I have a paddock down in the village, a mile and a half away that I kept
goats on for many years.
Since my last goat passed away of old age quite a while ago, I have hardly
visited it, it was very overgrown and a target for flytippers as a public
footpath runs along oone side.
A few weeks ago my brother suggested that we cultivate it as a family and I
was very pleased, as 1/3 acre of nettles and brambles was too daunting for
me.
He has a friend with a mini digger and he was pleased to have a chance to
play with his boy's toy, so they spent a whole day clearing about half of it
ten days ago and making a path towards the tap, yes, it has water on site!

We'll be able to grow organically as never a touch of chemicals has ever
gone near it since I bought it in 1982ish.
I've had an enquiry from a beekeeper who would like to have a few hives on
there and will visit him to discuss. I'm likely to agree to that. He also
wants a plot and I will probably say no to that atm.
I spent a nice few hours down there today with my brother who has the week
off work, me sowing salad vegs (just lettuce, radish and spring onions for
now) on a bit my bro had dug over, removed all the nettle roots from and
raked to a fine tilth, while he dug another bit over to make a separate bed.
My garden at home is large in area, but long and thin and shaded by trees. I
try to grow veggies but they certainly suffer from the shading and don't do
very well.
The paddock is wide and open, no trees, plenty of sun.
This will be wonderful, if my bro maintains his interest. He has 3 children
under 12 to feed so he probably will.
When the digger was there all the neighbours came out of the woodwork. "Can
we have a plot, buy a bit?"

I was in a desperate situation when I bought this land. I had a rented
place with stables for my goats and suddenly the owner gave me 3 months
notice to quit as he wanted to build there. I had seven goats at the time
and the only land available was this piece. The current owner of it had
been refused planning permission on it so he was up for selling it, but like
villages are, the word had got around that my goats would soon be homeless.
I ended up paying half as much as my house cost at that time for it and had
two large mortgages, more so as I had to pay the loan for the land off in 5
years.
I'm not inclined to let plots off for 10 quid a year or whatever is the
going rate, more so because I discovered that if I do I need liability
insurance.

Hey, I'm really excited. I want to grow everything that I never could in my
shaded garden!
However, it's quite rough atm. Even the digger did not get rid of some of
those dreadful tufts of grass and there is huge heap of the ones that it
did. 20 yards long and three feet high. Will this rot down to grow
courgettes in? she says hopefully.
We haven't attacked the brambles yet. 50 yards x 15 yards at least. How to
do it organically as that's the way we want to go? I suspect slash and
burn.
Now if I still had goats, not a bramble will live as they love them.
Tina

"Christina Websell" wrote ...


I have a paddock down in the village, a mile and a half away that I kept
goats on for many years.
Since my last goat passed away of old age quite a while ago, I have hardly
visited it, it was very overgrown and a target for flytippers as a public
footpath runs along oone side.
A few weeks ago my brother suggested that we cultivate it as a family and I
was very pleased, as 1/3 acre of nettles and brambles was too daunting for
me.
He has a friend with a mini digger and he was pleased to have a chance to
play with his boy's toy, so they spent a whole day clearing about half of
it ten days ago and making a path towards the tap, yes, it has water on
site!

We'll be able to grow organically as never a touch of chemicals has ever
gone near it since I bought it in 1982ish.
I've had an enquiry from a beekeeper who would like to have a few hives on
there and will visit him to discuss. I'm likely to agree to that. He also
wants a plot and I will probably say no to that atm.
I spent a nice few hours down there today with my brother who has the week
off work, me sowing salad vegs (just lettuce, radish and spring onions for
now) on a bit my bro had dug over, removed all the nettle roots from and
raked to a fine tilth, while he dug another bit over to make a separate
bed.
My garden at home is large in area, but long and thin and shaded by trees.
I try to grow veggies but they certainly suffer from the shading and don't
do very well.
The paddock is wide and open, no trees, plenty of sun.
This will be wonderful, if my bro maintains his interest. He has 3
children under 12 to feed so he probably will.
When the digger was there all the neighbours came out of the woodwork.
"Can we have a plot, buy a bit?"

I was in a desperate situation when I bought this land. I had a rented
place with stables for my goats and suddenly the owner gave me 3 months
notice to quit as he wanted to build there. I had seven goats at the time
and the only land available was this piece. The current owner of it had
been refused planning permission on it so he was up for selling it, but
like villages are, the word had got around that my goats would soon be
homeless.
I ended up paying half as much as my house cost at that time for it and had
two large mortgages, more so as I had to pay the loan for the land off in 5
years.
I'm not inclined to let plots off for 10 quid a year or whatever is the
going rate, more so because I discovered that if I do I need liability
insurance.

Hey, I'm really excited. I want to grow everything that I never could in
my shaded garden!
However, it's quite rough atm. Even the digger did not get rid of some of
those dreadful tufts of grass and there is huge heap of the ones that it
did. 20 yards long and three feet high. Will this rot down to grow
courgettes in? she says hopefully.
We haven't attacked the brambles yet. 50 yards x 15 yards at least. How
to do it organically as that's the way we want to go? I suspect slash and
burn.
Now if I still had goats, not a bramble will live as they love them.


You may be interested that the full price of allotments in Runnymede BC is
£13.80 per sq Rod (Pole or Perch), effectively 5 metres by 5 metres. And
that is cheaper because we pay by DD. We also get a 50% reduction for being
old farts so for us it's "just" £6.75 a sq Rod.
At full price a standard 10 sq Rod allotment would be £138.00 per annum.
Water is available although no hoses are ever allowed, they don't do much
else for us except inspect every 3 months and write if they see an
uncultivated plot.
Those prices may change your mind about the financial consequences of
renting out bits although you may need parking/fencing/ and strict
inspections to throw off any useless gardeners.
BTW the bees will need a 6ft high fence around the hives so they fly up and
away not into people.
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

"Christina Websell" wrote in
:


I have a paddock down in the village, a mile and a half away that I
kept goats on for many years.
Since my last goat passed away of old age quite a while ago, I have
hardly visited it, it was very overgrown and a target for flytippers
as a public footpath runs along oone side.
A few weeks ago my brother suggested that we cultivate it as a family
and I was very pleased, as 1/3 acre of nettles and brambles was too
daunting for me.
He has a friend with a mini digger and he was pleased to have a chance
to play with his boy's toy, so they spent a whole day clearing about
half of it ten days ago and making a path towards the tap, yes, it has
water on site!

We'll be able to grow organically as never a touch of chemicals has
ever gone near it since I bought it in 1982ish.
I've had an enquiry from a beekeeper who would like to have a few
hives on there and will visit him to discuss. I'm likely to agree to
that. He also wants a plot and I will probably say no to that atm.
I spent a nice few hours down there today with my brother who has the
week off work, me sowing salad vegs (just lettuce, radish and spring
onions for now) on a bit my bro had dug over, removed all the nettle
roots from and raked to a fine tilth, while he dug another bit over to
make a separate bed. My garden at home is large in area, but long and
thin and shaded by trees. I try to grow veggies but they certainly
suffer from the shading and don't do very well.
The paddock is wide and open, no trees, plenty of sun.
This will be wonderful, if my bro maintains his interest. He has 3
children under 12 to feed so he probably will.
When the digger was there all the neighbours came out of the woodwork.
"Can we have a plot, buy a bit?"

I was in a desperate situation when I bought this land. I had a
rented place with stables for my goats and suddenly the owner gave me
3 months notice to quit as he wanted to build there. I had seven
goats at the time and the only land available was this piece. The
current owner of it had been refused planning permission on it so he
was up for selling it, but like villages are, the word had got around
that my goats would soon be homeless. I ended up paying half as much
as my house cost at that time for it and had two large mortgages, more
so as I had to pay the loan for the land off in 5 years.
I'm not inclined to let plots off for 10 quid a year or whatever is
the going rate, more so because I discovered that if I do I need
liability insurance.

Hey, I'm really excited. I want to grow everything that I never could
in my shaded garden!
However, it's quite rough atm. Even the digger did not get rid of
some of those dreadful tufts of grass and there is huge heap of the
ones that it did. 20 yards long and three feet high. Will this rot
down to grow courgettes in? she says hopefully.
We haven't attacked the brambles yet. 50 yards x 15 yards at least.
How to do it organically as that's the way we want to go? I suspect
slash and burn.
Now if I still had goats, not a bramble will live as they love them.
Tina


A BIG project, but how I envy you.

By the sound of it you might do well cultivating the one half for this
year and get some veg. plants into the rough areas, some spuds, loads of
them. The season is getting on now, but still lots of time to get this
veg plot started big style.
That digger is going to be a godsend when that heap rots down.

What about a couple more goats?
I would love to have chickens on a plot such as yours.

Let us know frequently how it's going please.
Baz

On Apr 2, 11:49*pm, "Christina Websell"
wrote:
I have a paddock down in the village, a mile and a half away that I kept
goats on for many years.
Since my last goat passed away of old age quite a while ago, I have hardly
visited it, *it was very overgrown and a target for flytippers as a public
footpath runs along oone side.
A few weeks ago my brother suggested that we cultivate it as a family and I
was very pleased, as 1/3 acre of nettles and brambles was too daunting for
me.
He has a friend with a mini digger and he was pleased to have a chance to
play with his boy's toy, so they spent a whole day clearing about half of it
ten days ago and making a path towards the tap, yes, it has water on site!

We'll be able to grow organically as never a touch of chemicals has ever
gone near it since I bought it in 1982ish.
I've had an enquiry from a beekeeper who would like to have a few hives on
there and will visit him to discuss. *I'm likely to agree to that. *He also
wants a plot and I will probably say no to that atm.
I spent a nice few hours down there today with my brother who has the week
off work, *me sowing salad vegs (just lettuce, radish and spring onions for
now) *on a bit my bro had dug over, removed all the nettle roots from and
raked to a fine tilth, while he dug another bit over to make a separate bed.
My garden at home is large in area, but long and thin and shaded by trees.. I
try to grow veggies but they certainly suffer from the shading and don't do
very well.
The paddock is wide and open, no trees, plenty of sun.
This will be wonderful, if my bro maintains his interest. *He has 3 children
under 12 to feed so he probably will.
When the digger was there all the neighbours came out of the woodwork. *"Can
we have a plot, buy a bit?"

I was in a desperate situation when I bought this land. *I had a rented
place with stables for my goats and suddenly the owner gave me 3 months
notice to quit as he wanted to build there. *I had seven goats at the time
and the only land available was this piece. *The current owner of it had
been refused planning permission on it so he was up for selling it, but like
villages are, the word had got around that my goats would soon be homeless.
I ended up paying half as much as my house cost at that time for it and had
two large mortgages, more so as I had to pay the loan for the land off in 5
years.
I'm not inclined to let plots off for 10 quid a year or whatever is the
going rate, more so because I discovered that if I do I need liability
insurance.

Hey, I'm really excited. *I want to grow everything that I never could in my
shaded garden!
However, it's quite rough atm. *Even the digger did not get rid of some of
those dreadful tufts of grass and there is huge heap of the ones that it
did. *20 yards long and three feet high. *Will this rot down to grow
courgettes in? she says hopefully.
We haven't attacked the brambles yet. *50 yards x 15 yards at least. *How to
do it organically as that's the way we want to go? *I suspect slash and
burn.
Now if I still had goats, not a bramble will live as they love them.
Tina

Brambles are prolific croppers, the fruits are of good quality, they
freeze raw perfectly, they make great pies, and you can put them on
cereals straight from the freezer, no need to defrost, and kids like
eating them stright off the plant, and can be persuaded to pick lots
extra while eating. Some children are happy to jam them too. On a good
sized plot like yours I'd surely keep some brambles - but not 15x50
yards

Nettles are also good food with a wide range of uses including several
curries, flans, tea, soups, sandwich filler, risotto, rarebit, nettle
chocolate pudding, nettle mint sauce, a mild version of pesto, in
blackcurrant nettle pies, in lasagne & other pasta dishes, dried &
mixed as stock cubes, and even for kids to tie dye with. But
harvesting and washing require some basic mechanisation to be
worthwhile.

Brambles succumb to persistence. But so, often, do gardeners. A way to
improve the fight is to cover the ground with cardboard, then without
light the new shoots die quicker. I presume fire would get an initial
clearance, but I've not yet cleared a large amount of brambles, I tend
to treat them as friendly, even in quantity.


NT

"Christina Websell" wrote ((SNIP))

However, it's quite rough atm. Even the digger did not get rid of some of
those dreadful tufts of grass and there is huge heap of the ones that it
did. 20 yards long and three feet high. Will this rot down to grow
courgettes in? she says hopefully.

Yes, especially if you cover it with plastic and plant through that.

We haven't attacked the brambles yet. 50 yards x 15 yards at least. How
to do it organically as that's the way we want to go? I suspect slash and
burn.

What we did was burn them down and clear up any bits that didn't. Then I
mowed and kept mowing for a season, they didn't come back the following
year.
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

On 02/04/2012 23:49, Christina Websell wrote:

We haven't attacked the brambles yet. 50 yards x 15 yards at least. How to
do it organically as that's the way we want to go? I suspect slash and
burn.
Now if I still had goats, not a bramble will live as they love them.

Borrow a goat?

Seriously though unless you are going for Organic(TM) certification to
rob the worried well with overpriced and overpackaged imperfect fruit
and veg at the local supermarket you might as well use glyphosate to
clear the brambles followed a few weeks later by fire.

It will be more environmentally friendly in the long run than all the
fuel you will use in the minidigger doing it "Organically".

It is by far the easiest way to clear brambles and nettles (the latter
are fairly shallow rooted and can be cleared mechanically). Ivy and
holly and some buttercup will survive glyphosate but not fire.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...

You may be interested that the full price of allotments in Runnymede BC is
£13.80 per sq Rod (Pole or Perch), effectively 5 metres by 5 metres. And
that is cheaper because we pay by DD. We also get a 50% reduction for
being old farts so for us it's "just" £6.75 a sq Rod.
At full price a standard 10 sq Rod allotment would be £138.00 per annum.
Water is available although no hoses are ever allowed, they don't do much
else for us except inspect every 3 months and write if they see an
uncultivated plot.
Those prices may change your mind about the financial consequences of
renting out bits although you may need parking/fencing/ and strict
inspections to throw off any useless gardeners.

I'm more concerned about having to pay for liability insurance than making
money from it, tbh. There is no parking, it is landlocked. It's very well
fenced now, only a bit had come down and it is now repaired with 6 ft
chainlink along the public footpath.


BTW the bees will need a 6ft high fence around the hives so they fly up
and away not into people.

The place I have in mind on the ground for the hives isn't near people, it
is at the bottom of everyone's garden who lives around it and at the
furthest point from the public footpath. Do you think that would still be
necessary, the nearby fences are quite high?
If you do think so, I can make that a condition that the beekeeper does it.
I asked my bro where he keeps his bees already and he said "he doesn't have
any yet - he's been on a beekeeping course and wants to keep bees."

I am up for encouraging that. He only lives a few houses away from the
paddock. When I wanted to keep goats, I had to find someone prepared to
rent me land to do it and so I will try and help him to keep bees, if that's
what he wants. The rent will be a few jars of honey a year and occasional
help with watering my veggies in a dry spell since he will be there anyway.

However, I have not met him yet. I intend to discuss his plans this
weekend, first on the phone and then a visit. I am sure we will come to a
mutually acceptable situation.
It will not include him growing veggies there for now.

Tina

"Baz" wrote in message
.. .
However, it's quite rough atm. Even the digger did not get rid of
some of those dreadful tufts of grass and there is huge heap of the
ones that it did. 20 yards long and three feet high. Will this rot
down to grow courgettes in? she says hopefully.
We haven't attacked the brambles yet. 50 yards x 15 yards at least.
How to do it organically as that's the way we want to go? I suspect
slash and burn.
Now if I still had goats, not a bramble will live as they love them.
Tina


A BIG project, but how I envy you.

By the sound of it you might do well cultivating the one half for this
year and get some veg. plants into the rough areas, some spuds, loads of
them. The season is getting on now, but still lots of time to get this
veg plot started big style.
That digger is going to be a godsend when that heap rots down.

Yes, we will do spuds, my bro will be planting his seed potatoes tomorrow.

What about a couple more goats?

No. I really loved them, had them for more than 20 years, but I do not want
to get in my car twice a day now to visit them. That's the minimum.

I would love to have chickens on a plot such as yours.

I have chickens here, at home.

Let us know frequently how it's going please.
Baz

Will do.

"NT" wrote in message
...
Brambles are prolific croppers, the fruits are of good quality, they
freeze raw perfectly, they make great pies, and you can put them on
cereals straight from the freezer, no need to defrost, and kids like
eating them stright off the plant, and can be persuaded to pick lots
extra while eating. Some children are happy to jam them too. On a good
sized plot like yours I'd surely keep some brambles - but not 15x50
yards

Nettles are also good food with a wide range of uses including several
curries, flans, tea, soups, sandwich filler, risotto, rarebit, nettle
chocolate pudding, nettle mint sauce, a mild version of pesto, in
blackcurrant nettle pies, in lasagne & other pasta dishes, dried &
mixed as stock cubes, and even for kids to tie dye with. But
harvesting and washing require some basic mechanisation to be
worthwhile.

Brambles succumb to persistence. But so, often, do gardeners. A way to
improve the fight is to cover the ground with cardboard, then without
light the new shoots die quicker. I presume fire would get an initial
clearance, but I've not yet cleared a large amount of brambles, I tend
to treat them as friendly, even in quantity.

______
I agree about brambles and nettles - but you really can have too many and on
my paddock, due to my neglect, we have a bramble thicket, sneering from it's
position "the digger didn't get me yet"
But it will..
Tina

"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...
"Christina Websell" wrote ((SNIP))

However, it's quite rough atm. Even the digger did not get rid of some
of those dreadful tufts of grass and there is huge heap of the ones that
it did. 20 yards long and three feet high. Will this rot down to grow
courgettes in? she says hopefully.

Yes, especially if you cover it with plastic and plant through that.

Excellent!

We haven't attacked the brambles yet. 50 yards x 15 yards at least. How
to do it organically as that's the way we want to go? I suspect slash and
burn.

What we did was burn them down and clear up any bits that didn't. Then I
mowed and kept mowing for a season, they didn't come back the following
year.

These are serious brambles, will this work?

"Christina Websell" wrote ...


"Bob Hobden" wrote

You may be interested that the full price of allotments in Runnymede BC
is £13.80 per sq Rod (Pole or Perch), effectively 5 metres by 5 metres.
And that is cheaper because we pay by DD. We also get a 50% reduction for
being old farts so for us it's "just" £6.75 a sq Rod.
At full price a standard 10 sq Rod allotment would be £138.00 per annum.
Water is available although no hoses are ever allowed, they don't do much
else for us except inspect every 3 months and write if they see an
uncultivated plot.
Those prices may change your mind about the financial consequences of
renting out bits although you may need parking/fencing/ and strict
inspections to throw off any useless gardeners.

I'm more concerned about having to pay for liability insurance than making
money from it, tbh. There is no parking, it is landlocked. It's very well
fenced now, only a bit had come down and it is now repaired with 6 ft
chainlink along the public footpath.


BTW the bees will need a 6ft high fence around the hives so they fly up
and away not into people.

The place I have in mind on the ground for the hives isn't near people, it
is at the bottom of everyone's garden who lives around it and at the
furthest point from the public footpath. Do you think that would still be
necessary, the nearby fences are quite high?
If you do think so, I can make that a condition that the beekeeper does it.
I asked my bro where he keeps his bees already and he said "he doesn't have
any yet - he's been on a beekeeping course and wants to keep bees."

I am up for encouraging that. He only lives a few houses away from the
paddock. When I wanted to keep goats, I had to find someone prepared to
rent me land to do it and so I will try and help him to keep bees, if
that's what he wants. The rent will be a few jars of honey a year and
occasional help with watering my veggies in a dry spell since he will be
there anyway.

However, I have not met him yet. I intend to discuss his plans this
weekend, first on the phone and then a visit. I am sure we will come to a
mutually acceptable situation.
It will not include him growing veggies there for now.

When one of the allotment holders on our site wanted to keep bees they had
to write to every plot holder and ask if they minded and if they were
allergic to the stings. They then insisted on the 6ft tall fence, fine
plastic mesh was used, so the bees flew straight up and over not near the
ground.
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

"Christina Websell" wrote

We haven't attacked the brambles yet. 50 yards x 15 yards at least. How
to do it organically as that's the way we want to go? I suspect slash
and
burn.

What we did was burn them down and clear up any bits that didn't. Then I
mowed and kept mowing for a season, they didn't come back the following
year.

These are serious brambles, will this work?


We had serious brambles too and it worked for us. Any that don't burn down
to the ground you need to cut off so you have a soil level to mow. As the
young shoots emerge just mow them again and again, we ended up with quite a
nice lawn too.

--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 02/04/2012 23:49, Christina Websell wrote:

We haven't attacked the brambles yet. 50 yards x 15 yards at least. How
to
do it organically as that's the way we want to go? I suspect slash and
burn.
Now if I still had goats, not a bramble will live as they love them.

Borrow a goat?

I don't want the responsibility of borrowing a goat that will live a mile
and half from my house.


Seriously though unless you are going for Organic(TM) certification to rob
the worried well with overpriced and overpackaged imperfect fruit and veg
at the local supermarket you might as well use glyphosate to clear the
brambles followed a few weeks later by fire.

It will be more environmentally friendly in the long run than all the fuel
you will use in the minidigger doing it "Organically".

Doesn't matter. We have decided, as a family that no chemicals will touch
this land.
Unfortunately a mini-digger was required to get it in any sort of order. No
way could any human have done it, unless you have the power to dig a 1/3
acre full of brambles and nettles by yourself with a spade. We just had to
accept the mini-digger using fuel. Sorry about that.

"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...
"Christina Websell" wrote

We haven't attacked the brambles yet. 50 yards x 15 yards at least.
How
to do it organically as that's the way we want to go? I suspect slash
and
burn.

What we did was burn them down and clear up any bits that didn't. Then I
mowed and kept mowing for a season, they didn't come back the following
year.

These are serious brambles, will this work?


We had serious brambles too and it worked for us. Any that don't burn down
to the ground you need to cut off so you have a soil level to mow. As the
young shoots emerge just mow them again and again, we ended up with quite
a nice lawn too.


I might have to buy a petrol mower to do this.

"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...
"Christina Websell" wrote ...


"Bob Hobden" wrote

You may be interested that the full price of allotments in Runnymede BC
is £13.80 per sq Rod (Pole or Perch), effectively 5 metres by 5 metres.
And that is cheaper because we pay by DD. We also get a 50% reduction
for being old farts so for us it's "just" £6.75 a sq Rod.
At full price a standard 10 sq Rod allotment would be £138.00 per annum.
Water is available although no hoses are ever allowed, they don't do
much else for us except inspect every 3 months and write if they see an
uncultivated plot.
Those prices may change your mind about the financial consequences of
renting out bits although you may need parking/fencing/ and strict
inspections to throw off any useless gardeners.

I'm more concerned about having to pay for liability insurance than making
money from it, tbh. There is no parking, it is landlocked. It's very
well fenced now, only a bit had come down and it is now repaired with 6 ft
chainlink along the public footpath.


BTW the bees will need a 6ft high fence around the hives so they fly up
and away not into people.

The place I have in mind on the ground for the hives isn't near people, it
is at the bottom of everyone's garden who lives around it and at the
furthest point from the public footpath. Do you think that would still
be necessary, the nearby fences are quite high?
If you do think so, I can make that a condition that the beekeeper does
it. I asked my bro where he keeps his bees already and he said "he doesn't
have any yet - he's been on a beekeeping course and wants to keep bees."

I am up for encouraging that. He only lives a few houses away from the
paddock. When I wanted to keep goats, I had to find someone prepared to
rent me land to do it and so I will try and help him to keep bees, if
that's what he wants. The rent will be a few jars of honey a year and
occasional help with watering my veggies in a dry spell since he will be
there anyway.

However, I have not met him yet. I intend to discuss his plans this
weekend, first on the phone and then a visit. I am sure we will come to a
mutually acceptable situation.
It will not include him growing veggies there for now.

When one of the allotment holders on our site wanted to keep bees they had
to write to every plot holder and ask if they minded and if they were
allergic to the stings. They then insisted on the 6ft tall fence, fine
plastic mesh was used, so the bees flew straight up and over not near the
ground.

Probably nothing for me to worry about then.