I wish to retract my claim that Stace's use of "native" was certainly
an error as I have been in contact with the man himself, querying his
use of it.

He replied saying that there is disagreement among botanists as to what
can be regarded as a native taxon! For hybrids, his own view is that
any that arose in the UK can be called native, whether or not its
parents are native (not least because quite often such hybrids occur
nowhere else). In the case of the Russell Lupin, although the hybrid
arose in cultivation, it also did in the wild, and it is this latter
occurrence that led him to use the term native in the New Flora,
reinforcing this with the words "spontaneous hybrids".

Makes sense. Thanks for following this up.
--
Kay

"Malcolm" wrote in message
...

In article , Malcolm
writes

In article , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Malcolm writes:
|
| To remove any doubt:
|
| Stace lists:
|
| 1. Tree Lupin. Lupinus arboreus
| 2. Russell Lupin. L. x regalis (L. arboreus x L. polyphyllos)
| 2x4. L. x regalis x L. nootkatensis
| 3. Garden Lupin. L. polyphyllus
| 3x4. L. polyphyllus x L. nootkatensis
| 4. Nootka Lupin. L. nootkatensis
| 5. White Lupin. L. albus
| 6. Narrow-leaved Lupin. L. angustifolius.
|
| All are stated as Introduced except Russell Lupin, which is a native.
^^^^^^^
I think that either he or you didn't mean to type that, unless he is
using a new and extremely bizarre meaning of the word "native"!
It is more traditionally called "of garden origin".

This is what Stace says about Lupinus x regalis:

"Native; commonly grown and frequently well naturalized on rough
ground, banks of roads and railways; throughout lowland Britain; garden
origin, but spontaneous hybrids occur in Moray, Wigtown and Midlothian
with the parents, and perhaps also backcrosses from naturalized L. x
regalis to L.arboreus."

His use of 'native' is certainly an error as this hybrid was first
produced in cultivation in 1937 and first recorded in the wild in 1955.

A week later, for those still interested.......

I wish to retract my claim that Stace's use of "native" was certainly an
error as I have been in contact with the man himself, querying his use
of it.

He replied saying that there is disagreement among botanists as to what
can be regarded as a native taxon! For hybrids, his own view is that
any that arose in the UK can be called native, whether or not its
parents are native (not least because quite often such hybrids occur
nowhere else). In the case of the Russell Lupin, although the hybrid
arose in cultivation, it also did in the wild, and it is this latter
occurrence that led him to use the term native in the New Flora,
reinforcing this with the words "spontaneous hybrids".

So now you know!


So, similar reasoning would suggest that ruddy duck/whd hybrids, or red
deer/sitka hybrids are native to wherever the hybridisation occurred?

In article , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Malcolm writes:
|
| You are making a common nomenclatural error! The Spanish bluebell
| doesn't contain any English bluebell in either its ancestry or its
| genes, as it is a full species, Hyacinthoides hispanica, introduced from
| Iberia and widely naturalised. If you are referring to H.non-scripta x
| H.hispanica, then you should call it the hybrid bluebell!

True. I stand corrected :-)

Wow :-)

--
Malcolm

In article ,
Malcolm writes:
|
| Perhaps. However, as with the Spanish bluebell and its hybrid, efforts
| are being made to stop the duck and deer hybrids from spreading and
| overwhelming the original native parent.

I wasn't aware that anyone had managed to create any duck and deer
hybrids - that's even more impresssive than the jackalope!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Malcolm writes:
|
| Perhaps. However, as with the Spanish bluebell and its hybrid, efforts
| are being made to stop the duck and deer hybrids from spreading and
| overwhelming the original native parent.

I wasn't aware that anyone had managed to create any duck and deer
hybrids - that's even more impresssive than the jackalope!

But less impressive that red deer/sitka hybrids.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley