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On Feb 25, 5:39 am, "Dave Poole" wrote:
Alan Holmes wrote: Are there latin names for such things as sprouts, peas, cabbage, carrots, strawberries, runner beans and sweet corn? Brassica oleracea 'gemmifera', Pisum sativum, Brassica oleracea, Daucum carota, Fragaria x ananasa, Phaseolus coccinea, Zea mays. Now that was educational. I saw Pisum sativum, thought "surely peas can't be a type of garlic!" and googled. I now know that sativa means sown or cultivated. How shaky would my ground be if I were to assume that, as a general rule, the first word of the latin name IDs the plant and the second is sort of extra information, style of thing? -- Rob |
#2
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In message . com, Rob
Hamadi writes On Feb 25, 5:39 am, "Dave Poole" wrote: Alan Holmes wrote: Are there latin names for such things as sprouts, peas, cabbage, carrots, strawberries, runner beans and sweet corn? Brassica oleracea 'gemmifera', Pisum sativum, Brassica oleracea, Daucum carota, Fragaria x ananasa, Phaseolus coccinea, Zea mays. Now that was educational. I saw Pisum sativum, thought "surely peas can't be a type of garlic!" and googled. I now know that sativa means sown or cultivated. How shaky would my ground be if I were to assume that, as a general rule, the first word of the latin name IDs the plant and the second is sort of extra information, style of thing? -- Rob Depends on what you mean by "the plant". The first word is the genus which identifies a group of related plants, and the second word is the specific epithet, which identifies the species, which is probably what a botanist would identify as the plant. After that it all gets more complicated - species can be divided into subspecies, varieties (e.g. Malva moschata var. heterophylla, which is a variety of musk mallow with less divided leaves), forms (e.g. Malva moschata f. alba, which is the white-flowered form) and even subforms, and there are also cultivars - cultivated varieties - of several different categories, and also selling names. For example Lavatera olbia 'Eyecatcher' is a cultivar of Lavatera olbia, and Lavatera x clementii Chamallow is a selling name of the cultivar Lavatera x clementii 'Innovera'. Cultivars can be arranged in groups, e.g. Malva sylvestris Sterile Blue Group, consisting of the sterile (are they all?) blue-flowered forms of the common mallow. There are hybrids between subspecies, species and even genera giving rise to nothogenera (e.g. x Sorbopyrus, which is a hybrids between a Sorbus - I forget whether it was whitebeam or a rowan - and a pear), nothospecies (e.g. Lavatera x clementii, the common shrubby Lavatera of gardens, which is a hybrid between the shrubby Lavatera olbia and the herbaceous Lavatera thuringiaca) and nothosubspecies. Nomenclature-wise, when you get to rhododendrons and orchids you also have grexes, which include all hybrids of a particular parentage. In the case of large - or even not so large - genera, genera are divided into subgenera, sections, subsections, series and subseries. For example the common mallow, and several weedy species belong to section Malva of genus Malva, and the musk mallow, Malva moschata, the hollyhock mallow, Malva alcea, and their hybrid Malva x intermedia, belong to section Bismalva. Subgenera etc are not usually represented in the name of a plant. Above the genus plants are grouped into larger categories (all of these, including the ones described above, are collectively known as taxa - singular taxon). The required ranks are family, order, class [1] and division (or phylum), but botanists can also use subtribe, tribe, subfamily, suborder, subclass and subdivision if they want. (Zoologists have even more choices.) Informal groups of genera - groups or alliance - fill the gap between genus and subtribe in some groups. [1] The recent classifications from the Angiosperm Phylogeny Group don't use the rank of class, but define a number of informal supraordinal taxa. -- Stewart Robert Hinsley |
#3
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On Feb 25, 9:55 am, Stewart Robert Hinsley
wrote: In message . com, Rob Hamadi writes How shaky would my ground be if I were to assume that, as a general rule, the first word of the latin name IDs the plant and the second is sort of extra information, style of thing? Depends on what you mean by "the plant". The first word is the genus which identifies a group of related plants, and the second word is the specific epithet, which identifies the species, which is probably what a botanist would identify as the plant. I get you, as in (IIRC) cherries being Prunus whatever and apples being a type of rose and so forth. After that it all gets more complicated - -snip complicated stuff- You'll get no argument from me there... ;-) -- Rob |
#4
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In message . com, Rob
Hamadi writes On Feb 25, 9:55 am, Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote: In message . com, Rob Hamadi writes How shaky would my ground be if I were to assume that, as a general rule, the first word of the latin name IDs the plant and the second is sort of extra information, style of thing? Depends on what you mean by "the plant". The first word is the genus which identifies a group of related plants, and the second word is the specific epithet, which identifies the species, which is probably what a botanist would identify as the plant. I get you, as in (IIRC) cherries being Prunus whatever and apples being a type of rose and so forth. Not all Prunus are cherries - Prunus also includes almonds, plums, damsons, peaches, nectarines, apricots, bullaces, sloes, cherry laurels, etc. Apples (like Cherries) belong to the rose family (Rosaceae), but the term rose is usually restricted to genus Rosa, which doesn't include apples (which are more closely related to rowans, whitebeams, pears, hawthorns, medlars, etc). That's when rose isn't being applied to some even more distantly related plant, such as desert rose, rock rose, sun rose, Confederate rose, stone rose, Rose of China, Rose of Sharon. After that it all gets more complicated - -snip complicated stuff- You'll get no argument from me there... ;-) -- Rob -- Stewart Robert Hinsley |
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On Feb 25, 11:33 am, Stewart Robert Hinsley
wrote: In message . com, Rob Hamadi writes I get you, as in (IIRC) cherries being Prunus whatever and apples being a type of rose and so forth. Not all Prunus are cherries - Prunus also includes almonds, plums, damsons, peaches, nectarines, apricots, bullaces, sloes, cherry laurels, etc. I don't think I suggested that. I may not be much of a botanist/ horticulturalist, but I recognise a false syllogism when I see one. Apples (like Cherries) belong to the rose family (Rosaceae), but the term rose is usually restricted to genus Rosa, which doesn't include apples (which are more closely related to rowans, whitebeams, pears, hawthorns, medlars, etc). That's when rose isn't being applied to some even more distantly related plant, such as desert rose, rock rose, sun rose, Confederate rose, stone rose, Rose of China, Rose of Sharon. So Rosaceae (the family) is distinct from Rosa (the genus)? I live and learn. Would I be correct in saying that Rosa is a subset of Rosaceae? -- Rob |
#6
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In message .com, Rob
Hamadi writes On Feb 25, 11:33 am, Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote: In message . com, Rob Hamadi writes I get you, as in (IIRC) cherries being Prunus whatever and apples being a type of rose and so forth. Not all Prunus are cherries - Prunus also includes almonds, plums, damsons, peaches, nectarines, apricots, bullaces, sloes, cherry laurels, etc. I don't think I suggested that. I may not be much of a botanist/ horticulturalist, but I recognise a false syllogism when I see one. Sorry. I wasn't sure what you meant, so I included the clarification anyway. Apples (like Cherries) belong to the rose family (Rosaceae), but the term rose is usually restricted to genus Rosa, which doesn't include apples (which are more closely related to rowans, whitebeams, pears, hawthorns, medlars, etc). That's when rose isn't being applied to some even more distantly related plant, such as desert rose, rock rose, sun rose, Confederate rose, stone rose, Rose of China, Rose of Sharon. So Rosaceae (the family) is distinct from Rosa (the genus)? I live and learn. Would I be correct in saying that Rosa is a subset of Rosaceae? -- Yes. The genus Rosa is part or all [1] of the tribe Roseae which is part of subfamily Rosoideae which is part of family Rosaceae. Rob [1] It seems to be a matter of taste among botanists as to whether to break off a few fragments of Rosa as separate genera or not. -- Stewart Robert Hinsley |
#7
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In article , Stewart Robert Hinsley writes: | | Yes. The genus Rosa is part or all [1] of the tribe Roseae which is part | of subfamily Rosoideae which is part of family Rosaceae. And, if you like tribal warfare, just try and work out the level at which the pear group (including quinces) is separated from the apple group :-) That feud has been simmering for a century and a half, with most people saying "a plague on both your houses"! Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
#8
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On Feb 25, 1:29 pm, Stewart Robert Hinsley
wrote: In message .com, Rob Hamadi writes So Rosaceae (the family) is distinct from Rosa (the genus)? I live and learn. Would I be correct in saying that Rosa is a subset of Rosaceae? -- Yes. The genus Rosa is part or all [1] of the tribe Roseae which is part of subfamily Rosoideae which is part of family Rosaceae.Rob [1] It seems to be a matter of taste among botanists as to whether to break off a few fragments of Rosa as separate genera or not. Thanks. It seems to me from what you've explained that it's just* a matter of learning the "grammar" of the classification system, then expanding one's vocabulary. The fact that many of the words are Latin is, to some extent, a red herring. * I say "just", I'm sure that, at the very least, it's an awfully big just. -- Rob |
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