Uncle Marvo wrote:
In reply to Philip H. Hart ) who wrote this in
, I, Marvo, say :

A troll on the newsgroups is someone who wastes the time of putatively
serious posters. I troll people on the environmental groups who post
anti-conservation messages, like the aforesaid Pete. His trolling
always comes with an anti-conservation message.

To find out about Usenet trolls I suggest you go through information
engines like Google or Wikipedia.

But I thought that if you suss a troll he has to stop. Isn't it the rules?

There is only one rule in trolling, and that is "There are no rules"

If you are still interested in the topic of Ailanthus try

http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/ceso1.htm

In article ,
"michael adams" wrote:

"Des Higgins" wrote in message
. ie...

"Geoff" wrote in message
...
On 19 Sep 2006 09:55:36 -0700, "Bill" wrote:


BAC wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message
oups.com...

BAC wrote:

Don't panic, it's been here for 250 years or so without 'taking
over'.

But the climate has heated up at an accelerated rate and now it
might
be more sympathetic to this trees native conditions.


It may indeed, but that doesn't mean it will inevitably become a
problem
here.

Over long time spans, you get more and more species and species mixtures
evolving that are highly specific to particular locations and habitats and
which can do this because they are isolated
Then when we come along and mix them with each other you get species
warfare
and you end up with fewer species as one species replaces others either
directly through competition or indirectly through habitat loss/change
(e.g.
Rhodendron ponticum in SW Ireland are replacing Oakwoods and all the
mosses
and liverworts that live in them). That is backwards evolution towards
the
kind of species mix you get in supermarket carparks.

Disgruntled of Dublin


There are only two sides in species warfare. The human species on one
side against which nothing can prevail, and everything else on the other.


http://www.patternliteracy.com/exotics.html

http://dtheo.org/AABGAPaper.htm

http://dtheo.org/NativesVs.Exotics.htm

http://dtheo.org/BookOrder.htm

"John McMillan" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"michael adams" wrote:

"Des Higgins" wrote in message
. ie...

"Geoff" wrote in message
...
On 19 Sep 2006 09:55:36 -0700, "Bill" wrote:


BAC wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message
oups.com...

BAC wrote:

Don't panic, it's been here for 250 years or so without 'taking
over'.

But the climate has heated up at an accelerated rate and now it
might
be more sympathetic to this trees native conditions.


It may indeed, but that doesn't mean it will inevitably become a
problem
here.

Over long time spans, you get more and more species and species
mixtures
evolving that are highly specific to particular locations and habitats
and
which can do this because they are isolated
Then when we come along and mix them with each other you get species
warfare
and you end up with fewer species as one species replaces others either
directly through competition or indirectly through habitat loss/change
(e.g.
Rhodendron ponticum in SW Ireland are replacing Oakwoods and all the
mosses
and liverworts that live in them). That is backwards evolution towards
the
kind of species mix you get in supermarket carparks.

Disgruntled of Dublin


There are only two sides in species warfare. The human species on one
side against which nothing can prevail, and everything else on the other.


http://www.patternliteracy.com/exotics.html

http://dtheo.org/AABGAPaper.htm

http://dtheo.org/NativesVs.Exotics.htm

http://dtheo.org/BookOrder.htm


Some good points but you completely ignored the point I was making and I can
answer all of the points in the above with these:

http://www.hoganstand.com/HomePage.aspx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0130j5UVpbQ

http://www.arachne.com/

http://www.jackiehealyrae.com/

In particular I recommend the sections from the GAA and Jackie Healy Rae;
they have comments dotted around their web sites about the effects of aliens
on hurling pitches and roadside dancing in Kerry.

HTH

Dem vs Us 'R' Us

On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:08:01 +0100, "Uncle Marvo"
wrote:

In reply to Philip H. Hart ) who wrote this in
m, I, Marvo, say :

A troll on the newsgroups is someone who wastes the time of putatively
serious posters. I troll people on the environmental groups who post
anti-conservation messages, like the aforesaid Pete. His trolling
always comes with an anti-conservation message.

To find out about Usenet trolls I suggest you go through information
engines like Google or Wikipedia.

But I thought that if you suss a troll he has to stop. Isn't it the rules?

The blind leading the blind!

In article ,
"Des Higgins" wrote:

There are only two sides in species warfare. The human species on one
side against which nothing can prevail, and everything else on the other.


http://www.patternliteracy.com/exotics.html

http://dtheo.org/AABGAPaper.htm

http://dtheo.org/NativesVs.Exotics.htm

http://dtheo.org/BookOrder.htm


Some good points but you completely ignored the point I was making and I can
answer all of the points in the above with these:

http://www.hoganstand.com/HomePage.aspx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0130j5UVpbQ

http://www.arachne.com/

http://www.jackiehealyrae.com/

I'm sorry I ignored the point you were making. It was a mistake
and I now realize I was completely wrong.



In particular I recommend the sections from the GAA and Jackie Healy Rae;
they have comments dotted around their web sites about the effects of aliens
on hurling pitches and roadside dancing in Kerry.

Heck, I'd vote for him. I have to say that I couldn't actually find the
aliens but I'm sure they're there somewhere. Would your man Healy-Rae
be interested in standing as MEP?

The message
from "BAC" contains these words:


"Bill" wrote in message
oups.com...

BAC wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message
oups.com...

BAC wrote:

Don't panic, it's been here for 250 years or so without 'taking
over'.

But the climate has heated up at an accelerated rate and now it might
be more sympathetic to this trees native conditions.


It may indeed, but that doesn't mean it will inevitably become a problem
here.

Good point.

(I probably got sucked into the Observer's screaming article title...
next time i'll buy the Mail on Sunday)


Among other things, it said in the article that...

i) it is often found near railway lines
ii) that by cutting back at the tree it sprouts off and throws out
underground suckers

Not sure if the methods they use in vegetation control around railways
(slash, slash some more, slash again) would help stop the second
point's phenomena.


Well, something kills them - I've managed to 'lose' a couple in my garden. I
must be the world's worst gardener, if I can't even grow an invasive alien
:-)

You're not the only one. I've lost one too.

Janet G

In article ,
"Des Higgins" writes:
|
| It is actually undoing millions of years of evolution by letting species mix
| willy nilly.

In some places, yes. In the UK, not really. There are a mere handful
of plants (and PERHAPS two land vertebrates) that have survived from
11,500 years ago. All of the rest have colonised or been introduced
by man (and we don't really know which, in most cases).

It is true that introducing plants from outside western or northern
Eurasia 'undoes millions of years of evolution', but that applies to
fewer plants than most people realise. It doesn't apply to Rhododendron
ponticum, for example.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Des Higgins" writes:
|
| It is actually undoing millions of years of evolution by letting
species mix
| willy nilly.

In some places, yes. In the UK, not really. There are a mere handful
of plants (and PERHAPS two land vertebrates) that have survived from
11,500 years ago. All of the rest have colonised or been introduced
by man (and we don't really know which, in most cases).

It is true that introducing plants from outside western or northern
Eurasia 'undoes millions of years of evolution', but that applies to
fewer plants than most people realise. It doesn't apply to Rhododendron
ponticum, for example.


The millions of years bit was for dramtic effect; point taken.
I was just pointing out how bad it is to refer to letting grey squirrels run
riot or to not control rhodondrons or sycamores as evolution.
Evolution has been used and misused to make dubious political statements
many times and this was one.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
"Des Higgins" writes:
|
| The millions of years bit was for dramtic effect; point taken.
| I was just pointing out how bad it is to refer to letting grey squirrels run
| riot or to not control rhodondrons or sycamores as evolution.
| Evolution has been used and misused to make dubious political statements
| many times and this was one.

What we need is some beech martens to control the grey squirrels :-)

On a global scale, whether we worry about any of those three species
or not is pretty irrelevant - the UK's ecology is as artificial as
they get, and all of those three species are very close to ones that
are native to Europe. And we need lynx to control the deer!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Des Higgins" writes:
|
| The millions of years bit was for dramtic effect; point taken.
| I was just pointing out how bad it is to refer to letting grey
squirrels run
| riot or to not control rhodondrons or sycamores as evolution.
| Evolution has been used and misused to make dubious political
statements
| many times and this was one.

What we need is some beech martens to control the grey squirrels :-)

On a global scale, whether we worry about any of those three species

Globally absolutely but locally Rhododendron ponticum is a disaster in
Ireland.
We have bugger all in terms of unique habitat or species. One of the few
things we have that is spectacular is the Oak woods of SW Ireland. These
are sopping wet and do not get much frost and are loaded with (locally
restricted) mosses and liverworts and ferns. In terms of species, very few
(in any?) are endemic but it is a spectacular habitat in beautiful
countryside and is now restricted to a few valleys having once covered the
entire region. You also get Kerry spottted slugs and St Patricks Cabbage
and yew and arbutus woodland.
Once rhodos move in you get zilch apart from the rhodos themselves. It is
sad and it is right to try to control them. Sycamores are not as bad and
deer are certainly a problem as are sheep (in some areas).
Globally it is a blip but locally it is maybe the most important habitat in
Ireland.


or not is pretty irrelevant - the UK's ecology is as artificial as
they get, and all of those three species are very close to ones that
are native to Europe. And we need lynx to control the deer!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.