On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 12:00:03 +0100, (sw) wrote:

martin wrote:

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 11:35:39 +0100, (sw) wrote:

martin wrote:

On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 12:40:29 +0100, (sw) wrote:


[-]

As I understand the matter, it's because cement requires relatively
large amounts of energy to burn the lime/chalk and again to transport
the result, especially if it's bought as ready-mix (I doubt concrete
post manufacturers do this, though).
Wood is better :-)

because it's cut down in 3rd world rain forests? ;-)

Our fence posts were/are nice native larch, cut down in its prime to
permit the (some) broadleave reforestation of all those welsh
hillsides... :-)

I expected that :-)

and it walked all the way to your garden :-)

Wish it did, and could dig its own holes into the bargain...

LOL You'd make a fortune with posts like that.
--
martin

martin wrote:

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 12:00:03 +0100, (sw) wrote:

martin wrote:

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 11:35:39 +0100, (sw) wrote:

martin wrote:

On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 12:40:29 +0100, (sw) wrote:


[-]

As I understand the matter, it's because cement requires relatively
large amounts of energy to burn the lime/chalk and again to transport
the result, especially if it's bought as ready-mix (I doubt concrete
post manufacturers do this, though).
Wood is better :-)

because it's cut down in 3rd world rain forests? ;-)

Our fence posts were/are nice native larch, cut down in its prime to
permit the (some) broadleave reforestation of all those welsh
hillsides... :-)

I expected that :-)

and it walked all the way to your garden :-)

Wish it did, and could dig its own holes into the bargain...

LOL You'd make a fortune with posts like that.

Another *useful* thing GM could do for us. ;-)

regards
sarah


--
Waist deep, neck deep
We'll be drowning before too long
We're neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the damned fools keep yelling to push on

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 13:27:41 +0100, (sw) wrote:

martin wrote:

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 12:00:03 +0100, (sw) wrote:

martin wrote:

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 11:35:39 +0100, (sw) wrote:

martin wrote:

On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 12:40:29 +0100, (sw) wrote:


[-]

As I understand the matter, it's because cement requires relatively
large amounts of energy to burn the lime/chalk and again to transport
the result, especially if it's bought as ready-mix (I doubt concrete
post manufacturers do this, though).
Wood is better :-)

because it's cut down in 3rd world rain forests? ;-)

Our fence posts were/are nice native larch, cut down in its prime to
permit the (some) broadleave reforestation of all those welsh
hillsides... :-)

I expected that :-)

and it walked all the way to your garden :-)

Wish it did, and could dig its own holes into the bargain...

LOL You'd make a fortune with posts like that.

Another *useful* thing GM could do for us. ;-)

posts with little legs and sprouting perfect roses when in place?
--
martin

Well with forward thinking you just plant a Leylandii where you want each
post to be. Leave for a few years, then cut off to required height, remove
any remaining side growth, and there you have your fencing posts, well
anchored to ground. (Have to add your own roses though).

--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 14:23:45 +0100, "David Hill"
wrote:

Well with forward thinking you just plant a Leylandii where you want each
post to be. Leave for a few years, then cut off to required height, remove
any remaining side growth, and there you have your fencing posts, well
anchored to ground. (Have to add your own roses though).

or use willow posts to prop up your young trees. Willow grows, young
trees all die. When I was a kid my parents had quite a nice row of
willow :-)
--
martin

____/|
O \ o.O|
\\ =(_)=
__))____ooO U Ooo
``` '''

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 17:58:40 +0100, (sw) wrote:

martin wrote:

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 13:27:41 +0100, (sw) wrote:

martin wrote:

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 12:00:03 +0100, (sw) wrote:

[-]

Our fence posts were/are nice native larch, cut down in its prime to
permit the (some) broadleave reforestation of all those welsh
hillsides... :-)

I expected that :-)

and it walked all the way to your garden :-)

Wish it did, and could dig its own holes into the bargain...

LOL You'd make a fortune with posts like that.

Another *useful* thing GM could do for us. ;-)

posts with little legs and sprouting perfect roses when in place?

Sapient pearwood -- now there's a thought, but it would be wasted on a
fence...

I'd thought of something like David's leylandii... plant the seedling,
it grows fast to maximum height of about 9' and 6" diameter, is
tap-rooted rather than broad, shallow roots (less competition for the
beds/damage to foundations/whatever). When they reach the desired
height/diameter, simply sprinkle the magic powder/speak a harsh word or
whatever, and they die. Trim off the branches and you've got a row of
fence posts.
If your neighbour doesn't shoot you first.

Cherry seems a good thing for that sort of application. It's more than
fifteen years since we cut down a cherry tree, because it had a virus
and the stump is still like steel.
--
martin

____/|
O \ o.O|
\\ =(_)=
__))____ooO U Ooo
``` '''

In article ,
says...
martin wrote:

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 13:27:41 +0100, (sw) wrote:

martin wrote:

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 12:00:03 +0100, (sw) wrote:

[-]

Our fence posts were/are nice native larch, cut down in its prime to
permit the (some) broadleave reforestation of all those welsh
hillsides... :-)

I expected that :-)

and it walked all the way to your garden :-)

Wish it did, and could dig its own holes into the bargain...

LOL You'd make a fortune with posts like that.

Another *useful* thing GM could do for us. ;-)

posts with little legs and sprouting perfect roses when in place?

Sapient pearwood -- now there's a thought, but it would be wasted on a
fence...

Could be useful for security though, and would make doing the laundry
interesting...

Johanna

The message
from "David Hill" contains these
words:

Well with forward thinking you just plant a Leylandii where you want each
post to be. Leave for a few years, then cut off to required height, remove
any remaining side growth, and there you have your fencing posts, well
anchored to ground. (Have to add your own roses though).

Coming soon to a garden centre near you...the grow-your-own log cabin
house. An ideal present for new babies.

:-)

Janet

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 22:51:48 +0100, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from "David Hill" contains these
words:

Well with forward thinking you just plant a Leylandii where you want each
post to be. Leave for a few years, then cut off to required height, remove
any remaining side growth, and there you have your fencing posts, well
anchored to ground. (Have to add your own roses though).

Coming soon to a garden centre near you...the grow-your-own log cabin
house. An ideal present for new babies.

and Wendy?
--
martin

____/|
O \ o.O|
\\ =(_)=
__))____ooO U Ooo
``` '''

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 22:51:48 +0100, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from "David Hill" contains these
words:

Well with forward thinking you just plant a Leylandii where you want each
post to be. Leave for a few years, then cut off to required height, remove
any remaining side growth, and there you have your fencing posts, well
anchored to ground. (Have to add your own roses though).

Coming soon to a garden centre near you...the grow-your-own log cabin
house. An ideal present for new babies.

and Wendy?
--
martin

____/|
O \ o.O|
\\ =(_)=
__))____ooO U Ooo
``` '''

Chris Hogg wrote:

Hello Chris

CH What is the best way to stop wooden fence posts rotting
CH below ground level?

There isn't one, sorry. Wood rots in contact with water.

Untreated softwood lasts 5-10 years. (Dependant on soil conditions)

Treated, 10-20 years. (Larch can do this untreated)

Some hardwoods (split chestnut, oak, willow) will last 50+ years
untreated.

CH My understanding is that keeping them
CH out of contact with the soil helps considerably (i.e. by
CH setting them in concrete), but would wrapping the bases in
CH polythene make things better or worse (allowing for some
CH drainage at the base to let water out)?

No, it merely traps the water against the wood. The best idea is to
either accept that the wood will rot, or understand how rotting works
and work to avoid it. Wood rots when in constant or regular exposure
to moisture. Get that moisture away from the wood ASAP and it'll last
longer.

Metposts can help, but themselves trap water where they touch the wood
and I don't think they're really a good solution since their contact
area is so small the wood tends to snap off when rotting starts before
it would if it was planted. Possibly sealing the joint with mastic
might help, but some is bound to get in through the wood itself and
you've just stopped any chance it had of evaporating, so possibly
not...

If you use concrete, flaunch the top to shed excess water and ensure
the base of the post is on stones to aid free drainage. It'll still
rot though. Ramming stones in dry has to be the best way to avoid
rotting.

Split chestnut lasts for ages, but looks very rustic and hard to come
by unless you know a forestor who still knows the art. (All done by
hand, I don't know of any retailers) Willow also lasts for a long
time, but has the habit of starting to grow again if you use it green
in wet ground. Oak is superb but expensive.

If you use tanalised softwood (as I do), never cut it below ground
level as you then compromise its protection. (ie, if you cut it off
for height, do it from the top, and angle the cut so it sheds water -
retreat (not as good as tanalising, but better than nowt))

Plastic - don't even think about it. Expensive and not UV stablised so
instead of rotting they just go brittle and shatter.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/

In article ,
Simon Avery wrote:
Chris Hogg wrote:

CH What is the best way to stop wooden fence posts rotting
CH below ground level?

There isn't one, sorry. Wood rots in contact with water.

It's not the water, as such. Both elm and oak will last for
centuries under water. The problem is the combination of wet and
oxygen just below soil level that allows fungi to flourish.

Untreated softwood lasts 5-10 years. (Dependant on soil conditions)

Treated, 10-20 years. (Larch can do this untreated)

Some hardwoods (split chestnut, oak, willow) will last 50+ years
untreated.

In the UK, just below soil level? You jest, sirrah!

From experience, softwood lasts 1-2 years untreated, and chestnut
or oak sapwood (the former well creosoted) about 5.

I haven't got much experience of the heartwood, but it certainly
lasts a lot better. Yew is the ONLY British tree that I know of
where the sapwood will survive being embedded just below damp
soil level for more than about 5 years.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

(Nick Maclaren) wrote:

Hello Nick

There isn't one, sorry. Wood rots in contact with water.
NM It's not the water, as such. Both elm and oak will last for
NM centuries under water. The problem is the combination of
NM wet and oxygen just below soil level that allows fungi to
NM flourish.

Fair enough.

Untreated softwood lasts 5-10 years. (Dependant on soil
conditions) Treated, 10-20 years. (Larch can do this
untreated) Some hardwoods (split chestnut, oak, willow)
will last 50+ years untreated.
NM In the UK, just below soil level? You jest, sirrah!

Nope - softwood is my own experience (been fencing for about 15
years). Hardwood - from rough dates given by other fencers, locals -
you'll have to wait a few more years if you want my own experience of
it though.

NM From experience, softwood lasts 1-2 years untreated, and
NM chestnut or oak sapwood (the former well creosoted) about 5.

Good god man, what are you doing to the poor stuff?

Even sawn untreated softwood, which rots fastest of all (opposed to
round, split or half-round) lasts longer than 5 years. Round untreated
softwood posts I put in ~15 years ago are still standing soundly (At
Greenaway house estate - to replace fences completely smashed after
the '87 storms). I know they're untreated because we cut them
ourselves from local Douglas Fir, Scots Pine and Larch.

Done a fair bit of fencing on Dartmoor, even across bogs - possibly
the most hostile environment in the South; where split chestnut lasts
for 30+ years (even if it looks like a hundred years old after a
single year). Oak's also used, often split, sometimes sawn, and that
lasts for almost as long.

NM I haven't got much experience of the heartwood, but it
NM certainly lasts a lot better. Yew is the ONLY British tree
NM that I know of where the sapwood will survive being embedded
NM just below damp soil level for more than about 5 years.

True, Yew is an exceptional tree. The only one (AFAIK) that doesn't
rot at all, hence the excessive age of some of 'em. Tad tricky to get
it in enough volume to be commercially considered though.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/

In article ,
Simon Avery wrote:

Untreated softwood lasts 5-10 years. (Dependant on soil
conditions) Treated, 10-20 years. (Larch can do this
untreated) Some hardwoods (split chestnut, oak, willow)
will last 50+ years untreated.
NM In the UK, just below soil level? You jest, sirrah!

Nope - softwood is my own experience (been fencing for about 15
years). Hardwood - from rough dates given by other fencers, locals -
you'll have to wait a few more years if you want my own experience of
it though.

Well, my figures are from both my own experience and that of many
other people. But see below why.

NM From experience, softwood lasts 1-2 years untreated, and
NM chestnut or oak sapwood (the former well creosoted) about 5.

Good god man, what are you doing to the poor stuff?

See below.

Even sawn untreated softwood, which rots fastest of all (opposed to
round, split or half-round) lasts longer than 5 years. Round untreated
softwood posts I put in ~15 years ago are still standing soundly (At
Greenaway house estate - to replace fences completely smashed after
the '87 storms). I know they're untreated because we cut them
ourselves from local Douglas Fir, Scots Pine and Larch.

I can witness the same, leading to weakening to the point of just
snapping in under 2 years. Not once, but many times.

Done a fair bit of fencing on Dartmoor, even across bogs - possibly
the most hostile environment in the South; where split chestnut lasts
for 30+ years (even if it looks like a hundred years old after a
single year). Oak's also used, often split, sometimes sawn, and that
lasts for almost as long.

That is the point. Dartmoor is perhaps the LEAST hostile
environment in the south! I am talking about the alluvial soils of
south east England, which ARE among the most hostile.

The reason is that it isn't the water that causes the trouble, but
the fungi. There are MANY more wood destroying fungi in the richer
soils, and they thrive MUCH better. Peat is a very effective
preservative, but even poor, acid soils aren't too bad. Absolutely
the worst for fungal attack are the rich, slightly alkaline loams.

NM I haven't got much experience of the heartwood, but it
NM certainly lasts a lot better. Yew is the ONLY British tree
NM that I know of where the sapwood will survive being embedded
NM just below damp soil level for more than about 5 years.

True, Yew is an exceptional tree. The only one (AFAIK) that doesn't
rot at all, hence the excessive age of some of 'em. Tad tricky to get
it in enough volume to be commercially considered though.

It rots, too - even the heartwood. Just very slowly.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
Simon Avery wrote:

Untreated softwood lasts 5-10 years. (Dependant on soil
conditions) Treated, 10-20 years. (Larch can do this
untreated) Some hardwoods (split chestnut, oak, willow)
will last 50+ years untreated.
NM In the UK, just below soil level? You jest, sirrah!

Nope - softwood is my own experience (been fencing for about 15
years). Hardwood - from rough dates given by other fencers, locals -
you'll have to wait a few more years if you want my own experience of
it though.

Well, my figures are from both my own experience and that of many
other people. But see below why.

NM From experience, softwood lasts 1-2 years untreated, and
NM chestnut or oak sapwood (the former well creosoted) about 5.

Good god man, what are you doing to the poor stuff?

See below.

Even sawn untreated softwood, which rots fastest of all (opposed to
round, split or half-round) lasts longer than 5 years. Round untreated
softwood posts I put in ~15 years ago are still standing soundly (At
Greenaway house estate - to replace fences completely smashed after
the '87 storms). I know they're untreated because we cut them
ourselves from local Douglas Fir, Scots Pine and Larch.

I can witness the same, leading to weakening to the point of just
snapping in under 2 years. Not once, but many times.

Done a fair bit of fencing on Dartmoor, even across bogs - possibly
the most hostile environment in the South; where split chestnut lasts
for 30+ years (even if it looks like a hundred years old after a
single year). Oak's also used, often split, sometimes sawn, and that
lasts for almost as long.

That is the point. Dartmoor is perhaps the LEAST hostile
environment in the south! I am talking about the alluvial soils of
south east England, which ARE among the most hostile.

The reason is that it isn't the water that causes the trouble, but
the fungi. There are MANY more wood destroying fungi in the richer
soils, and they thrive MUCH better. Peat is a very effective
preservative, but even poor, acid soils aren't too bad. Absolutely
the worst for fungal attack are the rich, slightly alkaline loams.

NM I haven't got much experience of the heartwood, but it
NM certainly lasts a lot better. Yew is the ONLY British tree
NM that I know of where the sapwood will survive being embedded
NM just below damp soil level for more than about 5 years.

True, Yew is an exceptional tree. The only one (AFAIK) that doesn't
rot at all, hence the excessive age of some of 'em. Tad tricky to get
it in enough volume to be commercially considered though.

It rots, too - even the heartwood. Just very slowly.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.