A seed vendor known to us all is selling seed "for" what they're calling
"Acer palmatum septemlobus 'Osakazuki'". The page informs us that the
tree has won the RHS award of merit, and describes it. (The price BTW is
£2.99 for 12 seeds!!!)

Now, aside from the incorrect name, it's fair to assume these are seeds
from the named cultivar A. palmatum 'Osakazuki', which can only be
propagated clonally. Seeds do not come true to type.

I grow this tree and have grown on many seedlings not one of which has
more than a passing resemblance to the parent. Nice plants, but
certainly not as described.

Is this is a straight rip off of the consumer? Surely this vendor should
know better...

-E

--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

"Emery Davis" wrote in message
...
A seed vendor known to us all is selling seed "for" what they're calling
"Acer palmatum septemlobus 'Osakazuki'". The page informs us that the
tree has won the RHS award of merit, and describes it. (The price BTW is
£2.99 for 12 seeds!!!)

Now, aside from the incorrect name, it's fair to assume these are seeds
from the named cultivar A. palmatum 'Osakazuki', which can only be
propagated clonally. Seeds do not come true to type.

I grow this tree and have grown on many seedlings not one of which has
more than a passing resemblance to the parent. Nice plants, but
certainly not as described.

Is this is a straight rip off of the consumer? Surely this vendor should
know better...


I would think there is a case for at least hinting to the vendor that the
trades descriptions act may be being breached, and that trading standards
could be interested in what they're doing. Are you sure there isn't
something in the dreaded small print about them not breeding true?

Steve

On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 19:38:42 +0000, shazzbat wrote:

"Emery Davis" wrote in message
...

Is this is a straight rip off of the consumer? Surely this vendor
should know better...


I would think there is a case for at least hinting to the vendor that
the trades descriptions act may be being breached, and that trading
standards could be interested in what they're doing. Are you sure there
isn't something in the dreaded small print about them not breeding true?


There isn't on the page, although there may be hidden somewhere else on
the site. But even so, they're advertising the award of garden merit for
something that most definitely didn't win it!

Ugh, there's me hypertension up again...

-E


--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 19:38:42 +0000, shazzbat wrote:

"Emery Davis" wrote in message
...

Is this is a straight rip off of the consumer? Surely this vendor
should know better...


I would think there is a case for at least hinting to the vendor that
the trades descriptions act may be being breached, and that trading
standards could be interested in what they're doing. Are you sure there
isn't something in the dreaded small print about them not breeding true?


There isn't on the page, although there may be hidden somewhere else on
the site. But even so, they're advertising the award of garden merit for
something that most definitely didn't win it!


? The RHS website shows it has won an AGM

http://apps.rhs.org.uk/plantselector/plant?plantid=29

Janet

On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 23:37:27 +0000, Janet wrote:

There isn't on the page, although there may be hidden somewhere else on
the site. But even so, they're advertising the award of garden merit
for something that most definitely didn't win it!


? The RHS website shows it has won an AGM

http://apps.rhs.org.uk/plantselector/plant?plantid=29

Janet

Yes, I know 'Osakasuki' won it, but its offspring did not. Nor will they
much resemble the plant that won the AGM.

The reason to sell seed from this particular cultivar (as opposed to
another) is that they germinate well (as well as regular A. palmatum ssp
amoenum seed from which the cultivar was selected); less customer
complaints. Of course it will take several years for the customer to
realise that they didn't get what was advertised.

-E



--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 23:37:27 +0000, Janet wrote:

There isn't on the page, although there may be hidden somewhere else on
the site. But even so, they're advertising the award of garden merit
for something that most definitely didn't win it!


? The RHS website shows it has won an AGM

http://apps.rhs.org.uk/plantselector/plant?plantid=29

Janet

Yes, I know 'Osakasuki' won it,

which is what the advert said. So that part was not misleading.

but its offspring did not. Nor will they
much resemble the plant that won the AGM.

It's possible the seller is unaware of that, but you could correct
them; or if you think it's a deliberate deception and misuse of the RHS
award, inform the RHS.

Janet.

On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 10:57:47 +0000, Janet wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 23:37:27 +0000, Janet wrote:

There isn't on the page, although there may be hidden somewhere else
on the site. But even so, they're advertising the award of garden
merit for something that most definitely didn't win it!


? The RHS website shows it has won an AGM

http://apps.rhs.org.uk/plantselector/plant?plantid=29

Janet

Yes, I know 'Osakasuki' won it,

which is what the advert said. So that part was not misleading.


Here's what the advert says:

On the top is the parent name. To the right, below the price is the
following text:

"A glorious variety with soft green, usually seven-lobed leaves, often
with pink-tinged margins, that in autumn turn a blazing scarlet. An added
attraction are the scarlet keys that during the summer dangle beneath the
foliage. Hardy throughout the British Isles. Packet of 12 seeds."

Just below this is the AGM symbol.

You honestly don't find that this description and the AGM are intended to
be seen as applying to the seeds they're selling? Neither is accurate.


but its offspring did not. Nor will they
much resemble the plant that won the AGM.

It's possible the seller is unaware of that, but you could correct
them; or if you think it's a deliberate deception and misuse of the RHS
award, inform the RHS.

If the seller doesn't know that woody plant cultivars are propagated
clonally then they're in the wrong business. That would be astonishing
(but possible). Even wiki/cultivar has text to this effect: "In general,
asexually propagated cultivars grown from seeds produce highly variable
seedling plants, and should not be labelled with, or sold under, the
parent cultivar's name." (This comes from the RHS apparently, it's well
known in the nursery business).

So to answer the original question, Janet, you don't believe this is
unethical practice?

-E




--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

On 2014-01-09 12:19:06 +0000, Emery Davis said:

On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 10:57:47 +0000, Janet wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 23:37:27 +0000, Janet wrote:

There isn't on the page, although there may be hidden somewhere else
on the site. But even so, they're advertising the award of garden
merit for something that most definitely didn't win it!


? The RHS website shows it has won an AGM

http://apps.rhs.org.uk/plantselector/plant?plantid=29

Janet

Yes, I know 'Osakasuki' won it,

which is what the advert said. So that part was not misleading.


Here's what the advert says:

On the top is the parent name. To the right, below the price is the
following text:

"A glorious variety with soft green, usually seven-lobed leaves, often
with pink-tinged margins, that in autumn turn a blazing scarlet. An added
attraction are the scarlet keys that during the summer dangle beneath the
foliage. Hardy throughout the British Isles. Packet of 12 seeds."

Just below this is the AGM symbol.

You honestly don't find that this description and the AGM are intended to
be seen as applying to the seeds they're selling? Neither is accurate.


but its offspring did not. Nor will they
much resemble the plant that won the AGM.

It's possible the seller is unaware of that, but you could correct
them; or if you think it's a deliberate deception and misuse of the RHS
award, inform the RHS.

If the seller doesn't know that woody plant cultivars are propagated
clonally then they're in the wrong business. That would be astonishing
(but possible). Even wiki/cultivar has text to this effect: "In general,
asexually propagated cultivars grown from seeds produce highly variable
seedling plants, and should not be labelled with, or sold under, the
parent cultivar's name." (This comes from the RHS apparently, it's well
known in the nursery business).

So to answer the original question, Janet, you don't believe this is
unethical practice?

-E

I'd drop them a friendly email saying that you've been growing these
for years and wonder if they're aware that they don't come true from
seed. It may be genuine ignorance on their part, or it may be a
deliberate attempt to mislead but either way, they'll see that it's
been picked up. If you or a member of your family, have a Twitter or
Fb account you could also issue a warning there, without naming the
sellers, of course but just stating you've seen this ad and that the
plants cannot be grown from seed and turn out to be what is claimed for
them.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 10:57:47 +0000, Janet wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 08 Jan 2014 23:37:27 +0000, Janet wrote:

There isn't on the page, although there may be hidden somewhere else
on the site. But even so, they're advertising the award of garden
merit for something that most definitely didn't win it!


? The RHS website shows it has won an AGM

http://apps.rhs.org.uk/plantselector/plant?plantid=29

Janet

Yes, I know 'Osakasuki' won it,

which is what the advert said. So that part was not misleading.


Here's what the advert says:

On the top is the parent name. To the right, below the price is the
following text:

"A glorious variety with soft green, usually seven-lobed leaves, often
with pink-tinged margins, that in autumn turn a blazing scarlet. An added
attraction are the scarlet keys that during the summer dangle beneath the
foliage. Hardy throughout the British Isles. Packet of 12 seeds."

Just below this is the AGM symbol.

You honestly don't find that this description and the AGM are intended to
be seen as applying to the seeds they're selling?

No. As a gardener, I wouldn't mistake tree SEEDS to have an RHS AGM
award because of the potential for crossfertilisation.

Neither is accurate.

Writing something unintentionally ambiguous is easily done, as the
thread demonstrates.And it's not unheard of for online catalogues to
accidentally mismatch the name, photo, description.

but its offspring did not. Nor will they
much resemble the plant that won the AGM.

It's possible the seller is unaware of that, but you could correct
them; or if you think it's a deliberate deception and misuse of the RHS
award, inform the RHS.

If the seller doesn't know that woody plant cultivars are propagated
clonally then they're in the wrong business. That would be astonishing
(but possible).

Equally, there are plenty of gardeners well aware of that, who happily
seek out and grow the mystery seeds of a favourite in the hope one of
them just might turn out to be a brand new treasure.

Google shows plenty of other places offering the same seeds for sale.
Maybe all the takers, are people like you; well enough informed to know
that because the parent named cultivar has an RHS award, does not mean
its seeds will be true to the parent.

So to answer the original question, Janet, you don't believe this is
unethical practice?

No, I'd classify it as too obvious and trivial to be intentional
deception.

Janet.

On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 13:38:06 +0000, Janet wrote:

You honestly don't find that this description and the AGM are intended
to be seen as applying to the seeds they're selling?

No. As a gardener, I wouldn't mistake tree SEEDS to have an RHS AGM
award because of the potential for crossfertilisation.

I'm afraid you'd be mistaken then. On the very same site they sell seeds
for Acer campestre, which has also recieved the AGM. Campestre only
extremely rarely hybridises and seeds may be expected to be true to type.

So to answer the original question, Janet, you don't believe this is
unethical practice?

No, I'd classify it as too obvious and trivial to be intentional
deception.

OK, noted.

-E


--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 12:41:14 +0000, sacha wrote:

I'd drop them a friendly email saying that you've been growing these for
years and wonder if they're aware that they don't come true from seed.
It may be genuine ignorance on their part, or it may be a deliberate
attempt to mislead but either way, they'll see that it's been picked up.
If you or a member of your family, have a Twitter or Fb account you
could also issue a warning there, without naming the sellers, of course
but just stating you've seen this ad and that the plants cannot be grown
from seed and turn out to be what is claimed for them.

Hi Sacha,

My plan is to send them an email. I just thought it interesting to
garner some reactions to this misleading and widespread practice. Many
people would improperly label their seedling as Osakasuki, and perhaps
even propagate it as such...



--
Gardening in Lower Normandy

On 2014-01-09 14:48:36 +0000, Emery Davis said:

On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 12:41:14 +0000, sacha wrote:

I'd drop them a friendly email saying that you've been growing these for
years and wonder if they're aware that they don't come true from seed.
It may be genuine ignorance on their part, or it may be a deliberate
attempt to mislead but either way, they'll see that it's been picked up.
If you or a member of your family, have a Twitter or Fb account you
could also issue a warning there, without naming the sellers, of course
but just stating you've seen this ad and that the plants cannot be grown
from seed and turn out to be what is claimed for them.

Hi Sacha,

My plan is to send them an email. I just thought it interesting to
garner some reactions to this misleading and widespread practice. Many
people would improperly label their seedling as Osakasuki, and perhaps
even propagate it as such...

Seems a good way to handle it to me. Depending on the tone of their
answer or their future action, you could have a word with the RHS
because their name and reputation is being invoked.
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 2014-01-09 14:46:03 +0000, Emery Davis said:

On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 13:38:06 +0000, Janet wrote:

You honestly don't find that this description and the AGM are intended
to be seen as applying to the seeds they're selling?

No. As a gardener, I wouldn't mistake tree SEEDS to have an RHS AGM
award because of the potential for crossfertilisation.

I'm afraid you'd be mistaken then. On the very same site they sell seeds
for Acer campestre, which has also recieved the AGM. Campestre only
extremely rarely hybridises and seeds may be expected to be true to type.

So to answer the original question, Janet, you don't believe this is
unethical practice?

No, I'd classify it as too obvious and trivial to be intentional
deception.

OK, noted.

-E

Psssst, wanna buy a Hoheria?! ;-)
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon

"Emery Davis" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 13:38:06 +0000, Janet wrote:

You honestly don't find that this description and the AGM are intended
to be seen as applying to the seeds they're selling?

No. As a gardener, I wouldn't mistake tree SEEDS to have an RHS AGM
award because of the potential for crossfertilisation.

I'm afraid you'd be mistaken then. On the very same site they sell seeds
for Acer campestre, which has also recieved the AGM. Campestre only
extremely rarely hybridises and seeds may be expected to be true to type.

So to answer the original question, Janet, you don't believe this is
unethical practice?

No, I'd classify it as too obvious and trivial to be intentional
deception.

OK, noted.

-E



But surely "if it says that on the website, it must be true" for most
people who are not familiar with it!
And yes, I think it's unethical if they know it won't come true from their
seeds.
The question is, do they know that? If they do, I'd report them, if not
they need to be advised, but how to know if they are deliberately
advertising seeds to be deceptive?
Maybe they think that the seeds collected will come true. Maybe they won't.
I think it's deceptive if you advertise seeds that you are not sure about.

for my christmas present from Germany I got seeds from the seed bank Pole
bean "Snowcap" Dwarf french bean "aramis" (rare), Pea "Blauw-Schokler"
that has blue pods.
And lots of other rare seeds including a banana shaped tomato.
Great prezzie.

Tina

In article ,
says...

On 2014-01-09 14:46:03 +0000, Emery Davis said:

On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 13:38:06 +0000, Janet wrote:

You honestly don't find that this description and the AGM are intended
to be seen as applying to the seeds they're selling?

No. As a gardener, I wouldn't mistake tree SEEDS to have an RHS AGM
award because of the potential for crossfertilisation.

I'm afraid you'd be mistaken then. On the very same site they sell seeds
for Acer campestre, which has also recieved the AGM. Campestre only
extremely rarely hybridises and seeds may be expected to be true to type.

So to answer the original question, Janet, you don't believe this is
unethical practice?

No, I'd classify it as too obvious and trivial to be intentional
deception.

OK, noted.

-E

Psssst, wanna buy a Hoheria?! ;-)

Lucky gardener Mr Jones who germinated seeds from H glabrata (or was
it H. sextosa) which produced their hybrid offspring, Hoheria 'Glory of
Amlwch.

Janet.