Hello,

Focus DIY stores are selling what they call a "black raspberry". Has
anyone heard of these? What are they? What is the difference between a
black raspberry and a blackberry?

Thanks,
Stephen.

In article ,
Stephen writes:
|
| Focus DIY stores are selling what they call a "black raspberry". Has
| anyone heard of these? What are they? What is the difference between a
| black raspberry and a blackberry?

They are different, but related, species. A black raspberry will
be a purplish raspberry - just that.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 19 Jun 2008 17:19:18 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

They are different, but related, species. A black raspberry will
be a purplish raspberry - just that.

Thanks. But what do they taste like?

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Stephen writes:
|
| Focus DIY stores are selling what they call a "black raspberry". Has
| anyone heard of these? What are they? What is the difference between a
| black raspberry and a blackberry?

They are different, but related, species. A black raspberry will
be a purplish raspberry - just that.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Botanically raspberries are subgenus Idaeobatus and blackberries are
subgenus Rubus (aka Eubatus). Rubus leucodermis and Rubus occidentalis
are black-fruited American raspberries, but whether one of these is what
Focus are selling, instead of a variant of Rubus idaeus, or a hybrid of
some description, I can't say. (Wikipedia tells me that the American
black raspberry has its own taste, distinct from both that of the
European raspberry and that of the blackberry.)

I don't know what the botanical characters are which separate the
subgenera, but horticulturally raspberries and blackberries have
different habits. Raspberries produce erect fruiting canes and spread by
rhizomes. Blackberries have a mounding or rambling growth habit, and
spread by tip-rooting.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley writes:
|
| I don't know what the botanical characters are which separate the
| subgenera, but horticulturally raspberries and blackberries have
| different habits. Raspberries produce erect fruiting canes and spread by
| rhizomes. Blackberries have a mounding or rambling growth habit, and
| spread by tip-rooting.

Only usually :-)

This came up, and someone referred to suckering blackberries, which
I said didn't happen. Well, the other poster was certain, so I looked
it up. I wuz ronk. There are UK (sub-)species that spread by suckers,
like raspberries, don't tip-root, and are common on acid soils.

Section suberecti, if you are interested, whatever that is called
nowadays.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley writes:
|
| I don't know what the botanical characters are which separate the
| subgenera, but horticulturally raspberries and blackberries have
| different habits. Raspberries produce erect fruiting canes and spread by
| rhizomes. Blackberries have a mounding or rambling growth habit, and
| spread by tip-rooting.

Only usually :-)

This came up, and someone referred to suckering blackberries, which
I said didn't happen. Well, the other poster was certain, so I looked
it up. I wuz ronk. There are UK (sub-)species that spread by suckers,
like raspberries, don't tip-root, and are common on acid soils.

Section suberecti, if you are interested, whatever that is called
nowadays.


And Japanese wineberries are, fide Wikipedia, tip-rooting raspberries.
(I had intentionally restricted the scope of my statement, to avoid such
quibbles.)
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley writes:
|
| And Japanese wineberries are, fide Wikipedia, tip-rooting raspberries.

Hmm. More reclassification!

| (I had intentionally restricted the scope of my statement, to avoid such
| quibbles.)

You should know better :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Stewart Robert Hinsley writes
In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley writes:
|
| I don't know what the botanical characters are which separate the
| subgenera, but horticulturally raspberries and blackberries have
| different habits. Raspberries produce erect fruiting canes and spread by
| rhizomes. Blackberries have a mounding or rambling growth habit, and
| spread by tip-rooting.

Only usually :-)

This came up, and someone referred to suckering blackberries, which
I said didn't happen. Well, the other poster was certain, so I looked
it up. I wuz ronk. There are UK (sub-)species that spread by suckers,
like raspberries, don't tip-root, and are common on acid soils.

Section suberecti, if you are interested, whatever that is called
nowadays.


And Japanese wineberries are, fide Wikipedia, tip-rooting raspberries.
(I had intentionally restricted the scope of my statement, to avoid
such quibbles.)

Thought they were a different species. Do you mean that they're in the
raspberry side of rubus? Or are they simply a subsp?
--
Kay

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:07:39 +0100, Stewart Robert Hinsley
wrote:

Botanically raspberries are subgenus Idaeobatus and blackberries are
subgenus Rubus (aka Eubatus). Rubus leucodermis and Rubus occidentalis
are black-fruited American raspberries, but whether one of these is what
Focus are selling, instead of a variant of Rubus idaeus, or a hybrid of
some description, I can't say. (Wikipedia tells me that the American
black raspberry has its own taste, distinct from both that of the
European raspberry and that of the blackberry.)


It's a week or so since I visited Focus so I can't remember exactly. I
think the label may have been "rubus nigra" or "rubus nigrum". I had a
look at wikipedia before posting but couldn't find anything by that
name.

In message , Stephen
writes
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:07:39 +0100, Stewart Robert Hinsley
wrote:

Botanically raspberries are subgenus Idaeobatus and blackberries are
subgenus Rubus (aka Eubatus). Rubus leucodermis and Rubus occidentalis
are black-fruited American raspberries, but whether one of these is what
Focus are selling, instead of a variant of Rubus idaeus, or a hybrid of
some description, I can't say. (Wikipedia tells me that the American
black raspberry has its own taste, distinct from both that of the
European raspberry and that of the blackberry.)


It's a week or so since I visited Focus so I can't remember exactly. I
think the label may have been "rubus nigra" or "rubus nigrum". I had a
look at wikipedia before posting but couldn't find anything by that
name.

Would you consider the possibility that it was blackcurrant (Ribes
nigrum)?

Google finds references to Rubus niger, Rubus nigra and Rubus nigrum;
the occurrences of the last are at least mostly errors for Ribes nigrum.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:40:16 +0100, Stewart Robert Hinsley
wrote:


It's a week or so since I visited Focus so I can't remember exactly. I
think the label may have been "rubus nigra" or "rubus nigrum". I had a
look at wikipedia before posting but couldn't find anything by that
name.

Would you consider the possibility that it was blackcurrant (Ribes
nigrum)?

Google finds references to Rubus niger, Rubus nigra and Rubus nigrum;
the occurrences of the last are at least mostly errors for Ribes nigrum.

Hello again,

Sorry for the delay; I was waiting until I had visited the shop again.
They are selling red raspberries and black blackberries separately, so
this is definitely "something else". I have double checked and the
label says "rubus nigrum".

Hope that helps?

Botanically raspberries are subgenus Idaeobatus and blackberries are
subgenus Rubus (aka Eubatus). Rubus leucodermis and Rubus occidentalis
are black-fruited American raspberries, but whether one of these is what
Focus are selling, instead of a variant of Rubus idaeus, or a hybrid of
some description, I can't say. (Wikipedia tells me that the American
black raspberry has its own taste, distinct from both that of the
European raspberry and that of the blackberry.)

I don't know what the botanical characters are which separate the
subgenera, but horticulturally raspberries and blackberries have
different habits. Raspberries produce erect fruiting canes and spread by
rhizomes. Blackberries have a mounding or rambling growth habit, and
spread by tip-rooting.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley[/quote]

New member, here, from across the pond but now living in the UK.

You should hope they're selling real black raspberries or "black caps" (rubus occidentalis). Speaking as a New York Stater, I can vouch for their lovely - and quite distinct - flavour. There's no mistaking them for anything else.

In fact, if it turns out Focus is indeed selling rubus occidentalis plants, please let us - or at least me - know. I'll run right out and get some. I'm just now at my parents' place in NYS, where this morning I sampled some black currant / black raspberry jam I made a few seasons ago. Scrumptious. Plus, I just found out that rubus occidentalis is supposed to be very high in free-radical-chasing goodies (alias chemopreventive phytochemicals).

Joanna Sheldon

On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:54:54 +0100, Joanna
wrote:

Rubus leucodermis and Rubus occidentalis
are black-fruited American raspberries, but whether one of these is
what Focus are selling, instead of a variant of Rubus idaeus, or a hybrid of
some description, I can't say. (Wikipedia tells me that the American
black raspberry has its own taste, distinct from both that of the
European raspberry and that of the blackberry.)


Sorry for the late update. I wrote to Focus to ask them. Unfortunately
they have not given me a definitive answer. They did however helpfully
look up "black raspberry" on the internet and pointed me towards the
wikipedia entry for R. occidentalis! I have written back to point out
that the label says R nigrum not R occidentalis and to ask them to ask
their supplier. Of course by the time this gets resolved it will be
too late to buy and plant any!

I see that garden centres still have stock of raspberries. Is it too
late to plant them? Sadly the Focus stores seem to have sold out of
the black variety and the stores which do have one or two left seem to
have a "dead stick of wood in a pot". How can I be sure it is a
dormant plant rather than a dead one before I buy?

Thanks.

I'm amazed they gave you any answer. In our local Focus, the staff give you the impression they'd rather you nicked the stuff rather than give them the bother checking it out. If you ask them if they have something, they routinely answer "no". I only go there because it is much further to go anywhere else.

Stephen wrote:

Focus DIY stores are selling what they call a "black raspberry". Has
anyone heard of these? What are they? What is the difference between a
black raspberry and a blackberry?

One thing that has not been mentioned in this thread, is the difference
in the fruit of black v. rasp-berry. When picking the blackberry the core
of the fruit comes away with the berry parts. In raspberries the core is
usually left on the plant when picked or is easily removed afterwards.

about 10 years ago I grew black raspberries from seed provided by a czech
fruit grower, Jan Kola.

He said it was descended from American black raspberry stock. They had
bluish stems, and had a classic raspberry habit (as opposed to
blackberry). I found the berries uninspiring in taste, and of a firm
texture. They were "blackberry" black in colour. Unfortunately my plants
proved susceptible to disease (I was warned they would be) and I wasn't
inspired enough to preserve seed and try again.

Jan also provided me with purple raspberry seed, of Chinese origin.
They were just like small versions of the "traditional" rasp, but of a
darker hue.

cheers
Jim