On 23/03/2014 18:46, David Hill wrote:
On 23/03/2014 18:03, Spider wrote:
On 23/03/2014 15:23, Phil Cook wrote:
On 23/03/2014 11:24, Spider wrote:
On 23/03/2014 08:57, Bob Hobden wrote:
"Spider" wrote...

Bob Hobden wrote:
I've seen some horrendous "pruning" on our allotment site this
week, you
simply would not believe it, so there will be no fruit this year if
not
longer and it will take years for the plants to get back to the good
croppers they were, if they are not butchered again. The plot
holders
concerned know at least two of us on the site know what we are
doing,
pruning wise, so why won't people ask beforehand?

Because many people simply don't understand just how crucial some
pruning is.

In this case I would not have said any of these plants were getting
too
big, just getting going and beginning to show their best would have
been
my comment.

Mystifying, and very sad. Let's hope they have the sense to ask for
advice next time. There seems little point being too proud to ask for
help when you're surrounded by all the collective knowledge on an
allotment.

They will never ask if they haven't this time. The neighbourly thing to
do is to have a friendly word with them.



Or maybe offer them apples this autumn, because "they got the pruning
wrong this year". It might just start them thinking.



Or it could be they just don't like apples



Indeed. That could be true. They could be offered in return for other
crops, though. Another year, having made some friends on the allotment,
his approach may change.

--
Spider.
On high ground in SE London
gardening on heavy clay

Making mistakes is a good way of learning. You don't really know why you're doing something, and how well you need to do it, until you have seen the consequences of not doing it.

A lot of garden advice has come down from big gardens, and from maximising yield. If you can get 80% of the yield from 50% of the effort, and you're short of time, then it's worth doing.

I like to learn on my own, to try things out, see why it went wrong, think about it, try it differently next time. The thought of gardening "in public" with all the allotment holders around me watching me and mentally criticising scares the pants off me!

On Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:28:54 PM UTC, Spider wrote:
Totally brainless, but utterly believable. No wonder gardening is not a

respected profession.

--

Spider.

On high ground in SE London

gardening on heavy clay

No it's because gardening is not a respected profession "Anybody can do it"
So we'll keep seeing stuff like the heartbreaking example on Bob's site and gardeners will keep being paid peanuts and little respect.

Glad I've got that off my chest

Rod

On 24/03/2014 18:34, Rod wrote:
On Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:28:54 PM UTC, Spider wrote:
Totally brainless, but utterly believable. No wonder gardening is not a

respected profession.

--

Spider.

On high ground in SE London

gardening on heavy clay

No it's because gardening is not a respected profession "Anybody can do it"
So we'll keep seeing stuff like the heartbreaking example on Bob's site and gardeners will keep being paid peanuts and little respect.

Glad I've got that off my chest

Rod



I think we've just learned that anybody *can't* do it. What anybody
*can* do is ignorantly snip off a length of plant with secateurs.
Really understanding *why* ones taking out that particular bit of plant
is what makes a good gardener. I'm reasonably good at pruning but, when
faced with a plant I'm not familiar with, I always stop and ask myself:
"Why am I cutting out this branch? Does it flower on this year's wood or
older wood?" It's that thinking and learning process that makes the
difference.

Pay should follow know-how and experience, but it rarely does. For a
country apparently so hungry for the next generation of professional
gardeners, we seem hopelessly blinkered to the solution. A good scale of
pay and some much needed respect would make all the difference, I agree.
Alas, when a householder wants a 'gardener', "how much" is invariably
asked before "how good". It's not hard to see how respect goes down the
drain.

I have a good friend who works as a jobbing gardener. She's very keen
but far from confident. To resolve this, she is going to apply for an
on-line RHS foundation course (or simialr) so that she can learn the job
properly and have a piece of paper to show for it. Hopefully, then,
she'll be able to earn a decent wage.
--
Spider.
On high ground in SE London
gardening on heavy clay

On Tuesday, March 25, 2014 2:48:19 PM UTC, Spider wrote:



I think we've just learned that anybody *can't* do it. What anybody

*can* do is ignorantly snip off a length of plant with secateurs.

Really understanding *why* ones taking out that particular bit of plant

is what makes a good gardener. I'm reasonably good at pruning but, when

faced with a plant I'm not familiar with, I always stop and ask myself:

"Why am I cutting out this branch? Does it flower on this year's wood or

older wood?" It's that thinking and learning process that makes the

difference.

Yes it seems a natural thing to do, but sadly it often starts with something like "Plants are supposed to be pruned aren't they, it's a nice day today so lets just go and hack about the garden"
Our next door neighbour (not a guy who invites advice) 'pruned' his lovely old
Casino rose a couple of years ago in full flower -just hacked pieces off - no idea why or what or was it necessary -Hadn't had time to do it before he said.

Rod

On 25/03/2014 15:40, Rod wrote:
On Tuesday, March 25, 2014 2:48:19 PM UTC, Spider wrote:



I think we've just learned that anybody *can't* do it. What anybody

*can* do is ignorantly snip off a length of plant with secateurs.

Really understanding *why* ones taking out that particular bit of plant

is what makes a good gardener. I'm reasonably good at pruning but, when

faced with a plant I'm not familiar with, I always stop and ask myself:

"Why am I cutting out this branch? Does it flower on this year's wood or

older wood?" It's that thinking and learning process that makes the

difference.

Yes it seems a natural thing to do, but sadly it often starts with something like "Plants are supposed to be pruned aren't they, it's a nice day today so lets just go and hack about the garden"
Our next door neighbour (not a guy who invites advice) 'pruned' his lovely old
Casino rose a couple of years ago in full flower -just hacked pieces off - no idea why or what or was it necessary -Hadn't had time to do it before he said.

Rod




Inexplicable. I'm not even sure I want to understand that sort of
mentality. It's vandalism, not gardening.
--
Spider.
On high ground in SE London
gardening on heavy clay

On 2014-03-25 14:48:19 +0000, Spider said:

On 24/03/2014 18:34, Rod wrote:
On Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:28:54 PM UTC, Spider wrote:
Totally brainless, but utterly believable. No wonder gardening is not a

respected profession.

--

Spider.

On high ground in SE London

gardening on heavy clay

No it's because gardening is not a respected profession "Anybody can do it"
So we'll keep seeing stuff like the heartbreaking example on Bob's site
and gardeners will keep being paid peanuts and little respect.

Glad I've got that off my chest

Rod



I think we've just learned that anybody *can't* do it. What anybody
*can* do is ignorantly snip off a length of plant with secateurs.
Really understanding *why* ones taking out that particular bit of plant
is what makes a good gardener. I'm reasonably good at pruning but,
when faced with a plant I'm not familiar with, I always stop and ask
myself: "Why am I cutting out this branch? Does it flower on this
year's wood or older wood?" It's that thinking and learning process
that makes the difference.

Pay should follow know-how and experience, but it rarely does. For a
country apparently so hungry for the next generation of professional
gardeners, we seem hopelessly blinkered to the solution. A good scale
of pay and some much needed respect would make all the difference, I
agree. Alas, when a householder wants a 'gardener', "how much" is
invariably asked before "how good". It's not hard to see how respect
goes down the drain.

I have a good friend who works as a jobbing gardener. She's very keen
but far from confident. To resolve this, she is going to apply for an
on-line RHS foundation course (or simialr) so that she can learn the
job properly and have a piece of paper to show for it. Hopefully,
then, she'll be able to earn a decent wage.

A few years ago we visited the garden of an old lady I know in Jersey.
She pointed to a beautifully healthy rose she had, clambering all over
a low granite wall and asked Ray why it just wouldn't flower. It was
Rosa Banksia lutea and her gardener had been diligently pruning it back
every autumn, not realising that it flowers on old wood!
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 25/03/2014 17:07, Sacha wrote:
On 2014-03-25 14:48:19 +0000, Spider said:

On 24/03/2014 18:34, Rod wrote:
On Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:28:54 PM UTC, Spider wrote:
Totally brainless, but utterly believable. No wonder gardening is not a

respected profession.

--

Spider.

On high ground in SE London

gardening on heavy clay

No it's because gardening is not a respected profession "Anybody can
do it"
So we'll keep seeing stuff like the heartbreaking example on Bob's
site and gardeners will keep being paid peanuts and little respect.

Glad I've got that off my chest

Rod



I think we've just learned that anybody *can't* do it. What anybody
*can* do is ignorantly snip off a length of plant with secateurs.
Really understanding *why* ones taking out that particular bit of
plant is what makes a good gardener. I'm reasonably good at pruning
but, when faced with a plant I'm not familiar with, I always stop and
ask myself: "Why am I cutting out this branch? Does it flower on this
year's wood or older wood?" It's that thinking and learning process
that makes the difference.

Pay should follow know-how and experience, but it rarely does. For a
country apparently so hungry for the next generation of professional
gardeners, we seem hopelessly blinkered to the solution. A good scale
of pay and some much needed respect would make all the difference, I
agree. Alas, when a householder wants a 'gardener', "how much" is
invariably asked before "how good". It's not hard to see how respect
goes down the drain.

I have a good friend who works as a jobbing gardener. She's very keen
but far from confident. To resolve this, she is going to apply for an
on-line RHS foundation course (or simialr) so that she can learn the
job properly and have a piece of paper to show for it. Hopefully,
then, she'll be able to earn a decent wage.

A few years ago we visited the garden of an old lady I know in Jersey.
She pointed to a beautifully healthy rose she had, clambering all over a
low granite wall and asked Ray why it just wouldn't flower. It was Rosa
Banksia lutea and her gardener had been diligently pruning it back every
autumn, not realising that it flowers on old wood!



Oh, what a shame! That's a lovely rose. Let's hope her gardener
learned his lesson (not all roses are the same) and that she now has the
pleasure of those late spring blooms.

I have seen online a lovely weeping standard version of this rose. I
would love to grow it that way but, as we live on the side of a hill,
the graft would probably be torn adrift by winter winds.
--
Spider.
On high ground in SE London
gardening on heavy clay

On 2014-03-25 18:10:21 +0000, Spider said:

On 25/03/2014 17:07, Sacha wrote:
On 2014-03-25 14:48:19 +0000, Spider said:

On 24/03/2014 18:34, Rod wrote:
On Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:28:54 PM UTC, Spider wrote:
Totally brainless, but utterly believable. No wonder gardening is not a

respected profession.

--

Spider.

On high ground in SE London

gardening on heavy clay

No it's because gardening is not a respected profession "Anybody can
do it"
So we'll keep seeing stuff like the heartbreaking example on Bob's
site and gardeners will keep being paid peanuts and little respect.

Glad I've got that off my chest

Rod



I think we've just learned that anybody *can't* do it. What anybody
*can* do is ignorantly snip off a length of plant with secateurs.
Really understanding *why* ones taking out that particular bit of
plant is what makes a good gardener. I'm reasonably good at pruning
but, when faced with a plant I'm not familiar with, I always stop and
ask myself: "Why am I cutting out this branch? Does it flower on this
year's wood or older wood?" It's that thinking and learning process
that makes the difference.

Pay should follow know-how and experience, but it rarely does. For a
country apparently so hungry for the next generation of professional
gardeners, we seem hopelessly blinkered to the solution. A good scale
of pay and some much needed respect would make all the difference, I
agree. Alas, when a householder wants a 'gardener', "how much" is
invariably asked before "how good". It's not hard to see how respect
goes down the drain.

I have a good friend who works as a jobbing gardener. She's very keen
but far from confident. To resolve this, she is going to apply for an
on-line RHS foundation course (or simialr) so that she can learn the
job properly and have a piece of paper to show for it. Hopefully,
then, she'll be able to earn a decent wage.

A few years ago we visited the garden of an old lady I know in Jersey.
She pointed to a beautifully healthy rose she had, clambering all over a
low granite wall and asked Ray why it just wouldn't flower. It was Rosa
Banksia lutea and her gardener had been diligently pruning it back every
autumn, not realising that it flowers on old wood!



Oh, what a shame! That's a lovely rose. Let's hope her gardener
learned his lesson (not all roses are the same) and that she now has
the pleasure of those late spring blooms.

I have seen online a lovely weeping standard version of this rose. I
would love to grow it that way but, as we live on the side of a hill,
the graft would probably be torn adrift by winter winds.

I hope hers is flourishing but as she's now in her 90s I wonder if she
gets out to see her garden much. I'm torn between wanting to know if
the plant is doing its best and worrying about agitating her over it.
It was that same gardener who, in trying to cut down work (he was also
very elderly) had surrounded all her rather wonderful Camellias with
bark chippings. The Camellias were looking very yellow and Ray had to
explain to her the rotting down process of the bark and its effect upon
the soil. And in her large and beautiful greenhouse, the gardener was
growing nothing but Pelargoniums which seemed a pity but was
understandable from his pov!
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On Sat, 22 Mar 2014 13:33:53 -0000, "Bob Hobden"
wrote:

I've seen some horrendous "pruning" on our allotment site this week, you
simply would not believe it, so there will be no fruit this year if not
longer and it will take years for the plants to get back to the good
croppers they were, if they are not butchered again. The plot holders
concerned know at least two of us on the site know what we are doing,
pruning wise, so why won't people ask beforehand?

The next thing is these mature plants be grubbed out because they have
stopped fruiting!

-- Regards
Bob Hobden
Posting to this Newsgroup
from the W.of London. UK



Because they maybe don't know who to ask for advice.

Some people just do what they want regardless of good advice.
--
http://www.voucherfreebies.co.uk

On 29/03/2014 11:16, mogga wrote:
Because they maybe don't know who to ask for advice.

Some people just do what they want regardless of good advice.

Or bad advice, or conflicting advice.
Or try too remember what the book said about cutting back by 2/3rds, or
was it to 3 buds?
Not forgetting to cut out everything in the middle to let light in and
cut out the old and leave in the new, well I'm sure it was for some sort
of fruit, and apple and pear are fruit so it should be OK.
Oh to hell with them, I'll pull them up and but from Tesco.

Or advice which tells you WHAT to do but not WHY?

I know some people just want to be told "what" but I certainly find it easier to remember if I know why I'm supposed to be doing it. And I'm a lot more likely to obey ;-)

"kay" wrote in message ...


David Hill;1000415 Wrote:

Or bad advice, or conflicting advice.
Or try too remember what the book said about cutting back by 2/3rds, or

was it to 3 buds?
Not forgetting to cut out everything in the middle to let light in and
cut out the old and leave in the new, well I'm sure it was for some sort

of fruit, and apple and pear are fruit so it should be OK.
Oh to hell with them, I'll pull them up and but from Tesco.

Or advice which tells you WHAT to do but not WHY?

I know some people just want to be told "what" but I certainly find it
easier to remember if I know why I'm supposed to be doing it. And I'm a
lot more likely to obey ;-)

--
kay
================================================== ====


When I was teaching I used to try to adopt the following old Chinese proverb

""“Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll
understand.�"

Mike


---------------------------------------------------------------
www.friendsofshanklintheatre.co.uk