In article ,
says...

This country has been unable to feed itself since the repeal of the
Corn Laws in 1846. 40% of this country's land is "upland", unable to
grow cereals.

Are you proposing the uplands could produce a food crop from alder?
Alder is a lowland tree, it typically grows along waterways and in
river valleys.

Janet

I do so wish that Michael will not be encouraged too much in his search for
alders that will feed the planet "if I can find one with big seeds"

I have found alder seeds which are close to the size of rice grains. I
am now looking for bigger. It will be a starch belly-filler like
wheat, potatoes or rice.

Or maybe I am totally wrong and that's the way to go.

This country has been unable to feed itself since the repeal of the
Corn Laws in 1846. 40% of this country's land is "upland", unable to
grow cereals.

People help me because they have the knowledge and want to give it to
somebody who needs it. What possible harm do you think I might do? If
it doesn't work out (and it is a difficult project) then there is no
outcome, but if it does work out, what harm?

"Treason never does prosper, why what's the reason.
If treason does prosper, none dare call it treason."



Nobody backs a lost cause.

Michael Bell

You say seed the size of rice grains, but not the same weight I'm sure.
BUT
The question I have is
How do you expect the seed to be picked/gathered.
It's fiddly work collecting a quantity of Hazel nuts and they are much
heavier than alder seed.

On 05/06/2013 10:02, wrote:
In article ,
Michael Bell wrote:
In message
"Christina Websell"
wrote:

I do so wish that Michael will not be encouraged too much in his search for
alders that will feed the planet "if I can find one with big seeds"

I have found alder seeds which are close to the size of rice grains. I
am now looking for bigger. It will be a starch belly-filler like
wheat, potatoes or rice.

I find people's attitude to you bizarre. While you may be a nutter,
and this project doomed to failure, it is not obviously a stupid
idea - and history is full of nutters pursuing hopeless projects
who later became recognised as great innovators!

Why the hell not? Bully for you. And the best of British!

Or maybe I am totally wrong and that's the way to go.

This country has been unable to feed itself since the repeal of the
Corn Laws in 1846. 40% of this country's land is "upland", unable to
grow cereals.

Yes. And, to Janet, most upland in the UK is fairly low-lying
(alder reaches 1600 feet), and includes a lot of damp areas.

Even just as a stock-feed, something that would grow in those
conditions has potential as winter feed for grazing animals, with
negligible transport costs. If it were not for the supermarkets
and their poodlefaking politicians, plus the obscene collaboration
between the bureaucrats and the nastier end of the food-processing
industry (think the creation of CJD and elimination of all small
abbatoirs), the UK could produce a lot more of its own meat.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

+1

In article ,
Michael Bell wrote:
In message
"Christina Websell"
wrote:

I do so wish that Michael will not be encouraged too much in his search for
alders that will feed the planet "if I can find one with big seeds"

I have found alder seeds which are close to the size of rice grains. I
am now looking for bigger. It will be a starch belly-filler like
wheat, potatoes or rice.

I find people's attitude to you bizarre. While you may be a nutter,
and this project doomed to failure, it is not obviously a stupid
idea - and history is full of nutters pursuing hopeless projects
who later became recognised as great innovators!

Why the hell not? Bully for you. And the best of British!

Or maybe I am totally wrong and that's the way to go.

This country has been unable to feed itself since the repeal of the
Corn Laws in 1846. 40% of this country's land is "upland", unable to
grow cereals.

Yes. And, to Janet, most upland in the UK is fairly low-lying
(alder reaches 1600 feet), and includes a lot of damp areas.

Even just as a stock-feed, something that would grow in those
conditions has potential as winter feed for grazing animals, with
negligible transport costs. If it were not for the supermarkets
and their poodlefaking politicians, plus the obscene collaboration
between the bureaucrats and the nastier end of the food-processing
industry (think the creation of CJD and elimination of all small
abbatoirs), the UK could produce a lot more of its own meat.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In message
stuart noble wrote:

On 05/06/2013 10:02, wrote:
In article ,
Michael Bell wrote:
In message
"Christina Websell"
wrote:

I do so wish that Michael will not be encouraged too much in his
search for
alders that will feed the planet "if I can find one with big seeds"

I have found alder seeds which are close to the size of rice grains. I
am now looking for bigger. It will be a starch belly-filler like
wheat, potatoes or rice.

I find people's attitude to you bizarre. While you may be a nutter,
and this project doomed to failure, it is not obviously a stupid
idea - and history is full of nutters pursuing hopeless projects
who later became recognised as great innovators!

Why the hell not? Bully for you. And the best of British!

Or maybe I am totally wrong and that's the way to go.

This country has been unable to feed itself since the repeal of the
Corn Laws in 1846. 40% of this country's land is "upland", unable to
grow cereals.

Yes. And, to Janet, most upland in the UK is fairly low-lying
(alder reaches 1600 feet), and includes a lot of damp areas.

Even just as a stock-feed, something that would grow in those
conditions has potential as winter feed for grazing animals, with
negligible transport costs. If it were not for the supermarkets
and their poodlefaking politicians, plus the obscene collaboration
between the bureaucrats and the nastier end of the food-processing
industry (think the creation of CJD and elimination of all small
abbatoirs), the UK could produce a lot more of its own meat.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

+1

Nick

Thank you for your support.

Michael Bell

--

In message
David Hill wrote:


I do so wish that Michael will not be encouraged too much in his
search for
alders that will feed the planet "if I can find one with big seeds"

I have found alder seeds which are close to the size of rice grains. I
am now looking for bigger. It will be a starch belly-filler like
wheat, potatoes or rice.

Or maybe I am totally wrong and that's the way to go.

This country has been unable to feed itself since the repeal of the
Corn Laws in 1846. 40% of this country's land is "upland", unable to
grow cereals.

People help me because they have the knowledge and want to give it to
somebody who needs it. What possible harm do you think I might do? If
it doesn't work out (and it is a difficult project) then there is no
outcome, but if it does work out, what harm?

"Treason never does prosper, why what's the reason.
If treason does prosper, none dare call it treason."



Nobody backs a lost cause.

Michael Bell

You say seed the size of rice grains, but not the same weight I'm sure.

Why on earth not? They are made of the same kind of stuff as wheat,
rice..etc. They must have roughly the same specific gravity.

BUT
The question I have is
How do you expect the seed to be picked/gathered.
It's fiddly work collecting a quantity of Hazel nuts and they are much
heavier than alder seed.

The cones are to be picked by an upward-moving mechanised rake,
motored along the rows. A garden rake is quite effective. The cones
differ widely in ease of pulling off, obviously I select for easier.
Good branch layout is also important, there is wide natural variation,
I am selecting for about 45° upslope, though this might not be
critical. The cones will then be threshed. The empty cones will be
very suitable as fuel. All crops produce by-products, think of wheat
and straw.

I worked out that this was possible before starting this project.

Michael Bell


--

There are lots of trees that won't grow from cuttings, which is one reason all that grafting goes on. Even grafting doesn't work in all species. A professional nurseryman showed me a beautiful tiny dwarfed eucalyptus that he had accidentally created. It was probably a triploid cross and therefore wouldn't set useful seed. When I last spoke to him, he had been trying for 4 years to find a way of propagating it, including employing labs to try all the latest techniques, with no success at all.

In message
Michael Bell wrote:

In message
David Hill wrote:

On 26/05/2013 08:47, Emery Davis wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2013 07:26:28 +0100, Michael Bell wrote:

I know what you are saying, but setting that aside, there really ought
to be a way of taking cutttings from trees of any kind and that is the
question I asked.

Not all trees can be grown from cuttings. For many Japanese maple
cultivars, and several maple species, it is virtually impossible. Some
work at a low percentage rate, then are liable to fail suddenly. Others
are viable at a commercial scale, and there are now a few nurseries
propagating them in this manner, even though some are leery of their long
term health.

Assuming you are attempting to propagate A. glutinosa, here is what Dirr
and Heuser have to say in "The Reference Manual of Woody Plant
Propagation."

"CUTTINGS: Cuttings (no time given), wound, 8000 ppm IBA-talc, rooted
64%. Without treatment there was no rooting. In general, this species is
produced from seed, however, two notable cutleaf selections, 'Imperialis'
and 'Laciniata', can be rooted successfully. Mid-July cuttings of
'Imperialis' rooted 34% in 7 weeks when treated with 5000 ppm 2,4,5-TP
and 58% with 5000 ppm 2,4,5-TP plus Rootone. Late June 'Laciniata'
cuttings rooted 34% in 7 weeks with a wound and 8000 ppm IBA-talc plus
thiram, mist. Another report noted 'Imperialis' rooted easily from
softwoods when treated with 3000 ppm IBA-talc."

Other information is offered on grafting and tissue culture, several Alnus
species are covered.

Dirr and Heuser is a standard horticultural reference that should be
available at any decent university library, and many public libraries.
May I suggest that use of the literature would be a good idea given how
long your experiments are likely to run.

Good luck,

-E

I've now got this book and a mist propagator and "Strike" (Bayer),
which I suppose is the European standard rooting powder, and a mist
propagator, and I am ready to go, but what exactly does "wound" mean?


Might it mean a single scratch down one side of the stem, or simply
the stem cut at a shallow angle, so it has a lot of exposed surface?

Michael Bell



--

"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk...
In message
Michael Bell wrote:

In message
David Hill wrote:

On 26/05/2013 08:47, Emery Davis wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2013 07:26:28 +0100, Michael Bell wrote:

I know what you are saying, but setting that aside, there really ought
to be a way of taking cutttings from trees of any kind and that is the
question I asked.

Not all trees can be grown from cuttings. For many Japanese maple
cultivars, and several maple species, it is virtually impossible. Some
work at a low percentage rate, then are liable to fail suddenly.
Others
are viable at a commercial scale, and there are now a few nurseries
propagating them in this manner, even though some are leery of their
long
term health.

Assuming you are attempting to propagate A. glutinosa, here is what
Dirr
and Heuser have to say in "The Reference Manual of Woody Plant
Propagation."

"CUTTINGS: Cuttings (no time given), wound, 8000 ppm IBA-talc, rooted
64%. Without treatment there was no rooting. In general, this species
is
produced from seed, however, two notable cutleaf selections,
'Imperialis'
and 'Laciniata', can be rooted successfully. Mid-July cuttings of
'Imperialis' rooted 34% in 7 weeks when treated with 5000 ppm 2,4,5-TP
and 58% with 5000 ppm 2,4,5-TP plus Rootone. Late June 'Laciniata'
cuttings rooted 34% in 7 weeks with a wound and 8000 ppm IBA-talc plus
thiram, mist. Another report noted 'Imperialis' rooted easily from
softwoods when treated with 3000 ppm IBA-talc."

Other information is offered on grafting and tissue culture, several
Alnus
species are covered.

Dirr and Heuser is a standard horticultural reference that should be
available at any decent university library, and many public libraries.
May I suggest that use of the literature would be a good idea given how
long your experiments are likely to run.

Good luck,

-E

I've now got this book and a mist propagator and "Strike" (Bayer),
which I suppose is the European standard rooting powder, and a mist
propagator, and I am ready to go, but what exactly does "wound" mean?


Might it mean a single scratch down one side of the stem, or simply
the stem cut at a shallow angle, so it has a lot of exposed surface?

Michael Bell


It means removing a narrow sliver down just one side of the cutting, remove
the outer layer of bark but not going right through, its not an exact
science and some experimentation is usually required to find what works
best, same for mist units the settings that work best vary and also change
during the year.

One thing you will find of huge benefit is to shade the mist unit with thin
white polythene to prevent sun scorch

Try doing some other easy subjects as well as your Alders, that way you will
know if the mist unit settings are ok but the timing for the Alder cuttings
needs adjusting, or if the easy stuff fails the settings are wrong!


--
Charlie, Gardening in Cornwall
Holders of National Collections of Clematis viticella
and Lapageria rosea cvs
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk

In message
"Charlie Pridham" wrote:


"Michael Bell" wrote in message
. uk...
In message
Michael Bell wrote:

In message
David Hill wrote:

On 26/05/2013 08:47, Emery Davis wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2013 07:26:28 +0100, Michael Bell wrote:

I know what you are saying, but setting that aside, there really ought
to be a way of taking cutttings from trees of any kind and that is the
question I asked.

Not all trees can be grown from cuttings. For many Japanese maple
cultivars, and several maple species, it is virtually impossible. Some
work at a low percentage rate, then are liable to fail suddenly.
Others
are viable at a commercial scale, and there are now a few nurseries
propagating them in this manner, even though some are leery of their
long
term health.

Assuming you are attempting to propagate A. glutinosa, here is what
Dirr
and Heuser have to say in "The Reference Manual of Woody Plant
Propagation."

"CUTTINGS: Cuttings (no time given), wound, 8000 ppm IBA-talc, rooted
64%. Without treatment there was no rooting. In general, this species
is
produced from seed, however, two notable cutleaf selections,
'Imperialis'
and 'Laciniata', can be rooted successfully. Mid-July cuttings of
'Imperialis' rooted 34% in 7 weeks when treated with 5000 ppm 2,4,5-TP
and 58% with 5000 ppm 2,4,5-TP plus Rootone. Late June 'Laciniata'
cuttings rooted 34% in 7 weeks with a wound and 8000 ppm IBA-talc plus
thiram, mist. Another report noted 'Imperialis' rooted easily from
softwoods when treated with 3000 ppm IBA-talc."

Other information is offered on grafting and tissue culture, several
Alnus
species are covered.

Dirr and Heuser is a standard horticultural reference that should be
available at any decent university library, and many public libraries.
May I suggest that use of the literature would be a good idea given how
long your experiments are likely to run.

Good luck,

-E

I've now got this book and a mist propagator and "Strike" (Bayer),
which I suppose is the European standard rooting powder, and a mist
propagator, and I am ready to go, but what exactly does "wound" mean?


Might it mean a single scratch down one side of the stem, or simply
the stem cut at a shallow angle, so it has a lot of exposed surface?

Michael Bell


It means removing a narrow sliver down just one side of the cutting, remove
the outer layer of bark but not going right through, its not an exact
science and some experimentation is usually required to find what works
best, same for mist units the settings that work best vary and also change
during the year.

One thing you will find of huge benefit is to shade the mist unit with thin
white polythene to prevent sun scorch

Try doing some other easy subjects as well as your Alders, that way you will
know if the mist unit settings are ok but the timing for the Alder cuttings
needs adjusting, or if the easy stuff fails the settings are wrong!

My mist propagotion unit is in shade on the north side of my house
(because of lack of space on any other side) so scorch is not a
problem. I have the settings on maximum wetness, and the first
cuttings went in on Friday, and they are still alive. Lacking advice
on what "wounded" meant I simply dipped the ends into rooting powder.
I wait to see what happens!

Michael Bell


--

It means removing a narrow sliver down just one side of the cutting, remove
the outer layer of bark but not going right through, its not an exact
science and some experimentation is usually required to find what works
best, same for mist units the settings that work best vary and also change
during the year.

One thing you will find of huge benefit is to shade the mist unit with thin
white polythene to prevent sun scorch

Try doing some other easy subjects as well as your Alders, that way you will
know if the mist unit settings are ok but the timing for the Alder cuttings
needs adjusting, or if the easy stuff fails the settings are wrong!

My mist propagotion unit is in shade on the north side of my house
(because of lack of space on any other side) so scorch is not a
problem. I have the settings on maximum wetness, and the first
cuttings went in on Friday, and they are still alive. Lacking advice
on what "wounded" meant I simply dipped the ends into rooting powder.
I wait to see what happens!

Michael Bell


Do you actually bother reading the replies?
you say "Lacking advice on what "wounded" meant"
Look at the first 2 lines of this post.
What don't you understand?

On 08/07/2013 14:09, David Hill wrote:

It means removing a narrow sliver down just one side of the cutting, remove
the outer layer of bark but not going right through, its not an exact
science and some experimentation is usually required to find what works
best, same for mist units the settings that work best vary and also change
during the year.

One thing you will find of huge benefit is to shade the mist unit with thin
white polythene to prevent sun scorch

Try doing some other easy subjects as well as your Alders, that way you will
know if the mist unit settings are ok but the timing for the Alder cuttings
needs adjusting, or if the easy stuff fails the settings are wrong!

My mist propagotion unit is in shade on the north side of my house
(because of lack of space on any other side) so scorch is not a
problem. I have the settings on maximum wetness, and the first
cuttings went in on Friday, and they are still alive. Lacking advice
on what "wounded" meant I simply dipped the ends into rooting powder.
I wait to see what happens!

Michael Bell


Do you actually bother reading the replies?
you say "Lacking advice on what "wounded" meant"
Look at the first 2 lines of this post.
What don't you understand?

I think you owe the OP an apology. He posted on Saturday (6th) asking
what "wounded" meant. Charlie replied on Sunday. The OP replied early
today with "...and the first cuttings went in on Friday, and they are
still alive. Lacking advice on what "wounded" meant, I simply dipped the
ends into rooting powder". So he had already made his first cuttings on
Friday, before he asked what "wounded" meant.

--

Jeff

Besides which, his post re rooting powder was at 8.14 and Charlie's reply on wounding wasn't posted until 8.32.

On 08/07/2013 18:58, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 08/07/2013 14:09, David Hill wrote:

It means removing a narrow sliver down just one side of the cutting,
remove
the outer layer of bark but not going right through, its not an exact
science and some experimentation is usually required to find what works
best, same for mist units the settings that work best vary and also
change
during the year.

One thing you will find of huge benefit is to shade the mist unit
with thin
white polythene to prevent sun scorch

Try doing some other easy subjects as well as your Alders, that way
you will
know if the mist unit settings are ok but the timing for the Alder
cuttings
needs adjusting, or if the easy stuff fails the settings are wrong!

My mist propagotion unit is in shade on the north side of my house
(because of lack of space on any other side) so scorch is not a
problem. I have the settings on maximum wetness, and the first
cuttings went in on Friday, and they are still alive. Lacking advice
on what "wounded" meant I simply dipped the ends into rooting powder.
I wait to see what happens!

Michael Bell


Do you actually bother reading the replies?
you say "Lacking advice on what "wounded" meant"
Look at the first 2 lines of this post.
What don't you understand?

I think you owe the OP an apology. He posted on Saturday (6th) asking
what "wounded" meant. Charlie replied on Sunday. The OP replied early
today with "...and the first cuttings went in on Friday, and they are
still alive. Lacking advice on what "wounded" meant, I simply dipped the
ends into rooting powder". So he had already made his first cuttings on
Friday, before he asked what "wounded" meant.


Had the OP acknowledged Charlies reply, it would have been one thing but
he posted a day after he had done the cuttings, so he doesn't seem that
bothered about getting advice, remember that this has been going on now
for more than 2 years.

David Hill wrote:

Had the OP acknowledged Charlies reply, it would have been one thing but
he posted a day after he had done the cuttings, so he doesn't seem that
bothered about getting advice, remember that this has been going on now
for more than 2 years.

Judging by his demeanour elsewhere, the OP doesn't provide much
evidence of allowing his "interesting" ideas to be influenced by
what others say.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.