Hi guys, this my first time on here, so please be gentle with me.

I live in a south-facing three-storey tenement flat in Scotland. The result is that the back garden gets very little sun for part of the year, and none at all for the rest of it. Most of the back was in what was meant to be grass, but was in fact mostly moss and weeds.
I have now lifted all the "turf", buried it, and dug the lawn site to a depth of about a foot. To my surprise, the soil actually seems quite good, very black and friable, and reaonably free draining. After the first foot though, is a pan of thick yellow clay mixed with large stones, so digging it out is vitually impossible.
Having prepared the site, my original plan was to turf it, but I'm now wondering if seeding it with a shade-tolerant grass variety would be more effective.

Advice/opinions are sought please on:

The advisability of digging sand into the top foot to improve drainage, given the layer of clay beneath.
Pros & cons of turfing v seeding in the above circumstances.
Suitable varieties/mixes oif seed.

Thanks,

Ian

On Jun 16, 2:57*pm, Ian Dargie thedargREMOVE
wrote:
Hi guys, this my first time on here, so please be gentle with me.

I live in a south-facing three-storey tenement flat in Scotland. *The
result is that the back garden gets very little sun for part of the
year, and none at all for the rest of it. *Most of the back was in what
was meant to be grass, but was in fact mostly moss and weeds.
I have now lifted all the "turf", buried it, and dug the lawn site to a
depth of about a foot. *To my surprise, the soil actually seems quite
good, very black and friable, and reaonably free draining. *After the
first foot though, is a pan of thick yellow clay mixed with large
stones, so digging it out is vitually impossible. *
Having prepared the site, my original plan was to turf it, but I'm now
wondering if seeding it with a shade-tolerant grass variety would be
more effective.

Advice/opinions are sought please on:

The advisability of digging sand into the top foot to improve drainage,
given the layer of clay beneath.
Pros & cons of turfing v seeding in the above circumstances.
Suitable varieties/mixes oif seed.

Thanks,

Ian

--
Ian Dargie

You are on a hiding to nothing mate. Shade, high rainfall and, I
expect, poor drainage. There are special grasses for shady areas & you
could improvet he drainage.

On Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:57:41 +0000, Ian Dargie thedargREMOVE
wrote:


Hi guys, this my first time on here, so please be gentle with me.

I live in a south-facing three-storey tenement flat in Scotland. The
result is that the back garden gets very little sun for part of the
year, and none at all for the rest of it. Most of the back was in what
was meant to be grass, but was in fact mostly moss and weeds.
I have now lifted all the "turf", buried it, and dug the lawn site to a
depth of about a foot. To my surprise, the soil actually seems quite
good, very black and friable, and reaonably free draining. After the
first foot though, is a pan of thick yellow clay mixed with large
stones, so digging it out is vitually impossible.
Having prepared the site, my original plan was to turf it, but I'm now
wondering if seeding it with a shade-tolerant grass variety would be
more effective.

Advice/opinions are sought please on:

The advisability of digging sand into the top foot to improve drainage,
given the layer of clay beneath.
Pros & cons of turfing v seeding in the above circumstances.
Suitable varieties/mixes oif seed.

Thanks,

Ian

The fact that what you found was mostly moss and weeds is an
indication that grass isn't going to thrive. Moss loves shade and wet.
I'd certainly rule out turfing simply because decent turf is expensive
and from what you say, isn't going to survive that long.

Whilst you say you've got a foot of topsoil, a solid clay pan under
that is going to be a mega problem. With heavy rain frequent in
Scotland and your patch getting little sunlight to help water to
evaporate, you're going to find the patch getting waterlogged a fair
bit. Just digging sand into the top foot to improve drainage isn't
going to achieve much apart from helping to keep your waistline down.

Things sound a bit negative to me but let's see if we can work
something out.

First let's work out what your topsoil is made of. Have a look at the
advice at http://tinyurl.com/kdg69. Once you've worked out what your
soil is, reply to this thread and we'll go from there. It'll also help
if you let us know how big the plot is and is it level or does it
slope (a decent slope in one direction offers some promise for
drainage)? Often knowing which direction it faces helps ('cos we know
where the sunlight comes from) but from what you say it's surrounded,
and shaded, on all sides.

Cheers
Jake

On Jun 16, 2:57*pm, Ian Dargie thedargREMOVE
wrote:
Hi guys, this my first time on here, so please be gentle with me.

I live in a south-facing three-storey tenement flat in Scotland. *The
result is that the back garden gets very little sun for part of the
year, and none at all for the rest of it. *Most of the back was in what
was meant to be grass, but was in fact mostly moss and weeds.
I have now lifted all the "turf", buried it, and dug the lawn site to a
depth of about a foot. *To my surprise, the soil actually seems quite
good, very black and friable, and reaonably free draining. *After the
first foot though, is a pan of thick yellow clay mixed with large
stones, so digging it out is vitually impossible. *
Having prepared the site, my original plan was to turf it, but I'm now
wondering if seeding it with a shade-tolerant grass variety would be
more effective.

Advice/opinions are sought please on:

The advisability of digging sand into the top foot to improve drainage,
given the layer of clay beneath.
Pros & cons of turfing v seeding in the above circumstances.
Suitable varieties/mixes oif seed.

Thanks,

Ian

--
Ian Dargie

Given the location, I guess it isn't very big so why waste what little
space you have on grass that isn't going to grow well anyway.
With a bit of imagination you could make a lovely garden there and no
more or maybe even less work than grass. If I had any grass in a space
like that it would only be a token area in spaces between flower beds
and borders for example and just enough space for a seat in one of the
sunnier parts.

Rod

Rod

To be honest, I'd be thinking of planting most of the area with shade tolerant perennials (which, chosen carefully, wouldn't need regular mowing, and wouldn't need much in the way of weeding), and, if I really felt I needed grass, I'd site this at the far end away from the building where it might get a bit more sun.

First let's work out what your topsoil is made of. Have a look at the
advice at BBC - Gardening - How to be a gardener - Know your plot - Soil types. Once you've worked out what your
soil is, reply to this thread and we'll go from there. It'll also help
if you let us know how big the plot is and is it level or does it
slope (a decent slope in one direction offers some promise for
drainage)? Often knowing which direction it faces helps ('cos we know
where the sunlight comes from) but from what you say it's surrounded,
and shaded, on all sides.

Cheers
Jake[/quote]

Thanks for that, and the useful link. I've done the jam-jar test, and I reckon I've probably got a clay/loam mix. After two hours, I had quite cloudy water, with a sustantial layer of soil on the bottom, in two distict strata; fine on top, course on the bottom. I haven't done a Ph test, but in this part of the world, I think I can fairly safely say it's acid.

The plot faces north, in the shade of a three storey building. No sun whatsoever (even on those rare days when in shines!) in winter, and up to 8 hours in mid-summer, before 10 and after 2pm - in these latitudes, the sun rises in the north-east and sets in the north-west for most of June. In midwinter, it hardly rises at all, and it certainly doesn't hit this plot. It gets quite windy though, in a natural wind tunnel, and I would guess that will aid evaporation.

The plot is about 7x7m, and dead level.

Whilst I can see the merit in shrubs, perrennials, etc. my neighbours, all of whom have a share in the ground, are determined that grass is the way to go, so I am kind of in their hands.

Ian

On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 12:27:24 +0200, Martin wrote:
[...]

Go to a garden centre that stocks a large variety of grass seed and
buy seed that grows well in shady places for example under tree.

We got advice on which seed to buy and bought from
http://www.rvroger.co.uk/?linksource=frontpage near Pickering in N
Yorkshire. They also give good advice on seed potatoes and have a
large stock of varieties at the right time of year.

I assume you were satisfied with the result? I've been saying to some
friends that "shade-tolerant" may be what it says on the packet,
but,grump, grump... I'll be pleased to be proved wrong.

--
Mike.