Sorry about the double posting, just wanted to make sure the title caught our
local arborists' attention, since this is as much a question about trees as it
is sod...

I'm thinking about putting in some sod. I know "technically" the best way to
do it is to get rid of all the other grass/weeds that is already there,
lightly till (or rake) up the soil, and put the sod down on that.

I know there are varying opinions on how to get rid of the existing
vegetation, but I would be inclined to spray it with round up to kill it off
first, then rake it up. I am NOT too crazy about trying to pull it all up
while it is still alive. And tilling really isn't a great option because of
the shallow soil depth on top of a rocky base.

The area under consideration happens to be under some live oaks. Part of what

is growing there is literally hundreds of little oak saplings sprouting up
under and around the trees. My concern is that if I were to spray all of them

with round up, that would make its way into the trees' root systems and harm
them as well -- which I definitely don't want to do.

Would spraying round up under those trees harm them?

Would I have a chance in hades of the sod taking if I laid it on top of the
existing vegetation?


scott

"Scott Harper" wrote in message
erio.net...
Sorry about the double posting, just wanted to make sure the title caught
our
local arborists' attention, since this is as much a question about trees
as it
is sod...

I'm thinking about putting in some sod. I know "technically" the best way
to
do it is to get rid of all the other grass/weeds that is already there,
lightly till (or rake) up the soil, and put the sod down on that.

I know there are varying opinions on how to get rid of the existing
vegetation, but I would be inclined to spray it with round up to kill it
off
first, then rake it up. I am NOT too crazy about trying to pull it all up
while it is still alive. And tilling really isn't a great option because
of
the shallow soil depth on top of a rocky base.

The area under consideration happens to be under some live oaks. Part of
what

is growing there is literally hundreds of little oak saplings sprouting up
under and around the trees. My concern is that if I were to spray all of
them

with round up, that would make its way into the trees' root systems and
harm
them as well -- which I definitely don't want to do.

Would spraying round up under those trees harm them?

Would I have a chance in hades of the sod taking if I laid it on top of
the
existing vegetation?


scott

Rocky soil, live oaks. TX hill country.

Local cedar (juniper ashe) trees controls growth there. That goes for
normally grown grasses as well.

Should not be too much to prep under a live oak tree. Mountain out of
molehill.
Dave

On Tue, 29 May 2007 21:17:35 GMT,
(Scott Harper) wrote:

Sorry about the double posting, just wanted to make sure the title caught our
local arborists' attention, since this is as much a question about trees as it
is sod...

I'm thinking about putting in some sod. I know "technically" the best way to
do it is to get rid of all the other grass/weeds that is already there,
lightly till (or rake) up the soil, and put the sod down on that.

I know there are varying opinions on how to get rid of the existing
vegetation, but I would be inclined to spray it with round up to kill it off
first, then rake it up. I am NOT too crazy about trying to pull it all up
while it is still alive. And tilling really isn't a great option because of
the shallow soil depth on top of a rocky base.

The area under consideration happens to be under some live oaks. Part of what

is growing there is literally hundreds of little oak saplings sprouting up
under and around the trees. My concern is that if I were to spray all of them

with round up, that would make its way into the trees' root systems and harm
them as well -- which I definitely don't want to do.

Would spraying round up under those trees harm them?

Would I have a chance in hades of the sod taking if I laid it on top of the
existing vegetation?


scott
All those little sprouts (or most of them, anyway) are coming from the
trees' root system. It would definitely be a bad idea to spray them
with roundup.

For that matter, it would be a bad idea to plant sod under the trees.
Mulch the area under the canopies with wood chips or similar material
and plant grass where you have open sunny areas (if you must). If you
have no such open areas, count yourself lucky!

Keith Babberney
ISA Certified Arborist #TX-0236AT

"Treedweller" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 May 2007 21:17:35 GMT,
(Scott Harper) wrote:

Sorry about the double posting, just wanted to make sure the title caught
our
local arborists' attention, since this is as much a question about trees
as it
is sod...

I'm thinking about putting in some sod. I know "technically" the best way
to
do it is to get rid of all the other grass/weeds that is already there,
lightly till (or rake) up the soil, and put the sod down on that.

I know there are varying opinions on how to get rid of the existing
vegetation, but I would be inclined to spray it with round up to kill it
off
first, then rake it up. I am NOT too crazy about trying to pull it all up
while it is still alive. And tilling really isn't a great option because
of
the shallow soil depth on top of a rocky base.

The area under consideration happens to be under some live oaks. Part of
what

is growing there is literally hundreds of little oak saplings sprouting up
under and around the trees. My concern is that if I were to spray all of
them

with round up, that would make its way into the trees' root systems and
harm
them as well -- which I definitely don't want to do.

Would spraying round up under those trees harm them?

Would I have a chance in hades of the sod taking if I laid it on top of
the
existing vegetation?


scott
All those little sprouts (or most of them, anyway) are coming from the
trees' root system. It would definitely be a bad idea to spray them
with roundup.

For that matter, it would be a bad idea to plant sod under the trees.
Mulch the area under the canopies with wood chips or similar material
and plant grass where you have open sunny areas (if you must). If you
have no such open areas, count yourself lucky!

Keith Babberney
ISA Certified Arborist #TX-0236AT

Live Oak doesn't do that. Sprouts don't exist per se. Only the acorn can
produce such a growth if Live Oak. Looking at native Live Oak in S. central
TX. All the same. Quack arborist.
Dave

"Scott Harper" wrote in message
erio.net...
Sorry about the double posting, just wanted to make sure the title caught
our
local arborists' attention, since this is as much a question about trees
as it
is sod...

I'm thinking about putting in some sod. I know "technically" the best way
to
do it is to get rid of all the other grass/weeds that is already there,
lightly till (or rake) up the soil, and put the sod down on that.

I know there are varying opinions on how to get rid of the existing
vegetation, but I would be inclined to spray it with round up to kill it
off
first, then rake it up. I am NOT too crazy about trying to pull it all up
while it is still alive. And tilling really isn't a great option because
of
the shallow soil depth on top of a rocky base.

The area under consideration happens to be under some live oaks. Part of
what

is growing there is literally hundreds of little oak saplings sprouting up
under and around the trees. My concern is that if I were to spray all of
them

with round up, that would make its way into the trees' root systems and
harm
them as well -- which I definitely don't want to do.

Would spraying round up under those trees harm them?

Would I have a chance in hades of the sod taking if I laid it on top of
the
existing vegetation?


scott

Takes 2 or 3 years with good rain conditions to washout the growth
controlling material that comes from cedar (juniper ashe). This is assuming
that there is no renewable cedar "leaves" or water-washed material coming
from some other location to under those trees.

If present, rake up and dig up what you can. Replace with decent topsoil or
verified suitable sandy loam 4" or deeper depth. Divert any upstream waters
that may wash such to your converted area.
Dave

Dave wrote:
"Treedweller" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 29 May 2007 21:17:35 GMT,
(Scott Harper) wrote:


Sorry about the double posting, just wanted to make sure the title caught
our
local arborists' attention, since this is as much a question about trees
as it
is sod...

I'm thinking about putting in some sod. I know "technically" the best way
to
do it is to get rid of all the other grass/weeds that is already there,
lightly till (or rake) up the soil, and put the sod down on that.

I know there are varying opinions on how to get rid of the existing
vegetation, but I would be inclined to spray it with round up to kill it
off
first, then rake it up. I am NOT too crazy about trying to pull it all up
while it is still alive. And tilling really isn't a great option because
of
the shallow soil depth on top of a rocky base.

The area under consideration happens to be under some live oaks. Part of
what

is growing there is literally hundreds of little oak saplings sprouting up
under and around the trees. My concern is that if I were to spray all of
them

with round up, that would make its way into the trees' root systems and
harm
them as well -- which I definitely don't want to do.

Would spraying round up under those trees harm them?

Would I have a chance in hades of the sod taking if I laid it on top of
the
existing vegetation?


scott

All those little sprouts (or most of them, anyway) are coming from the
trees' root system. It would definitely be a bad idea to spray them
with roundup.

For that matter, it would be a bad idea to plant sod under the trees.
Mulch the area under the canopies with wood chips or similar material
and plant grass where you have open sunny areas (if you must). If you
have no such open areas, count yourself lucky!

Keith Babberney
ISA Certified Arborist #TX-0236AT


Live Oak doesn't do that. Sprouts don't exist per se. Only the acorn can
produce such a growth if Live Oak. Looking at native Live Oak in S. central
TX. All the same. Quack arborist.
Dave


Well I guess those "sprouts" that I dug back to the big live oak roots
were some sort of anti-Dave conspiracy. Not to mention all those
horticultural websites that are out to confuse us with their quackery,
like TAMU (just a bunch of spin-doctors trying to upstage Dave, Mr.
spamyourself @ virus.net).

Dave wrote:
"Scott Harper" wrote in message
erio.net...

Sorry about the double posting, just wanted to make sure the title caught
our
local arborists' attention, since this is as much a question about trees
as it
is sod...

I'm thinking about putting in some sod. I know "technically" the best way
to
do it is to get rid of all the other grass/weeds that is already there,
lightly till (or rake) up the soil, and put the sod down on that.

I know there are varying opinions on how to get rid of the existing
vegetation, but I would be inclined to spray it with round up to kill it
off
first, then rake it up. I am NOT too crazy about trying to pull it all up
while it is still alive. And tilling really isn't a great option because
of
the shallow soil depth on top of a rocky base.

The area under consideration happens to be under some live oaks. Part of
what

is growing there is literally hundreds of little oak saplings sprouting up
under and around the trees. My concern is that if I were to spray all of
them

with round up, that would make its way into the trees' root systems and
harm
them as well -- which I definitely don't want to do.

Would spraying round up under those trees harm them?

Would I have a chance in hades of the sod taking if I laid it on top of
the
existing vegetation?


scott


Takes 2 or 3 years with good rain conditions to washout the growth
controlling material that comes from cedar (juniper ashe). This is assuming
that there is no renewable cedar "leaves" or water-washed material coming
from some other location to under those trees.

If present, rake up and dig up what you can. Replace with decent topsoil or
verified suitable sandy loam 4" or deeper depth. Divert any upstream waters
that may wash such to your converted area.
Dave


What a bunch of baloney! Get with the 21st century dude.

Just one of many modern commentaries about ashe juniper, not the aging
and disproved myths that Dave is spouting.
---------------------------------------------------------

Excerpt from:
http://members.toast.net/juniper/Ashe%20juniper.html

Not a Toxic Suppressor of Other Plants

Plants that grow in part shade to full shade grow very easily beneath
mountain cedars. I have counted over 80 species of native plants that
grow beneath Ashe junipers. No research has ever isolated a plant
inhibitor excreted by mountain cedars, although a few studies, one by
Brother Daniel Lynch, showed a pure foliage extract will inhibit seed
germination of nonnative vegetable seeds.

Many say grasses don't grow under junipers, but I have seen plenty of
native grasses thriving under a discontinuous cover of mountain cedar
(where canopies perimeters are no less than 10 feet apart). Some of
these grasses are little bluestem, tall dropseed, Texas winter grass,
side oats grama, and Lindheimer's muhly. In full shade, inland sea oats
do quite well.

The lack of vegetation under a mountain cedar typically occurs under
young cedar thickets. But dig in that rocky stuff and you can only ask,
well what else would want to grow here? Once the thickets grow into
adult cedars and the trees have dumped a copious amount leaves that
eventually turn into soil, you can see the emergence of woody plants
such as live oak, red oak, cedar elm, escarpment black cherry, etc. If
the cedar is not thinned, the oaks, elms and cherries will grow up and
eventually shade out many cedars, thus converting the juniper thicket
into a mixed woodlands. David Bamberger dug under one 10-14 foot
mountain cedar and discovered an average of 9 inches of soil. In the
interspace just beyond that cedar, there was no soil: just pure limestone.

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 06:56:49 GMT, "Dave"
wrote:
[snip]
Live Oak doesn't do that. Sprouts don't exist per se. Only the acorn can
produce such a growth if Live Oak. Looking at native Live Oak in S. central
TX. All the same. Quack arborist.
Dave

"Quack."


"Live oak sprouts abundantly from the root collar and roots. When tops
are killed or when the tree is girdled, roots near the ground surface
send up numerous sprouts. "
--http://www.na.fs.fed.us/pubs/silvics_manual/volume_2/quercus/virginiana.htm

"47. Q: Client has sprouts coming up under a live oak tree. They
believe these to be from acorns. Can these sprouts be treated with a
herbicide and not hurt the live oak tree?

A: These sprouts could be from the tree roots. Would need to make
certain they are from acorns before treating. Better to cut off 2 to 3
inches below ground level."
--http://plantanswers.tamu.edu/trees/tree.html

"Live oak sprouts from both root collar and from shallow roots. When a
tree is cut every root may send up three or four sprouts. When sprouts
are mowed, new ones appear in even greater numbers. This makes
unwanted live oaks difficult to kill."
--http://www.sfrc.ufl.edu/Extension/pubtxt/for4.htm

"Live oak sprouts from root collars and from roots. Dense clonal
colonies sometimes result from this mode of reproduction, and have
been observed up to 20 m (66 feet) in diameter."
--http://www.sms.si.edu/irlspec/Quercu_virginic.htm

This from 10 seconds of googling. If anyone with an open mind wants
more evidence, I can refer them to some places in Austin where they
can see it for themselves.

Keith Babberney
ISA Certified Arborist #TX-0236AT

On May 31, 1:52 am, Treedweller wrote:
On Tue, 29 May 2007 21:17:35 GMT,





(Scott Harper) wrote:
Sorry about the double posting, just wanted to make sure the title caught our
local arborists' attention, since this is as much a question abouttreesas it
is sod...

I'm thinking about putting in some sod. I know "technically" the best way to
do it is to get rid of all the other grass/weeds that is already there,
lightly till (or rake) up the soil, and put the sod down on that.

I know there are varying opinions on how to get rid of the existing
vegetation, but I would be inclined to spray it with round up to kill it off
first, then rake it up. I am NOT too crazy about trying to pull it all up
while it is still alive. And tilling really isn't a great option because of
the shallow soil depth on top of a rocky base.

The area under consideration happens to be under some live oaks. Part of what

is growing there is literally hundreds of little oak saplings sprouting up
under and around thetrees. My concern is that if I were to spray all of them

with round up, that would make its way into thetrees' root systems and harm
them as well -- which I definitely don't want to do.

Would spraying round up under thosetreesharm them?

Would I have a chance in hades of the sod taking if I laid it on top of the
existing vegetation?

scott

All those little sprouts (or most of them, anyway) are coming from thetrees' root system. It would definitely be a bad idea to spray them
with roundup.

For that matter, it would be a bad idea to plant sod under thetrees.
Mulch the area under the canopies with wood chips or similar material
and plant grass where you have open sunny areas (if you must). If you
have no such open areas, count yourself lucky!

Keith Babberney
ISA Certified Arborist #TX-0236AT- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, sensible answer. not too deep with the mulch though.

On Jun 2, 1:12 pm, Treedweller wrote:
On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 06:56:49 GMT, "Dave"
wrote:
[snip]Live Oak doesn't do that. Sprouts don't exist per se. Only the acorn can
produce such a growth if Live Oak. Looking at native Live Oak in S. central
TX. All the same. Quack arborist.
Dave

"Quack."

"Live oak sprouts abundantly from the root collar and roots. When tops
are killed or when the tree is girdled, roots near the ground surface
send up numerous sprouts. "
--http://www.na.fs.fed.us/pubs/silvics_manual/volume_2/quercus/virginia...

"47. Q: Client has sprouts coming up under a live oak tree. They
believe these to be from acorns. Can these sprouts be treated with a
herbicide and not hurt the live oak tree?
Q: why not simply cut the shoots back regularly rather than use a herbicide? Alright, a bit time consuming, better alround though. The use of herbicides is short term thinking in the grand scheme of things.
A: These sprouts could be from the tree roots. Would need to make
certain they are from acorns before treating. Better to cut off 2 to 3
inches below ground level."
--http://plantanswers.tamu.edu/trees/tree.html

"Live oak sprouts from both root collar and from shallow roots. When a
tree is cut every root may send up three or four sprouts. When sprouts
are mowed, new ones appear in even greater numbers. This makes
unwanted live oaks difficult to kill."
--http://www.sfrc.ufl.edu/Extension/pubtxt/for4.htm

"Live oak sprouts from root collars and from roots. Dense clonal
colonies sometimes result from this mode of reproduction, and have
been observed up to 20 m (66 feet) in diameter."
--http://www.sms.si.edu/irlspec/Quercu_virginic.htm

This from 10 seconds of googling. If anyone with an open mind wants
more evidence, I can refer them to some places in Austin where they
can see it for themselves.

Keith Babberney
ISA Certified Arborist #TX-0236AT

Oaks are clever, the shoots thrown up are part of their survival
tactics, helps then to continue when grazed upon etc.