I am germiminating Alnus seeds and growing them up under lights and I
want to grow them as big as possible as quick as possible to graft
them onto "adult" trees this spring to produce catkins and fruits next
year.

I am growing them on compost, under "Eco-Light Grow" lights (as
supplied by one of those indoor growing shops which not-quite supplies
the indoor cannabis industry). Indoors, this keeps them at 23°C, just
right. But, it's text-book stuff: Growing plants need CO2, carbon
dioxide. Would it increase their growth to provide more CO2? How might
this be done?

The most obvious thing to do is to use a CO2 cylinder, feeding the CO2
through a regulating valve. Is suitable equipment available at
reasonable cost?

The next most obvious thing to do is to go back to school chemistry
and use Kipp's apparatus, that involves limestone, not a problem, and
acid, which might be a problem.

The next easiest source of supply is a flame. Not a wax flame from
those little tea-lights, they produce soot, the last thing I want! but
a meths flame, which burns cleanly, which is why a meths flame is
dangerous. And flames in general are dangerous in a house.

And how to make sure any CO2 stays in the enclosure, over the leaves,
where it will be used?

There are ventilation holes in the top of the cowl and in the
upside-down U- trough which holds the lighting tubes, and there must
be upwards air-flow, so the seedlings will be in fresh air. So, would
it be good to put a transparent sheet (Of what? Glass, perspex, one of
many kind of plastic?) just above the seedlings and supply the CO2
under that sheet?


Michael Bell



--

In message , Michael
Bell writes
I am germiminating Alnus seeds and growing them up under lights and I
want to grow them as big as possible as quick as possible to graft
them onto "adult" trees this spring to produce catkins and fruits next
year.

I am growing them on compost, under "Eco-Light Grow" lights (as
supplied by one of those indoor growing shops which not-quite supplies
the indoor cannabis industry). Indoors, this keeps them at 23°C, just
right. But, it's text-book stuff: Growing plants need CO2, carbon
dioxide. Would it increase their growth to provide more CO2? How might
this be done?

The most obvious thing to do is to use a CO2 cylinder, feeding the CO2
through a regulating valve. Is suitable equipment available at
reasonable cost?

The next most obvious thing to do is to go back to school chemistry
and use Kipp's apparatus, that involves limestone, not a problem, and
acid, which might be a problem.

The next easiest source of supply is a flame. Not a wax flame from
those little tea-lights, they produce soot, the last thing I want! but
a meths flame, which burns cleanly, which is why a meths flame is
dangerous. And flames in general are dangerous in a house.

And how to make sure any CO2 stays in the enclosure, over the leaves,
where it will be used?

There are ventilation holes in the top of the cowl and in the
upside-down U- trough which holds the lighting tubes, and there must
be upwards air-flow, so the seedlings will be in fresh air. So, would
it be good to put a transparent sheet (Of what? Glass, perspex, one of
many kind of plastic?) just above the seedlings and supply the CO2
under that sheet?


Michael Bell

1) Adding CO2 only helps if CO2 is the limiting factor.
2) Adding CO2 has been experimentally found to result in plants more
susceptible to pests.
3) Indoor CO2 levels are usually already elevated.

4) At sufficient concentrations CO2 is toxic. While I doubt that you
would achieve those concentrations, you don't have any easy means of
monitoring concentrations.

Have you inoculated the compost with Frankia alni?
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

In message
Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:

In message , Michael
Bell writes
I am germiminating Alnus seeds and growing them up under lights and I
want to grow them as big as possible as quick as possible to graft
them onto "adult" trees this spring to produce catkins and fruits next
year.

I am growing them on compost, under "Eco-Light Grow" lights (as
supplied by one of those indoor growing shops which not-quite supplies
the indoor cannabis industry). Indoors, this keeps them at 23°C, just
right. But, it's text-book stuff: Growing plants need CO2, carbon
dioxide. Would it increase their growth to provide more CO2? How might
this be done?

The most obvious thing to do is to use a CO2 cylinder, feeding the CO2
through a regulating valve. Is suitable equipment available at
reasonable cost?

The next most obvious thing to do is to go back to school chemistry
and use Kipp's apparatus, that involves limestone, not a problem, and
acid, which might be a problem.

The next easiest source of supply is a flame. Not a wax flame from
those little tea-lights, they produce soot, the last thing I want! but
a meths flame, which burns cleanly, which is why a meths flame is
dangerous. And flames in general are dangerous in a house.

And how to make sure any CO2 stays in the enclosure, over the leaves,
where it will be used?

There are ventilation holes in the top of the cowl and in the
upside-down U- trough which holds the lighting tubes, and there must
be upwards air-flow, so the seedlings will be in fresh air. So, would
it be good to put a transparent sheet (Of what? Glass, perspex, one of
many kind of plastic?) just above the seedlings and supply the CO2
under that sheet?


Michael Bell

1) Adding CO2 only helps if CO2 is the limiting factor.
2) Adding CO2 has been experimentally found to result in plants more
susceptible to pests.
3) Indoor CO2 levels are usually already elevated.

4) At sufficient concentrations CO2 is toxic. While I doubt that you
would achieve those concentrations, you don't have any easy means of
monitoring concentrations.

One possibility is to fill the space with my outbreath - about 4% CO2

Have you inoculated the compost with Frankia alni?

I have mixed in soil which had Alnus in last year, just a very little
bit. But growing compost contains enough nitrates for the first few
weeks.

Michael Bell


--

On Dec 29, 3:15*pm, Michael Bell wrote:
In message
* * * * * Stewart Robert Hinsley wrote:



In message , Michael
Bell writes
I am germiminating Alnus seeds and growing them up under lights and I
want to grow them as big as possible as quick as possible to graft
them onto "adult" trees this spring to produce catkins and fruits next
year.

I am growing them on compost, under "Eco-Light Grow" lights (as
supplied by one of those indoor growing shops which not-quite supplies
the indoor cannabis industry). Indoors, this keeps them at 23°C, just
right. But, it's text-book stuff: Growing plants need CO2, carbon
dioxide. Would it increase their growth to provide more CO2? How might
this be done?

The most obvious thing to do is to use a CO2 cylinder, feeding the CO2
through a regulating valve. Is suitable equipment available at
reasonable cost?

The next most obvious thing to do is to go back to school chemistry
and use Kipp's apparatus, that involves limestone, not a problem, and
acid, which might be a problem.

The next easiest source of supply is a flame. Not a wax flame from
those little tea-lights, they produce soot, the last thing I want! but
a meths flame, which burns cleanly, which is why a meths flame is
dangerous. And flames in general are dangerous in a house.

And how to make sure any CO2 stays in the enclosure, over the leaves,
where it will be used?

There are ventilation holes in the top of the cowl and in the
upside-down U- trough which holds the lighting tubes, and there must
be upwards air-flow, so the seedlings will be in fresh air. So, would
it be good to put a transparent sheet (Of what? Glass, perspex, one of
many kind of plastic?) just above the seedlings and supply the CO2
under that sheet?

Michael Bell

1) Adding CO2 only helps if CO2 is the limiting factor.
2) Adding CO2 has been experimentally found to result in plants more
susceptible to pests.
3) Indoor CO2 levels are usually already elevated.
4) At sufficient concentrations CO2 is toxic. While I doubt that you
would achieve those concentrations, you don't have any easy means of
monitoring concentrations.

One possibility is to fill the space with my outbreath - about 4% CO2

Have you inoculated the compost with Frankia alni?

I have mixed in soil which had Alnus in last year, just a very little
bit. But growing compost contains enough nitrates for the first few
weeks.

Michael Bell

Indoor CO2 levels are already well above outdoor, especially in modern
fairly well sealed houses. Lighting is far more likely to be a
limiting factor. I don't know what type of lighting you're using, that
might be more productive to discuss.

If adding more CO2 helped growth, use of gas & paraffin heaters would
presumably be more widespread in greenhouses.

NT

In article ,
NT wrote:

If adding more CO2 helped growth, use of gas & paraffin heaters would
presumably be more widespread in greenhouses.

I saw a summary of some research on this a while back. It's very
complicated, as you might expect, but far more plants suffer from
raised levels than benefit from them. As you say, in the UK, light
is the main limit - but there a zillion other factors, and each
species has different requirements.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 12/29/2011 03:13 PM, Michael Bell wrote:
I am germiminating Alnus seeds and growing them up under lights and I
[]

Hi Michael,

OT of this thread but I wanted to mention to you that I recently ran
across a paper that confirms that for Acer pseudoplatanus there is a
positive correlation between seed size and growth rate (seedling
weight). Further 20-30 yr old trees grown from large seed produce a
larger percentage of viable seed (non-parthenocarpic). I think it's a
fair guess that the same holds true for Alnus ssp.

I believe this is the link but I didn't mark it at the time:

http://www.valbro.uni-freiburg.de/pdf/paper_acer.pdf

-E

In message
Emery Davis wrote:

On 12/29/2011 03:13 PM, Michael Bell wrote:
I am germiminating Alnus seeds and growing them up under lights and I
[]

Hi Michael,

OT of this thread but I wanted to mention to you that I recently ran
across a paper that confirms that for Acer pseudoplatanus there is a
positive correlation between seed size and growth rate (seedling
weight). Further 20-30 yr old trees grown from large seed produce a
larger percentage of viable seed (non-parthenocarpic). I think it's a
fair guess that the same holds true for Alnus ssp.

I believe this is the link but I didn't mark it at the time:

http://www.valbro.uni-freiburg.de/pdf/paper_acer.pdf

-E
Thank you for this, but it's a long way down the road for me.

Michael Bell

--

In message
wrote:

In article
ups.com,
NT wrote:

If adding more CO2 helped growth, use of gas & paraffin heaters would
presumably be more widespread in greenhouses.

I saw a summary of some research on this a while back. It's very
complicated, as you might expect, but far more plants suffer from
raised levels than benefit from them. As you say, in the UK, light
is the main limit - but there a zillion other factors, and each
species has different requirements.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

OK, Let's discuss lighting. I have lost the original paperwork and the
hydroponics shop I bought it from is no longer there (Bust for
cannabis growing? How evil-minded can you get?) but searching through
the web, I am using a hood looking very like this

http://www.greenshorticulture.co.uk/...t-CFL-Systems/

except it has two lights side-by-side, and the lights are labelled
"Eco-light Grow 200W 220 - 240V 50 - 60Hz 6400K". They look "the
business" and I am sure they are. I have had this kit for 1 year and
they grew well last year, but due to a series of mishaps I am making a
later start this year. I want my seedlings to be big and strong, just
like a parent, and I am a craftsman and a maximalist. So how do I get
the seedlings big and strong? I can't see any way of giving them more
light, so my thoughts turn to more CO2. Would it help to breathe into
the box? (I have set the hood into a wooden box about 60 x 60 cm
putting the lights about 40 cm above the compost) There is obviously
natural ventilation, you can see the slots for it in the picture.
Would I get my CO2-rich air to stay longer if I put a sheet of
something transparent (glass, perspex, other plastic) between the
lights (which do need to be cooled) and the seedlings? I walk past on
household business every half an hour so it would not be too great a
chore to breathe into it every time I pass.

Michael Bell

--

There is some equipment he

CO2 Enrichment equipment from Growco Indoor Garden Supply

IIRCC tomato growers enrich to around 1,000ppm.

On 29/12/11 14:13, Michael Bell wrote:

....

The next most obvious thing to do is to go back to school chemistry
and use Kipp's apparatus, that involves limestone, not a problem, and
acid, which might be a problem.

Yeast?

Hugh

--

Hugh Newbury

www.evershot-weather.org

In message
Granity wrote:


I am growing them on compost, under "Eco-Light Grow" lights (as
supplied by one of those indoor growing shops which not-quite supplies
the indoor cannabis industry). Indoors, this keeps them at 23°C, just
right. But, it's text-book stuff: Growing plants need CO2, carbon
dioxide. Would it increase their growth to provide more CO2? How might
this be done?

The most obvious thing to do is to use a CO2 cylinder, feeding the CO2
through a regulating valve. Is suitable equipment available at
reasonable cost?


There is some equipment he

'CO2 Enrichment equipment from Growco Indoor Garden Supply'
(http://tinyurl.com/7adj4nc)

IIRCC tomato growers enrich to around 1,000ppm.

Very informative - but American! An ocean and a tarif barrier away. I
wonder if there are British or even Dutch equivalents - I could
stumble through languages.

Michael Bell




--

Sorry, try this one for the UK
Carbon Dioxide Solutions : Norfolk Lights Hydroponics Shop, UK Center

In message
Granity wrote:


Michael Bell;946111 Wrote:
In message
Granity wrote:

--
I am growing them on compost, under "Eco-Light Grow" lights (as
supplied by one of those indoor growing shops which not-quite supplies
the indoor cannabis industry). Indoors, this keeps them at 23°C, just
right. But, it's text-book stuff: Growing plants need CO2, carbon
dioxide. Would it increase their growth to provide more CO2? How might
this be done?

The most obvious thing to do is to use a CO2 cylinder, feeding the CO2
through a regulating valve. Is suitable equipment available at
reasonable cost?
--
-
There is some equipment he-
-
'CO2 Enrichment equipment from Growco Indoor Garden Supply'
('CO2 Enrichment equipment from Growco Indoor Garden Supply'
(http://tinyurl.com/7adj4nc))-
-
IIRCC tomato growers enrich to around 1,000ppm.-

Very informative - but American! An ocean and a tarif barrier away. I
wonder if there are British or even Dutch equivalents - I could
stumble through languages.

Michael Bell

--

Sorry, try this one for the UK
'Carbon Dioxide Solutions : Norfolk Lights Hydroponics Shop, UK Center'
(http://tinyurl.com/7nlzfu6)

Very good! You either know of it or are better at using google. I'll
look into it.

Michael Bell



--

On Dec 30 2011, 5:04*pm, Michael Bell
wrote:
In message
* * * * * wrote:

In article
ups.com,
NT wrote:

If adding more CO2 helped growth, use of gas & paraffin heaters would
presumably be more widespread in greenhouses.
I saw a summary of some research on this a while back. *It's very
complicated, as you might expect, but far more plants suffer from
raised levels than benefit from them. *As you say, in the UK, light
is the main limit - but there a zillion other factors, and each
species has different requirements.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

OK, Let's discuss lighting. I have lost the original paperwork and the
hydroponics shop I bought it from is no longer there (Bust for
cannabis growing? How evil-minded can you get?) but searching through
the web, I am using a hood looking very like this

http://www.greenshorticulture.co.uk/...ts/CFL-Grow-Li...

except it has two lights side-by-side, and the lights are labelled
"Eco-light Grow 200W 220 - 240V 50 - 60Hz 6400K". They look "the
business" and I am sure they are. I have had this kit for 1 year and
they grew well last year, but due to a series of mishaps I am making a
later start this year. I want my seedlings to be big and strong, just
like a parent, and I am a craftsman and a maximalist. So how do I get
the seedlings big and strong? I can't see any way of giving them more
light,

You've not told us what type of lights they are. 200w 6400K suggests
mercury fluorescent, possibly folded into giant cfl format. You've not
told us how many plants, or how far away your lighting is from them.
If I were to add a 3rd light, I'd probably pick low pressure sodium,
or maybe replace one of the fluorescents with HPS.


NT

In message
ups.com
NT wrote:

On Dec 30 2011, 5:04*pm, Michael Bell
wrote:
In message
* * * * * wrote:

In article
ups.com,
NT wrote:

If adding more CO2 helped growth, use of gas & paraffin heaters would
presumably be more widespread in greenhouses.
I saw a summary of some research on this a while back. *It's very
complicated, as you might expect, but far more plants suffer from
raised levels than benefit from them. *As you say, in the UK, light
is the main limit - but there a zillion other factors, and each
species has different requirements.
Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

OK, Let's discuss lighting. I have lost the original paperwork and the
hydroponics shop I bought it from is no longer there (Bust for
cannabis growing? How evil-minded can you get?) but searching through
the web, I am using a hood looking very like this

http://www.greenshorticulture.co.uk/...ts/CFL-Grow-Li...

except it has two lights side-by-side, and the lights are labelled
"Eco-light Grow 200W 220 - 240V 50 - 60Hz 6400K". They look "the
business" and I am sure they are. I have had this kit for 1 year and
they grew well last year, but due to a series of mishaps I am making a
later start this year. I want my seedlings to be big and strong, just
like a parent, and I am a craftsman and a maximalist. So how do I get
the seedlings big and strong? I can't see any way of giving them more
light,

You've not told us what type of lights they are. 200w 6400K suggests
mercury fluorescent, possibly folded into giant cfl format. You've not
told us how many plants, or how far away your lighting is from them.
If I were to add a 3rd light, I'd probably pick low pressure sodium,
or maybe replace one of the fluorescents with HPS.


NT

I think I have told you (above) what the lights are. They are a ring
of U-shaped tubes which look like bigger versions of the
"energy-saving" lights you get for home use. The lights were sold to
go with this

http://www.basementlighting.com/Merc...ge=1/prod/SMTR

which is most definitely the hood over it, the bottom of the hood is
30 cms from the plants. In a room kept at about 17°C it keeps the
plants at 23°C which I think it just nice. I don't know what more I
can say.

Michael Bell


--