In article ,
Janet wrote:

I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).

I may have missed mention of botulism; surely everybody knows that non-acid
foods need the temperature of a pressure canner to be sure?

Nope, nobody in the UK knows that. Here, Kilner jars of fruit/veg are
just filled, closed and cooked in a boiling water pan without pressure.

That is wrong.

It's the way my family did it for years. Endless bottled plums were a
winter feature of childhood.

You do seem to have trouble with the qualification "non-acid",
don't you? :-) Plums most definitely do NOT count! The only
fruit commonly eaten in the UK that do that I can think of are
bananas and avocados. Even ripe strawberries have a fair amount
of acid.

If you look at most older books, you will see that
the recommendation is exactly as Gary said. Also, some people living
in the UK have previously lived at moderate altitudes, which makes
the requirement more important.

why? I don't follow why where they previously lived, makes any
difference later?

Because the boiling point is lower at altitude.

What's more, when we've filled jars with home made jam and put the
lid on, that's it done; we don't boil them at all.

You make entirely non-acid jam? Please post the recipe for our
amusement (if not delectation) :-)

This was a mere poke at US jam makers, who having made jam and
jarred it, then pressure can it.

Well, yes, but Gary is not a USA marketdroid.

The recommendation always was slightly overstated, because the main
danger comes from high-protein foods. I would very, VERY strongly
advise people not to store such things in that way without the
extra pressure or without checking the seal when using them.

You check the seal the day after sealing the jars when they are cold;
if it hasn't taken you either use the contents or reseal and boil again.
And you always, always test the airtight vaccuum seal before opening and
using the jar to use.

The danger with high-protein, non-acid foods, such as fish and meat
is that mere boiling point is not enough to destroy Clostridium
botulinum spores. If one then germinates, the toxin will build
up, and the sealed food can then be lethal. Yes, it happens.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
says...

In article ,
Janet wrote:

I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).

I may have missed mention of botulism; surely everybody knows that non-acid
foods need the temperature of a pressure canner to be sure?

Nope, nobody in the UK knows that. Here, Kilner jars of fruit/veg are
just filled, closed and cooked in a boiling water pan without pressure.

That is wrong.

It's the way my family did it for years. Endless bottled plums were a
winter feature of childhood.

You do seem to have trouble with the qualification "non-acid",
don't you? :-) Plums most definitely do NOT count! The only
fruit commonly eaten in the UK that do that I can think of are
bananas and avocados. Even ripe strawberries have a fair amount
of acid.

If you look at most older books, you will see that
the recommendation is exactly as Gary said. Also, some people living
in the UK have previously lived at moderate altitudes, which makes
the requirement more important.

why? I don't follow why where they previously lived, makes any
difference later?

Because the boiling point is lower at altitude.

You seem to have a problem with the term "previously" :-=)
You're hardly living at altitude now, nor is Baz, the person about to
deploy Kilner jars in the English flatlands.

Janet.

In article ,
Janet wrote:

I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).

I may have missed mention of botulism; surely everybody knows that non-acid
foods need the temperature of a pressure canner to be sure?

Nope, nobody in the UK knows that. Here, Kilner jars of fruit/veg are
just filled, closed and cooked in a boiling water pan without pressure.

That is wrong.

It's the way my family did it for years. Endless bottled plums were a
winter feature of childhood.

You do seem to have trouble with the qualification "non-acid",
don't you? :-) Plums most definitely do NOT count! The only
fruit commonly eaten in the UK that do that I can think of are
bananas and avocados. Even ripe strawberries have a fair amount
of acid.

If you look at most older books, you will see that
the recommendation is exactly as Gary said. Also, some people living
in the UK have previously lived at moderate altitudes, which makes
the requirement more important.

why? I don't follow why where they previously lived, makes any
difference later?

Because the boiling point is lower at altitude.

You seem to have a problem with the term "previously" :-=)
You're hardly living at altitude now, nor is Baz, the person about to
deploy Kilner jars in the English flatlands.

Not at all. I said what I meant and I meant what I said. If you
choose to misinterpret it, that's your problem. Quite a lot of
people who used to live where it was essential continued to do
it after returning to the UK. Your statement that nobody in
the UK knows that and that nobody does that (which is what I
was addressing) was and is just plain wrong.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
Malcolm wrote:


The danger with high-protein, non-acid foods, such as fish and meat
is that mere boiling point is not enough to destroy Clostridium
botulinum spores. If one then germinates, the toxin will build
up, and the sealed food can then be lethal. Yes, it happens.

This is scaremongering, based on nothing at all, it would seem.

According to the NHS website, there were just 33 recorded cases of
food-borne botulism in England and Wales in the 30 years from 1980 and
2010, and 26 of those were linked to a single outbreak in 1989 caused by
contaminated hazelnut yoghurt.

Sigh. And just how many people in the UK bottle meat, fish and
other such high-protein, non-acid foods in Kilner jars? Almost
everyone has better sense than to do that, because there are much
better ways.

Bottling low-protein, acid foods such as almost all fruit is and
never has been a problem and accounts for the VAST majority of
such bottling in the UK. The remainder is almost always low-protein,
non-acid foods such as vegetables.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Malcolm" wrote in message ...


In article , Nick Maclaren
writes
In article ,
Malcolm wrote:


The danger with high-protein, non-acid foods, such as fish and meat
is that mere boiling point is not enough to destroy Clostridium
botulinum spores. If one then germinates, the toxin will build
up, and the sealed food can then be lethal. Yes, it happens.

This is scaremongering, based on nothing at all, it would seem.

According to the NHS website, there were just 33 recorded cases of
food-borne botulism in England and Wales in the 30 years from 1980 and
2010, and 26 of those were linked to a single outbreak in 1989 caused by
contaminated hazelnut yoghurt.

Sigh. And just how many people in the UK bottle meat, fish and
other such high-protein, non-acid foods in Kilner jars? Almost
everyone has better sense than to do that, because there are much
better ways.

Clearly not, judging by this thread. I also note the absence of any
evidence to back up your blatant scaremongering about botulism,
including "it happens", which I note you have snipped, presumably so you
can avoid having to respond to my request to demonstrate that it
referred to Kilner jars.

Bottling low-protein, acid foods such as almost all fruit is and
never has been a problem and accounts for the VAST majority of
such bottling in the UK. The remainder is almost always low-protein,
non-acid foods such as vegetables.

So why are you wittering on about virtually non-existent botulism? Are
you deliberately trying to scare people for the hell of it? Or was it
based on ignorance of the facts about botulism in the UK?

--
Malcolm

In article ,
Malcolm wrote:

The danger with high-protein, non-acid foods, such as fish and meat
is that mere boiling point is not enough to destroy Clostridium
botulinum spores. If one then germinates, the toxin will build
up, and the sealed food can then be lethal. Yes, it happens.

This is scaremongering, based on nothing at all, it would seem.

According to the NHS website, there were just 33 recorded cases of
food-borne botulism in England and Wales in the 30 years from 1980 and
2010, and 26 of those were linked to a single outbreak in 1989 caused by
contaminated hazelnut yoghurt.

Sigh. And just how many people in the UK bottle meat, fish and
other such high-protein, non-acid foods in Kilner jars? Almost
everyone has better sense than to do that, because there are much
better ways.

Clearly not, judging by this thread. I also note the absence of any
evidence to back up your blatant scaremongering about botulism,
including "it happens", which I note you have snipped, presumably so you
can avoid having to respond to my request to demonstrate that it
referred to Kilner jars.

You really do seem to be being deliberately foolish. I snipped that
paragraph because it was not relevant. I never said that it happens
in the UK, AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS that nobody or almost nobody
bottles the sort of foods where it is likely. It is simply not a
traditional UK mode for the preservation of such foods. We almost
always pickle, cure or otherwise treat such foods, either instead or
as well, and that prevents the issue. But it IS used in some other
countries.

It might have escaped you, but there are many serious risks that do
not cause trouble because people simply avoid the prerequites for
them. To claim that proves they aren't risks when the prerequisites
are present is arrant stupidity, at best. There aren't any people
killed by the UK's populations of crocodiles, for example, but that
doesn't mean that they are safe to swim with.

What I was doing was warning people against bottling HIGH-PROTEIN,
NON-ACID FOODS SUCH AS MEAT AND FISH using only unpressurised boiling
point. If you bother to look up the real scientific and medical
references, you will see why that is.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
says...

What I was doing was warning people against bottling HIGH-PROTEIN,
NON-ACID FOODS SUCH AS MEAT AND FISH using only unpressurised boiling
point.

The rest of us, were discussing Baz's plan to bottle garden produce.
Not meat or fish.

Janet

In article ,
Malcolm wrote:

The danger with high-protein, non-acid foods, such as fish and meat
is that mere boiling point is not enough to destroy Clostridium
botulinum spores. If one then germinates, the toxin will build
up, and the sealed food can then be lethal. Yes, it happens.

This is scaremongering, based on nothing at all, it would seem.

According to the NHS website, there were just 33 recorded cases of
food-borne botulism in England and Wales in the 30 years from 1980 and
2010, and 26 of those were linked to a single outbreak in 1989 caused by
contaminated hazelnut yoghurt.

Sigh. And just how many people in the UK bottle meat, fish and
other such high-protein, non-acid foods in Kilner jars? Almost
everyone has better sense than to do that, because there are much
better ways.

Clearly not, judging by this thread. I also note the absence of any
evidence to back up your blatant scaremongering about botulism,
including "it happens", which I note you have snipped, presumably so you
can avoid having to respond to my request to demonstrate that it
referred to Kilner jars.

You really do seem to be being deliberately foolish. I snipped that
paragraph because it was not relevant. I never said that it happens
in the UK,

Oh, what an enormous wriggle we see before us. You most certainly did
not say that it didn't happen in the UK. Go back and read the context of
that remark.

I certainly agree that I did not say that it doesn't happen here.
My paragraph stated above says what I meant to say, and is correct.
Warning people that bottling fruit is safe, but higher temperatures
are needed for some other foods is not scaremongering. Some people
(and I suspect that Baz may be one) have enough nous to be interested
in pushing the boundaries.

Either you desperately need a remedial course in English comprehension
or you are simply trolling. Or both, I suppose.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Malcolm wrote:

The danger with high-protein, non-acid foods, such as fish and meat
is that mere boiling point is not enough to destroy Clostridium
botulinum spores. If one then germinates, the toxin will build
up, and the sealed food can then be lethal. Yes, it happens.

This is scaremongering, based on nothing at all, it would seem.

According to the NHS website, there were just 33 recorded cases of
food-borne botulism in England and Wales in the 30 years from 1980 and
2010, and 26 of those were linked to a single outbreak in 1989 caused
by
contaminated hazelnut yoghurt.

Sigh. And just how many people in the UK bottle meat, fish and
other such high-protein, non-acid foods in Kilner jars? Almost
everyone has better sense than to do that, because there are much
better ways.

Clearly not, judging by this thread. I also note the absence of any
evidence to back up your blatant scaremongering about botulism,
including "it happens", which I note you have snipped, presumably so you
can avoid having to respond to my request to demonstrate that it
referred to Kilner jars.

You really do seem to be being deliberately foolish. I snipped that
paragraph because it was not relevant. I never said that it happens
in the UK,

Oh, what an enormous wriggle we see before us. You most certainly did
not say that it didn't happen in the UK. Go back and read the context of
that remark.

I certainly agree that I did not say that it doesn't happen here.
My paragraph stated above says what I meant to say, and is correct.
Warning people that bottling fruit is safe, but higher temperatures
are needed for some other foods is not scaremongering. Some people
(and I suspect that Baz may be one) have enough nous to be interested
in pushing the boundaries.

Either you desperately need a remedial course in English comprehension
or you are simply trolling. Or both, I suppose.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.


wow, this is really exciting, an argument between Nick & Malcolm, who both
know they know best!!