Denimex come in for my praise, tags at 24 hours notice.
(0800 243 557)

Farmer to farmer deals are possible without proper tags but otherwise
you cannot move animals who are incorrectly tagged.

Are you suggesting that we would move animals without checking their
tags???

;-))


--
J B

J B wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

The "Rural Payments agency have a rolling programme of random
checks,
which intent to check every farm at least once in five years but
more
often for larger farms.

They came here just before FMD and then again last week.

These checks are reckonned by the RPA to take an
average of about three days,

All day Friday and Monday afternoon (two people) for our 500 (?) head

milk cows are a doddle, imagine putting 200 limi stirks or 60 limi beef
cows through ( especially if you have to fetch them down off the fell
before hand)


most happen at a couple of hours notice

They phoned us and made an apointment.


In theory 10% have to be totally unannounced. If you just have milk cows
then you will have no cattle in retention and claim no money direct so
they may not give you the full treatment. Normally they phone at 8am to
say they want to see you at 10am. They will be flexible and come
following day if you aren't there, but more than 48 hours delay they
damned near have to contact Brussels direct .

and every animal has its eartag checked, plus they go through all
your
movement records and will check them against other peoples records.

Most errors were either local mart and/or BCMS

BCMS yes, but our local mart has got a better record than a lot of
farmers we buy off.

offenders are dairy farmers whose cattle never move. They therefore
barely need tags as dairy farmers herds have more ID than you could
reasonably expect anyway.

All our cows have ear tags, although some are kept safely in the box
in
the office where there is less chance of loosing them!!

:-)))

Dairy farmers tend to be the ones frantically
phoning for replacement tags because an old cow is booked in on to
OTMS
and at slaughter ALL tags have to be absolutely correct.

That's where Denimex come in for my praise, tags at 24 hours notice.
(0800 243 557)

I think that is a number UK readers might want to note down.

Farmer to farmer deals are possible without proper tags but
otherwise
you cannot move animals who are incorrectly tagged.

Are you suggesting that we would move animals without checking their
tags???

;-))


heaven forbid


:-))))


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

--
J B

Guys,

Can you please explain why, in this day and age, you are
still using ancient ID methods ie tags ?

Surely ID implants are the way to go, simple,permanent,
easily read, cheap.ID chips implanted by "small animal"
vets average less than £20; a "package" deal would reduce the cost to what
?........£4/5 a head.

Years ago we used tattoo's, now tags, next implants,
c'mon....be brave....embrace the new technology, afterall
you found computers!!!!!!!!!

Brian H........
ducking awaiting incoming flak

Gordon Couger wrote in message


One year I had a neighbors calf in wiht mine when I took them to
market and
before I took them I asked him if he wanted to come get it or send it
along
with mine. He ask how we would tell them apart. It was easy it was the
one
that brought the most money. It out weighed mine about 150 pounds. He
let it
go with mine.

The way we ran cattle on wheat pasture and used hot wire fence we
would
often get calves mixed and just take care of the other fellows calves
until
we gathered them for market. They would loose a day or two of gain if
worked
them to get one or two out. A lot of places we would have to set up
portable
corrals or drive them to a neighbors to pen them.

That would drive your regulators batty. As would the wild cattle that
are
still out there in places.

there are underlying worries about feral sheep. In the lake district,
fell sheep are kept by many farmers on pretty rough terrain, and on some
fells there are a handful of old ewes who aren't really farmed by
anyone. Worse are those who got into the forestry plantations and have
hung on in there.

With cattle what happens and what is reported as happening need not
co-incide to closely. I know people round here who have had a bullock
turn up. You phone the neighbour and if it has got in with yours then
often it is a case of next time you fetch them in for anything, sort his
out and he will collect it. Depends on how well you get on with your
neighbours.
I know of one bullock that was on a neighbouring farm for four months
before the "host" bought the animal. They couldn't buy it earlier
because the animal was locked down under the 20 day rule and they would
have been overstocked and lost extensification payments if they had
owned him.
At one point the animal stood out in the lane looking embarassed as the
host farm had "all" its cattle TB tested by a ministry vet.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'




Gordon

Brian H. wrote in message
...
Guys,

Can you please explain why, in this day and age, you are
still using ancient ID methods ie tags ?

Surely ID implants are the way to go, simple,permanent,
easily read, cheap.ID chips implanted by "small animal"
vets average less than £20; a "package" deal would reduce the cost to
what
?........£4/5 a head.

Years ago we used tattoo's, now tags, next implants,
c'mon....be brave....embrace the new technology, afterall
you found computers!!!!!!!!!

Brian H........
ducking awaiting incoming flak

no reason to duck

In simple terms there are two systems which are incompatable (I forget
the acronyms) one is slightly more powerful than the other.
Unfortunately while both seem to work well enough with a portal reader
(gate) as you would set up in an auction mart, none of the hand held
readers have more than 18" range max. A big ear tag that is clean can be
read up to six feet away, and in good conditions I have read them at 20
yards (Cheated, took binoculars)

The cost is also against the chips, they aren't much more expensive than
ordinary tags, could perhaps be cheaper, but the readers are expensive
enough to make a good pair of binoculars look like value.

Our IT professionals will doubtless tell us what happens to a computer
that has to live in rain and sh*t, the portable ones have keyboards far
too small to punch with cold, numb, wet and dirty fingers.

Also the EU is still deciding which of the two competing systems the EU
will take up, so until that happens don't hold your breath.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

On Friday, in article
"Brian H." wrote:

Guys,

Can you please explain why, in this day and age, you are
still using ancient ID methods ie tags ?

EU rules.

Surely ID implants are the way to go, simple,permanent,
easily read, cheap.ID chips implanted by "small animal"
vets average less than £20; a "package" deal would reduce the cost to what
?........£4/5 a head.

Just remember that it would be a bad idea for somebody to find the
implant in their Big Mac.

Years ago we used tattoo's, now tags, next implants,
c'mon....be brave....embrace the new technology, afterall
you found computers!!!!!!!!!

We eagerly anticipate the day that DEFRA's computer-using skill reaches
the level of "Mostly Harmless", but I'm not sure that the hardware they
run their systems on can last another 20 years.


--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"Let me get this straight. You're the KGB's core AI, but you're afraid
of a copyright infringement lawsuit over your translator semiotics?"
From "Lobsters" by Charles Stross.

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

Gordon Couger wrote in message


One year I had a neighbors calf in wiht mine when I took them to
market and
before I took them I asked him if he wanted to come get it or send it
along
with mine. He ask how we would tell them apart. It was easy it was the
one
that brought the most money. It out weighed mine about 150 pounds. He
let it
go with mine.

The way we ran cattle on wheat pasture and used hot wire fence we
would
often get calves mixed and just take care of the other fellows calves
until
we gathered them for market. They would loose a day or two of gain if
worked
them to get one or two out. A lot of places we would have to set up
portable
corrals or drive them to a neighbors to pen them.

That would drive your regulators batty. As would the wild cattle that
are
still out there in places.

there are underlying worries about feral sheep. In the lake district,
fell sheep are kept by many farmers on pretty rough terrain, and on some
fells there are a handful of old ewes who aren't really farmed by
anyone. Worse are those who got into the forestry plantations and have
hung on in there.

With cattle what happens and what is reported as happening need not
co-incide to closely. I know people round here who have had a bullock
turn up. You phone the neighbour and if it has got in with yours then
often it is a case of next time you fetch them in for anything, sort his
out and he will collect it. Depends on how well you get on with your
neighbours.
I know of one bullock that was on a neighbouring farm for four months
before the "host" bought the animal. They couldn't buy it earlier
because the animal was locked down under the 20 day rule and they would
have been overstocked and lost extensification payments if they had
owned him.
At one point the animal stood out in the lane looking embarassed as the
host farm had "all" its cattle TB tested by a ministry vet.

My news program must have lost this tread I picked it up in Califonia
visting my son. I guess I need to get a better news feed.

Your rules would interfer with reality a lot.

Getting on with neighbors is damned important. I know men that have killed
each other over fence disputes. I had one landlord that always wanted me to
go with him when he visted one neighbor. And the old man was as tough as
they come. He just didn't want any trouble to start.

Gordon

Gordon Couger wrote in message
news:tSaO9.499483$QZ.75172@sccrnsc02...

My news program must have lost this tread I picked it up in Califonia
visting my son. I guess I need to get a better news feed.

Certainly lookes like it :-))

Your rules would interfer with reality a lot.

they do, and as we all know, reality is real and it is what happens in
the end.


Getting on with neighbors is damned important. I know men that have
killed
each other over fence disputes. I had one landlord that always wanted
me to
go with him when he visted one neighbor. And the old man was as tough
as
they come. He just didn't want any trouble to start.


I think that sort of neighbour is not restricted to any one country. I
know neighbours in this country who are best not armed, rural and urban.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'



Gordon

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

Gordon Couger wrote in message
news:tSaO9.499483$QZ.75172@sccrnsc02...

My news program must have lost this tread I picked it up in Califonia
visting my son. I guess I need to get a better news feed.

Certainly lookes like it :-))

Your rules would interfer with reality a lot.

they do, and as we all know, reality is real and it is what happens in
the end.


Getting on with neighbors is damned important. I know men that have
killed
each other over fence disputes. I had one landlord that always wanted
me to
go with him when he visted one neighbor. And the old man was as tough
as
they come. He just didn't want any trouble to start.


I think that sort of neighbour is not restricted to any one country. I
know neighbours in this country who are best not armed, rural and urban.

In rual areas you best considier you neighrbor armed. He may not be but he
most likely is. It is no for two legged varments but four legged ones but in
the heat of the momement bird shot at close range is as effective as a 50
caliber BMG at 1,000 yards.

All witner I carrerd a shot gun for ducks and quail and a highpowered rifile
for coyotes, badgers and racoons. If I was trapping I carried a pistol. You
could tell most farmers that were armed they guns hung from a rack in the
back widow of their truck.

It make for a more polite societ.

Gordon

Gordon Couger wrote in message
news:sHzO9.463097$WL3.124760@rwcrnsc54...



It make for a more polite society.

I can well imagine :-))


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'





Gordon

On Thursday, in article
"Jim Webster" wrote:

Gordon Couger wrote in message
news:sHzO9.463097$WL3.124760@rwcrnsc54...



It make for a more polite society.

I can well imagine :-))

It isn't worth being polite in less than 120mm calibre.

(Though .44 Magnum may suffice in more intimate circumstances.)



--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"Let me get this straight. You're the KGB's core AI, but you're afraid
of a copyright infringement lawsuit over your translator semiotics?"
From "Lobsters" by Charles Stross.

"David G. Bell" wrote in message
.. .
It isn't worth being polite in less than 120mm calibre.

(Though .44 Magnum may suffice in more intimate circumstances.)

Anything under 175mm is merely colonial policing (while in Russia 155mm
is hostage rescue and covert operations weapon.)
--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"David G. Bell" wrote in message
.. .
It isn't worth being polite in less than 120mm calibre.

(Though .44 Magnum may suffice in more intimate circumstances.)

Anything under 175mm is merely colonial policing (while in Russia 155mm
is hostage rescue and covert operations weapon.)

The sound of 12 gauge pump shot gun loading a round in the chamber wins
respect anywhere in the world. It is much easer to bring on target than a
155mm. And more effective than the 44 mag.

Gordon

Andrew Heggie wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:02:34 -0000, "Jim Webster"
wrote:

every bovine animal has to have two ear tags, its passport, every
movement off one holding onto another has to be reported. Even Zoos
have
to do this.


How is this policed and what are the regulations for other cloven
hooved animals?

I brought back in the x posting because Gordon and others might find
this interesting

"Trading Standards Officers" turn up at auction marts and check animals,
so most auction marts police it anyway to cover themselves.
The "Rural Payments agency have a rolling programme of random checks,
which intent to check every farm at least once in five years but more
often for larger farms. These checks are reckonned by the RPA to take an
average of about three days, most happen at a couple of hours notice,
and every animal has its eartag checked, plus they go through all your
movement records andwill checkthem against other peoples records.
Various bodies such as Trading Standards departments can turn up (an do)
unannounced to see you movement documents, it the documents are not up
to date you are locked down until the authorities are happy with them,
which can take six months.
Then there are fines and penalties.


I have an ulterior motive for wishing to know a bit more following a
dead cow arriving on some land near me. It strikes me it should easily
be possible to trace it, even in the absence of tags.


that is tricky because you would have to check an awful lot of farms to
find someone with one missing, and that person might well have had it
stolen or reported it stolen.

Should I be concerned if I can see cattle with tags missing, apart
from being an expense to the farmer is it serving a purpose, plainly
like other legislation avoiding complying could be a useful cost
saving the over legitimate farmer.

virtually impossible to avoid compliance in the longer term. The worst
offenders are dairy farmers whose cattle never move. They therefore
barely need tags as dairy farmers herds have more ID than you could
reasonably expect anyway. Dairy farmers tend to be the ones frantically
phoning for replacement tags because an old cow is booked in on to OTMS
and at slaughter ALL tags have to be absolutely correct.

Farmer to farmer deals are possible without proper tags but otherwise
you cannot move animals who are incorrectly tagged.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'


AJH