Hello,

Focus DIY stores are selling what they call a "black raspberry". Has
anyone heard of these? What are they? What is the difference between a
black raspberry and a blackberry?

Thanks,
Stephen.

In article ,
Stephen writes:
|
| Focus DIY stores are selling what they call a "black raspberry". Has
| anyone heard of these? What are they? What is the difference between a
| black raspberry and a blackberry?

They are different, but related, species. A black raspberry will
be a purplish raspberry - just that.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 19 Jun 2008 17:19:18 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

They are different, but related, species. A black raspberry will
be a purplish raspberry - just that.

Thanks. But what do they taste like?

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Stephen writes:
|
| Focus DIY stores are selling what they call a "black raspberry". Has
| anyone heard of these? What are they? What is the difference between a
| black raspberry and a blackberry?

They are different, but related, species. A black raspberry will
be a purplish raspberry - just that.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Botanically raspberries are subgenus Idaeobatus and blackberries are
subgenus Rubus (aka Eubatus). Rubus leucodermis and Rubus occidentalis
are black-fruited American raspberries, but whether one of these is what
Focus are selling, instead of a variant of Rubus idaeus, or a hybrid of
some description, I can't say. (Wikipedia tells me that the American
black raspberry has its own taste, distinct from both that of the
European raspberry and that of the blackberry.)

I don't know what the botanical characters are which separate the
subgenera, but horticulturally raspberries and blackberries have
different habits. Raspberries produce erect fruiting canes and spread by
rhizomes. Blackberries have a mounding or rambling growth habit, and
spread by tip-rooting.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley writes:
|
| I don't know what the botanical characters are which separate the
| subgenera, but horticulturally raspberries and blackberries have
| different habits. Raspberries produce erect fruiting canes and spread by
| rhizomes. Blackberries have a mounding or rambling growth habit, and
| spread by tip-rooting.

Only usually :-)

This came up, and someone referred to suckering blackberries, which
I said didn't happen. Well, the other poster was certain, so I looked
it up. I wuz ronk. There are UK (sub-)species that spread by suckers,
like raspberries, don't tip-root, and are common on acid soils.

Section suberecti, if you are interested, whatever that is called
nowadays.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley writes:
|
| I don't know what the botanical characters are which separate the
| subgenera, but horticulturally raspberries and blackberries have
| different habits. Raspberries produce erect fruiting canes and spread by
| rhizomes. Blackberries have a mounding or rambling growth habit, and
| spread by tip-rooting.

Only usually :-)

This came up, and someone referred to suckering blackberries, which
I said didn't happen. Well, the other poster was certain, so I looked
it up. I wuz ronk. There are UK (sub-)species that spread by suckers,
like raspberries, don't tip-root, and are common on acid soils.

Section suberecti, if you are interested, whatever that is called
nowadays.


And Japanese wineberries are, fide Wikipedia, tip-rooting raspberries.
(I had intentionally restricted the scope of my statement, to avoid such
quibbles.)
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley writes:
|
| And Japanese wineberries are, fide Wikipedia, tip-rooting raspberries.

Hmm. More reclassification!

| (I had intentionally restricted the scope of my statement, to avoid such
| quibbles.)

You should know better :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Stewart Robert Hinsley writes
In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley writes:
|
| I don't know what the botanical characters are which separate the
| subgenera, but horticulturally raspberries and blackberries have
| different habits. Raspberries produce erect fruiting canes and spread by
| rhizomes. Blackberries have a mounding or rambling growth habit, and
| spread by tip-rooting.

Only usually :-)

This came up, and someone referred to suckering blackberries, which
I said didn't happen. Well, the other poster was certain, so I looked
it up. I wuz ronk. There are UK (sub-)species that spread by suckers,
like raspberries, don't tip-root, and are common on acid soils.

Section suberecti, if you are interested, whatever that is called
nowadays.


And Japanese wineberries are, fide Wikipedia, tip-rooting raspberries.
(I had intentionally restricted the scope of my statement, to avoid
such quibbles.)

Thought they were a different species. Do you mean that they're in the
raspberry side of rubus? Or are they simply a subsp?
--
Kay

In message , K
writes
Stewart Robert Hinsley writes
In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley writes:
|
| I don't know what the botanical characters are which separate the
| subgenera, but horticulturally raspberries and blackberries have
| different habits. Raspberries produce erect fruiting canes and spread by
| rhizomes. Blackberries have a mounding or rambling growth habit, and
| spread by tip-rooting.

Only usually :-)

This came up, and someone referred to suckering blackberries, which
I said didn't happen. Well, the other poster was certain, so I looked
it up. I wuz ronk. There are UK (sub-)species that spread by suckers,
like raspberries, don't tip-root, and are common on acid soils.

Section suberecti, if you are interested, whatever that is called
nowadays.


And Japanese wineberries are, fide Wikipedia, tip-rooting raspberries.
(I had intentionally restricted the scope of my statement, to avoid
such quibbles.)

Thought they were a different species. Do you mean that they're in the
raspberry side of rubus? Or are they simply a subsp?

In the raspberry side of Rubus (i.e. subgenus Idaeobatus). Which is how
I originally defined raspberry, but Nick snipped that bit. There are
several dozen species in the subgenus, many of which have raspberry as
part of the vernacular name. (Flora of China has 88, which probably
means over 100 worldwide.)
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

In article ,
K writes:
| Stewart Robert Hinsley writes
|
| And Japanese wineberries are, fide Wikipedia, tip-rooting raspberries.
| (I had intentionally restricted the scope of my statement, to avoid
| such quibbles.)
|
| Thought they were a different species. Do you mean that they're in the
| raspberry side of rubus? Or are they simply a subsp?

It's unclear, certainly from Wikipedia. Given the vague nature of
what a species is among the Rubus, arguing over their exact status
is an activity best left to consenting botanists in private.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
Stewart Robert Hinsley writes:
|
| In the raspberry side of Rubus (i.e. subgenus Idaeobatus). Which is how
| I originally defined raspberry, but Nick snipped that bit. There are
| several dozen species in the subgenus, many of which have raspberry as
| part of the vernacular name. (Flora of China has 88, which probably
| means over 100 worldwide.)

Sorry :-)

But, when you have a group of species that often reproduce almost
entirely vegetatively, and are moderately inter-fertile, deciding
what a species is becomes a matter of whim. CTW's remarks about
UK blackberry taxonomy are probably appropriate.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:07:39 +0100, Stewart Robert Hinsley
wrote:

Botanically raspberries are subgenus Idaeobatus and blackberries are
subgenus Rubus (aka Eubatus). Rubus leucodermis and Rubus occidentalis
are black-fruited American raspberries, but whether one of these is what
Focus are selling, instead of a variant of Rubus idaeus, or a hybrid of
some description, I can't say. (Wikipedia tells me that the American
black raspberry has its own taste, distinct from both that of the
European raspberry and that of the blackberry.)


It's a week or so since I visited Focus so I can't remember exactly. I
think the label may have been "rubus nigra" or "rubus nigrum". I had a
look at wikipedia before posting but couldn't find anything by that
name.

In message , Stephen
writes
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:07:39 +0100, Stewart Robert Hinsley
wrote:

Botanically raspberries are subgenus Idaeobatus and blackberries are
subgenus Rubus (aka Eubatus). Rubus leucodermis and Rubus occidentalis
are black-fruited American raspberries, but whether one of these is what
Focus are selling, instead of a variant of Rubus idaeus, or a hybrid of
some description, I can't say. (Wikipedia tells me that the American
black raspberry has its own taste, distinct from both that of the
European raspberry and that of the blackberry.)


It's a week or so since I visited Focus so I can't remember exactly. I
think the label may have been "rubus nigra" or "rubus nigrum". I had a
look at wikipedia before posting but couldn't find anything by that
name.

Would you consider the possibility that it was blackcurrant (Ribes
nigrum)?

Google finds references to Rubus niger, Rubus nigra and Rubus nigrum;
the occurrences of the last are at least mostly errors for Ribes nigrum.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

Botanically raspberries are subgenus Idaeobatus and blackberries are
subgenus Rubus (aka Eubatus). Rubus leucodermis and Rubus occidentalis
are black-fruited American raspberries, but whether one of these is what
Focus are selling, instead of a variant of Rubus idaeus, or a hybrid of
some description, I can't say. (Wikipedia tells me that the American
black raspberry has its own taste, distinct from both that of the
European raspberry and that of the blackberry.)

I don't know what the botanical characters are which separate the
subgenera, but horticulturally raspberries and blackberries have
different habits. Raspberries produce erect fruiting canes and spread by
rhizomes. Blackberries have a mounding or rambling growth habit, and
spread by tip-rooting.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley[/quote]

New member, here, from across the pond but now living in the UK.

You should hope they're selling real black raspberries or "black caps" (rubus occidentalis). Speaking as a New York Stater, I can vouch for their lovely - and quite distinct - flavour. There's no mistaking them for anything else.

In fact, if it turns out Focus is indeed selling rubus occidentalis plants, please let us - or at least me - know. I'll run right out and get some. I'm just now at my parents' place in NYS, where this morning I sampled some black currant / black raspberry jam I made a few seasons ago. Scrumptious. Plus, I just found out that rubus occidentalis is supposed to be very high in free-radical-chasing goodies (alias chemopreventive phytochemicals).

Joanna Sheldon

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:40:16 +0100, Stewart Robert Hinsley
wrote:


It's a week or so since I visited Focus so I can't remember exactly. I
think the label may have been "rubus nigra" or "rubus nigrum". I had a
look at wikipedia before posting but couldn't find anything by that
name.

Would you consider the possibility that it was blackcurrant (Ribes
nigrum)?

Google finds references to Rubus niger, Rubus nigra and Rubus nigrum;
the occurrences of the last are at least mostly errors for Ribes nigrum.

Hello again,

Sorry for the delay; I was waiting until I had visited the shop again.
They are selling red raspberries and black blackberries separately, so
this is definitely "something else". I have double checked and the
label says "rubus nigrum".

Hope that helps?