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In article ,
RJBL wrote:

Cl. tetani; Cl. Welchii; various E.coli and salmonella strains and
Cryptosporidium all are risks from the use of farmyard and stable
manures. Historically, the biggest risk to agricultural labourers and
gardeners has been tetanus and gas-gangrene infections of, often, very
trivial wounds. The extent to which the organic veg growing fad has been
responsible for the increase, over the last few decades is unestimated.
Best to keep your AT injections up to date and wash and boil everything
that you eat from your veg / salad patch

Oh, nuts! WHAT increase in tetanus and gas-gangrene in the UK?

Hist, tis "unestimated"... a scientific benchmark beloved of those who
misunderestimate the term "historically"

Janet

Ed ex@directory wrote:

No, I not no expert scientist or nothing nor read scientific papers. I
am just a gardener. But I see a few articles on the web that says if you
maintain a hot heap then it will kill pathogens.. If you run a cold heap
then these things are not killed off with the heat. Hence my concern.

If there is nothing to kill off, then why worry. Many compost heaps
have diseased plant material that can harm plants. There is a concern
then. But non-caninvore and non-omnivore waste is not a major concern.

The hydrogen sulfide, methane, ammonia, and carbon dioxide given off by
fresh manure are concerns in hot or cold compost heaps. Horse manure is
a solid waste excluded from federal regulation because it neither
contains significant amounts of listed hazardous components, nor
exhibits hazardous properties. C. tetani is reportedly found in equine
manure, but does not represent a source of significant public health
risk. Many common equine helminths (worms, bots, etc.) are pathogenic
to domestic animals but are not pathogenic to man. Generally speaking,
horse guts do not contain the 120 viruses and constituents of concern in
human, dog and cat feces (carnivores and omnivores). Most viruses with
zoonotic potential (animals infecting humans) are not found in horse
wastes.

Pathogens of primary concern are waterborne microorganisms that usually
follow ingestion pathways into the body. Transmission can also occur
through direct oral-fecal exposure. These include Cryptosporidium parvum
, Giardia duodenalis, Campylocbacter spp, Salmonella spp., pathogenic
strains of E. coli, andYersinia spp. By far, C. parvum and Giardia are
the two of most concern because they have very low thresholds of
infectious dose. People infected by these organisms may exhibit a range
of symptoms from mild abdominal discomfort to death, especially among
the very young, elderly, and people with immunologically suppressed
systems. Neither of these organisms can be destroyed easily with
traditional water treatment processes.

So if you use horse manure, make sure the people that gathered it washed
their hands after using a toilet. They and their pets are much more of
a concern than the horse manure itself.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA - http://rhodyman.net

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:

Depends which E. coli you are talking about. Many strains are highly
pathogenic; I wouldn't like 0157 in me, for example, immunosuppressed or
not. More info here if you don't mind being too bored:
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/e.coli.html

For "highly", read "slightly"!

I wouldn't worry about 0157 - indeed, I may have it, for all I know
to the contrary - as it is dangerous only to the very young, very
old and immunosuppressed. If you look at the reference you gave,
most of the pathogenic forms are described as dangerous to infants.

All forms (even the symbiotic ones) are dangerous if they grow in
the wrong place, which is one of the reasons you need immunity to
a wide range of them.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Ed" ex@directory wrote in message
o.uk...
I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly
fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a few
percent.

For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up the
horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free.

In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is
heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the
horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock
areas where the horses pass their days.

The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the
energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost
heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period.

But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die
off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family
could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my
vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old?


Don't know anything about this hot or cold compost business. We don't even
have a bin, just a compost heap at the back of our garden (it's sort of
contained by two sides of a rotting fence and a neighbour's stone outhouse)
and have been 'mining' this from the bottom for the last 25 years. We dig
it out from the bottom, then riddle it through a garden sieve, and use it on
our garden and allotments. Everything organic, such as meat and veg bits
from the kitchen goes into it, as well as dead bodies of rats and mice our
cats catch, and feathers of pheasants we find on the road and prepare for
the table, and poo and stuff we find in the garden. Also any other
unpleasant thing, like food that has gone off. We cover the top of the heap
with grass cuttings when we mow the lawn, and just keep piling the stuff on.
It seems to take about 3 years for the stuff at the top to de-percolate down
to the bottom. We collect horse manure and pile it in heaps nearby and when
it rots down enough we shovel it onto the garden and allotments.

I haven't heard of anyone getting sick from using home-made compost.

WARNING: over the last year or so, horse manure is to be avoided, because
apparently horse owners and farmers are using a new toxic weedkiller which
the horses ingest in the field when grazing, and it passes through their gut
and if you use the manure, it will kill your plants off. I understand that
this will be discussed on Friday in Gardener's Question Time, BBC4,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006...sodes/upcoming

someone

Ed wrote:
I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I
regularly fill with compostable materials from home, but this only
accounts for a few percent.

For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up
the horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free.

In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is
heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the
horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock
areas where the horses pass their days.

The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the
energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost
heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period.

But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not
die off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my
family could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on
my vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old?

Ed
(South-East UK)

Horse dung hot,
horse dung cold,
horse dung in the heap 9 weeks old.

I run horses and use their manure in the garden all the time. There are
precious few if any pathogens in horse manure that will harm a human. I
know people who spend their lives shovelling dung daily without a mask and
it does them no harm.

Hot composting is to kill weed seeds, microorganisms are your friends.

David

At the risk of sounding like a nouveau Victor Meldrew, what's gone
wrong with us?

I had my hands in fresh horse manure a few months ago when I helped a
friend muck out his stables.

My dog was there and thoroughly enjoyed eating horse poo - don't ask
- it's a dog thing. I did try to stop him but that was only a bit more
effective as stopping a gourmand access to free cakes and chocolate

I'm up to date with tetanus and have been since about 5 years old.
What's the problem? Anyone gardening should be... more likely to get
it from soil than horses. Or rusty nails. Stood on them when I was a
kid, and Kate Humble's older brother (yes, she of Springwatch) threw
an electric fencing stake javelin-style at me by accident once and I
still have the scar on my knee.

Immune systems need to be built up, or grown: you won't get one unless
you do the work.

In article ,
wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:

Depends which E. coli you are talking about. Many strains are highly
pathogenic; I wouldn't like 0157 in me, for example, immunosuppressed or
not. More info here if you don't mind being too bored:
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/e.coli.html

For "highly", read "slightly"!

I wouldn't worry about 0157 - indeed, I may have it, for all I know
to the contrary - as it is dangerous only to the very young, very
old and immunosuppressed. If you look at the reference you gave,
most of the pathogenic forms are described as dangerous to infants.

In the Odwall Apple juice case an 18 month old infant died. In the Dole
spinach case, 3 octagenarians died, and in the latest, Nestle Toll House
Refrigerated Cookie Dough, no one died. However, it is reported that e.
coli O157:H7 really opens the sluices at both ends. Maybe not deadly,
but not a walk in the park, either.

The FDA suggested that you "contact your health care professional
immediately, if you or your family have recently eaten recalled cookie
dough and have had stomach cramps, vomiting, or diarrhea, with or
without bloody stools."

'Nuff said.

All forms (even the symbiotic ones) are dangerous if they grow in
the wrong place, which is one of the reasons you need immunity to
a wide range of them.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
--

- Billy

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence and
find out for themselves.
Will Rogers

http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm
http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn

"Steve Peek" wrote
Ed, your biggest concern should be whether or not the horse's paddock
was sprayed with a broadleaf herbicide. The herbicide will pass
harmlessly through the horse and wipe out you garden. Check with the
source of your manure, it would be heartbreaking to have that happen.

Yes, indeed. Farmyard or stable manure is wonderful stuff if you can get
it, but there's one particular herbicide persisting in manure that has
caused quite serious problems for some allotmenteers and gardeners in
recent years. There's info on the RHS site:
http://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile...ler-manure.asp

It can also be quite difficult to actually find out if any particular
load is 'clean', unless the source can be absolutely certain that all
their feed and bedding is clear too, because of buying and selling of
hay and silage feed.

One case I know of locally happened where cattle manure from one farm
where they didn't use this stuff was affected, unbeknownst to the
farmer, due to contaminated feed and hay bought in from elsewhere.
--
Sue

In article
,
EastneyEnder wrote:

At the risk of sounding like a nouveau Victor Meldrew, what's gone
wrong with us?

I had my hands in fresh horse manure a few months ago when I helped a
friend muck out his stables.

My dog was there and thoroughly enjoyed eating horse poo - don't ask
- it's a dog thing. I did try to stop him but that was only a bit more
effective as stopping a gourmand access to free cakes and chocolate

I'm up to date with tetanus and have been since about 5 years old.
What's the problem? Anyone gardening should be... more likely to get
it from soil than horses. Or rusty nails. Stood on them when I was a
kid, and Kate Humble's older brother (yes, she of Springwatch) threw
an electric fencing stake javelin-style at me by accident once and I
still have the scar on my knee.

Immune systems need to be built up, or grown: you won't get one unless
you do the work.

My kids in sand box growing up with cat shit. Blood feces urine =
life.


Bill no asthma here

--

Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

http://prototype.nytimes.com/gst/articleSkimmer/

Ed wrote:
I have a couple of large compost bins on my allotment which I regularly
fill with compostable materials from home, but this only accounts for a
few percent.

For the most part, I go to the local riding stables where they bag up
the horse manure and leave it outside for people to take for free.

In the winter time, when the horses are inside the stables, the mix is
heavy with straw and bedding. But now in the warmer months with the
horses outside , it is mainly stuff gathered straight off the paddock
areas where the horses pass their days.

The thing is this. The bins are 4'x3'x3' and I just do not have the
energy or strength to turn them. So , in effect they are cold compost
heaps. I let the contents rot down over a 2 year period.

But is there a danger that the pathogens in the horse dung will not die
off (as they would if I were operating a hot heap) and that my family
could become seriously ill if I use this composted material on my
vegetable plot even if it is 2 years old?

Ed
(South-East UK)


An organic farmer (US) that previously posted here said he was concerned
with contamination with a potent insecticide used to keep flies down.
He would not use it on his food crops.

Frank

"EastneyEnder" wrote in message
...
At the risk of sounding like a nouveau Victor Meldrew, what's gone
wrong with us?

I had my hands in fresh horse manure a few months ago when I helped a
friend muck out his stables.

My dog was there and thoroughly enjoyed eating horse poo - don't ask
- it's a dog thing. I did try to stop him but that was only a bit more
effective as stopping a gourmand access to free cakes and chocolate

I'm up to date with tetanus and have been since about 5 years old.
What's the problem? Anyone gardening should be... more likely to get
it from soil than horses. Or rusty nails. Stood on them when I was a
kid, and Kate Humble's older brother (yes, she of Springwatch) threw
an electric fencing stake javelin-style at me by accident once and I
still have the scar on my knee.

Immune systems need to be built up, or grown: you won't get one unless
you do the work.

Thank God for a sensible post at long last on horse manure

Get a life some of you.

My daughter and son in law bred Arabs and 'were up to their arms' in horse
muck so to speak for years. Never did any harm

Little story about being toooooooooooooooooooooooo careful and clean. Some
friends had two daughters. "Spotlessly clean" all the time, as was the
house. If one daughter fell over and dirtied her dress, BOTH were washed and
changed clothes. Those two girls were always going down with colds or what
ever there was about. No immune system to fight anything off.
--
Mike

The Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association
www.rneba.org.uk
Luxury Self Catering on the Isle of Wight?
www.shanklinmanormews.co.uk

"EastneyEnder" wrote in message
...
At the risk of sounding like a nouveau Victor Meldrew, what's gone
wrong with us?

I had my hands in fresh horse manure a few months ago when I helped a
friend muck out his stables.

My dog was there and thoroughly enjoyed eating horse poo - don't ask
- it's a dog thing. I did try to stop him but that was only a bit more
effective as stopping a gourmand access to free cakes and chocolate

I'm up to date with tetanus and have been since about 5 years old.
What's the problem? Anyone gardening should be... more likely to get
it from soil than horses. Or rusty nails. Stood on them when I was a
kid, and Kate Humble's older brother (yes, she of Springwatch) threw
an electric fencing stake javelin-style at me by accident once and I
still have the scar on my knee.

Immune systems need to be built up, or grown: you won't get one unless
you do the work.

There seems to be a lot of bull manure in this thread about horse manure.

mark

wrote:
In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:

Depends which E. coli you are talking about. Many strains are highly
pathogenic; I wouldn't like 0157 in me, for example, immunosuppressed or
not. More info here if you don't mind being too bored:
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/e.coli.html

For "highly", read "slightly"!

Depends. May be true for neonatal meningitis (1:2000), but certainly not
for UTI. Quote "Uropathogenic E. coli (UPEC) cause 90% of the urinary tract
infections (UTI) in anatomically-normal, unobstructed urinary tracts.". I
am amazed that the figure is so high. There are a lot of women out there
with UTIs caused by UPEC.

I wouldn't worry about 0157 - indeed, I may have it, for all I know
to the contrary - as it is dangerous only to the very young, very
old and immunosuppressed.

I'm not arguing about how dangerous it is, merely commenting on
pathogenicity. I've not had E. coli gut problems, but have had Salmonella,
so can speak from experience about the pathogenicity of bacteria affecting
the gut. Certainly not dangerous, but very debilitating, especially in a
tropical climate.

If you look at the reference you gave,
most of the pathogenic forms are described as dangerous to infants.

True for neonatal meningitis (couldn't really be anything else with that
name!). but not so for UTI - see above quote.

All forms (even the symbiotic ones) are dangerous if they grow in
the wrong place, which is one of the reasons you need immunity to
a wide range of them.

I definitely agree with you on that. Constant exposure to low levels of
bacteria is needed to keep the immune system ticking over properly. "Use it
or lose it" applies here!

--
Jeff

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:

Depends. May be true for neonatal meningitis (1:2000), but certainly not
for UTI. Quote "Uropathogenic E. coli (UPEC) cause 90% of the urinary tract
infections (UTI) in anatomically-normal, unobstructed urinary tracts.". I
am amazed that the figure is so high. There are a lot of women out there
with UTIs caused by UPEC.

I believe that you have misunderstood that. What I have been told
and read is that ALL variants are uropathogenic, if they establish
there, and the vast majority of such infections are normal gut flora
that have got into the wrong place. And it's not rare in men, either!
So what it means is that 90% of such UTIs are E. coli, variant unknown.
They don't usually bother to serotype further, as it doesn't affect
the treatment.

So one recommendation should definitely be not to indulge in kinky
practices with fresh horse manure :-)

More seriously, that is the reason for the various hand washing and
body washing order recommendations, and instructions to parents on how
to bathe children, especially girls.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"EastneyEnder" wrote in message
...
At the risk of sounding like a nouveau Victor Meldrew, what's gone
wrong with us?

I had my hands in fresh horse manure a few months ago when I helped a
friend muck out his stables.

My dog was there and thoroughly enjoyed eating horse poo - don't ask
- it's a dog thing.

I get horse poop & sit it in a composter for 6-12 months cold to break down.
My dogs also enjoy a tasty bit of horse dung.

rob