I'm hoping to make a very small (10 square metres) "lawn" in Tuscany,
and have read that grass requires an inordinate amount of watering,
and that other plants are used in its place in hot climates.

I've seen various apparently different species mentioned:
Ophiopogon (aka as convollaria or turquoise),
Temple grass, Japanese velvet grass, and others.

I wonder if anyone has any experience of this,
or can suggest somewhere more appropriate to ask this question?

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College Dublin

"Timothy Murphy" wrote in message
...

I'm hoping to make a very small (10 square metres) "lawn" in Tuscany,
and have read that grass requires an inordinate amount of watering,
and that other plants are used in its place in hot climates.

I've seen various apparently different species mentioned:
Ophiopogon (aka as convollaria or turquoise),
Temple grass, Japanese velvet grass, and others.

I wonder if anyone has any experience of this,
or can suggest somewhere more appropriate to ask this question?

Maybe this:

http://knol.google.com/k/mike/creati...lnvklc6qmv/30#

If you can't see this site, Google Chamomile Lawn, apparently a chamomile
lawn doesn't need much water.

HTH

someone

On 2009-07-18 23:02:45 +0100, Timothy Murphy said:


I'm hoping to make a very small (10 square metres) "lawn" in Tuscany,
and have read that grass requires an inordinate amount of watering,
and that other plants are used in its place in hot climates.

I've seen various apparently different species mentioned:
Ophiopogon (aka as convollaria or turquoise),
Temple grass, Japanese velvet grass, and others.

I wonder if anyone has any experience of this,
or can suggest somewhere more appropriate to ask this question?

I think you need to ask yourself what you're going to do with this lawn
if you achieve it. Will you sit on it in chairs sipping a cool drink
while looking at the rest of the garden? Or - not being sarcastic,
truly - will it be there just because the British have lawns? If
you're not going to use it, forget it . It will be a pain in the
fundament always. Make a water garden out of that area or a pool, or
something you'll actually use - lavender, herbs etc. I say all this
because I once nearly built a house in Crete and the one thing that
drove the locals absolutely mad with fury was people from northern
countries putting in lawns they never used and then using precious
water to keep them alive!
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
Shrubs & perennials. Tender & exotics.
South Devon

Look and see what other people in the area do and then copy it.

In article ,
Timothy Murphy wrote:

I'm hoping to make a very small (10 square metres) "lawn" in Tuscany,
and have read that grass requires an inordinate amount of watering,
and that other plants are used in its place in hot climates.

That is true, except that other plants are rarely used. Few other
plants will both form a sward and can survive being walked on to
any great extent. People sit out on patios or (traditionally) on
the bare ground - there really isn't any fundamental reason that
you have to have a lawn, patio or decking.

Actually, grass-like lawns seem quite common in eastern Tuscany.
I think there is much the same rainfall as in the UK or Ireland,
though I haven't checked.

It's not the rainfall that is most important, but the evaporation.
Some parts of the UK have less than half the rainfall of Naples
(and not much more even in July, Naples's driest month), but the
evaporation here is a fraction of what it is there.

The result is that the summer kills off the grasses that form a
sward, and so a lawn is a crazy idea. It MIGHT work at altitude
in Tuscany, but I wouldn't bet on it.

What I would do is to lay a patio (NOT on concrete), leaving some
small beds in which I would plant thyme and similar plants. That
would be a traditional Mediterranean approach.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Sacha wrote:

I'm hoping to make a very small (10 square metres) "lawn" in Tuscany,
and have read that grass requires an inordinate amount of watering,
and that other plants are used in its place in hot climates.

I've seen various apparently different species mentioned:
Ophiopogon (aka as convollaria or turquoise),
Temple grass, Japanese velvet grass, and others.

I wonder if anyone has any experience of this,
or can suggest somewhere more appropriate to ask this question?

I think you need to ask yourself what you're going to do with this lawn
if you achieve it. Will you sit on it in chairs sipping a cool drink
while looking at the rest of the garden? Or - not being sarcastic,
truly - will it be there just because the British have lawns? If
you're not going to use it, forget it . It will be a pain in the
fundament always. Make a water garden out of that area or a pool, or
something you'll actually use - lavender, herbs etc. I say all this
because I once nearly built a house in Crete and the one thing that
drove the locals absolutely mad with fury was people from northern
countries putting in lawns they never used and then using precious
water to keep them alive!

Actually, grass-like lawns seem quite common in eastern Tuscany.
I think there is much the same rainfall as in the UK or Ireland,
though I haven't checked.


--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College Dublin

wrote:

What I would do is to lay a patio (NOT on concrete), leaving some
small beds in which I would plant thyme and similar plants. That
would be a traditional Mediterranean approach.

That is indeed exactly my intention.
The "lawn" would not be walked on,
but will hopefully provide a green foreground for plants
on the garden walls.

Actually I don't think this area (near Arezzo) gets anywhere near as hot
as Naples and/or Sicily.
The hilly surrounds are remarkably green.

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College Dublin

On 2009-07-19 14:24:14 +0100, Timothy Murphy said:

wrote:

What I would do is to lay a patio (NOT on concrete), leaving some
small beds in which I would plant thyme and similar plants. That
would be a traditional Mediterranean approach.

That is indeed exactly my intention.
The "lawn" would not be walked on,
but will hopefully provide a green foreground for plants
on the garden walls.

It would look very pretty with that paving and planting between design.
My Italian mother outlaw was from Piemonte (rather different!) but one
section of her garden in Jersey, outside the swimming pool, was planted
just like with a pergola that had vines clambering over it. It was a
lovely relaxing place to be and the low growing herbs and sprawling
vines all helped to give a cool feel.

Actually I don't think this area (near Arezzo) gets anywhere near as hot
as Naples and/or Sicily.
The hilly surrounds are remarkably green.

The hills may be pine when you get up close but in any case, trees can
get their roots much further down than grass. Arezzo goes to about 30C
in summer.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
Shrubs & perennials. Tender & exotics.
South Devon

In article ,
Sacha wrote:
On 2009-07-19 14:24:14 +0100, Timothy Murphy said:

What I would do is to lay a patio (NOT on concrete), leaving some
small beds in which I would plant thyme and similar plants. That
would be a traditional Mediterranean approach.

That is indeed exactly my intention.
The "lawn" would not be walked on,
but will hopefully provide a green foreground for plants
on the garden walls.

It would look very pretty with that paving and planting between design.
My Italian mother outlaw was from Piemonte (rather different!) but one
section of her garden in Jersey, outside the swimming pool, was planted
just like with a pergola that had vines clambering over it. It was a
lovely relaxing place to be and the low growing herbs and sprawling
vines all helped to give a cool feel.

Ah! A pergola! Depending on the aspect, definitely a good idea
(perhaps only over part of the south side). Cambridge isn't as
hot, but I built one and have covered it with Vitis coignetae and
Campsis x taglibuana. Around the Mediterranean, fruiting vines
are traditional, but there are dozens of other climbers that
would do well and be low hassle.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Getting back to Ophiopogon, like its close relative Liriope, it makes
a very good, evergreen ground cover, but is totally unsuited to areas
that will be subjected to foot-traffic. They aren't remotely related
to the grasses and were formerly placed in the lily family before
being shifted to a family that includes the Butcher's Broom (Ruscus).
Nuff of the technical guff - it won't cope with mowing and is too
easily crushed for even the lightest of 'lawn use'.

If you want a lawn that will cope with your climate, then you need to
sow Bermuda grass, which is coarser than typical UK turf grasses, but
able to withstand low humdity and high temperatures quite well. It is
widely used in Mediterranean type climates throughout the world. A
quick trawl through tinternet will reveal suppliers and a confusing
gamut of varieties from which you can choose.

DaveP wrote:

If you want a lawn that will cope with your climate, then you need to
sow Bermuda grass, which is coarser than typical UK turf grasses, but
able to withstand low humdity and high temperatures quite well. It is
widely used in Mediterranean type climates throughout the world. A
quick trawl through tinternet will reveal suppliers and a confusing
gamut of varieties from which you can choose.

Thanks for the suggestion.
I've been given a long list of ideas ...


--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College Dublin

In article ,
DaveP wrote:

If you want a lawn that will cope with your climate, then you need to
sow Bermuda grass, which is coarser than typical UK turf grasses, but
able to withstand low humdity and high temperatures[*] quite well. It is
widely used in Mediterranean type climates throughout the world. A
quick trawl through tinternet will reveal suppliers and a confusing
gamut of varieties from which you can choose.
[*] As on the north side of the Mediterranean. It doesn't stand an
earthly when faced with seriously low humdity or high temperatures - i.e.
anywhere where the natural flora is scattered shrubs, because there
isn't enough water to maintain continuous cover. In those conditions,
there is NO chance of a lawn without continuously watering it.

As someone posted, look at what other people do. I would also add
that looking at the natural flora helps, because it shows not just the
humidity and rainfall but the soil properties (e.g. whether it holds
water). Even in the UK, there are a few places where the flora is
scattered plants because the soil won't hold water.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.