In article , sw
writes

Why? This is the first I've heard of it.

As I understand the matter, it's because cement requires relatively
large amounts of energy to burn the lime/chalk and again to transport
the result, especially if it's bought as ready-mix (I doubt concrete
post manufacturers do this, though).
Wood is better :-)

In Denmark the cement factory's supply the local community with their
excess heat which the householders use for central heating.
--
David

In article , sw
writes

Why? This is the first I've heard of it.

As I understand the matter, it's because cement requires relatively
large amounts of energy to burn the lime/chalk and again to transport
the result, especially if it's bought as ready-mix (I doubt concrete
post manufacturers do this, though).
Wood is better :-)

In Denmark the cement factory's supply the local community with their
excess heat which the householders use for central heating.
--
David

Jonathan Ward wrote:

In article , says...

Chris Hogg wrote:


my conscience twinges when I remember that concrete is extremely
environmentally unsound.




Why? This is the first I've heard of it.

As I understand the matter, it's because cement requires relatively
large amounts of energy to burn the lime/chalk and again to transport
the result, especially if it's bought as ready-mix (I doubt concrete
post manufacturers do this, though).
Wood is better :-)

regards
sarah


--
Waist deep, neck deep
We'll be drowning before too long
We're neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the damned fools keep yelling to push on

(Nick Maclaren) wrote:

Hello Nick

Even sawn untreated softwood, which rots fastest of all
(opposed to round, split or half-round) lasts longer than 5
years. Round untreated softwood posts I put in ~15 years
ago are still standing soundly (At Greenaway house estate -
to replace fences completely smashed after the '87 storms).
I know they're untreated because we cut them ourselves from
local Douglas Fir, Scots Pine and Larch.
NM I can witness the same, leading to weakening to the point of
NM just snapping in under 2 years. Not once, but many times.

Eek. I guess concrete and metal posts are popular around your way
then? And what do BT and the local eleco's use for overhead apparatus?

NM The reason is that it isn't the water that causes the
NM trouble, but the fungi. There are MANY more wood destroying
NM fungi in the richer soils, and they thrive MUCH better.
NM Peat is a very effective preservative, but even poor, acid
NM soils aren't too bad. Absolutely the worst for fungal
NM attack are the rich, slightly alkaline loams.

Gotya, and I understand now. I have removed posts from moorland bogs
to find them more solid underground than above - it's quite weird to
see a post that's 4" across at the bottom and 2" for most of its
length.

True, Yew is an exceptional tree. The only one (AFAIK) that
doesn't rot at all, hence the excessive age of some of 'em.
Tad tricky to get it in enough volume to be commercially
considered though.
NM It rots, too - even the heartwood. Just very slowly.

Very, /very/ slowly. Long enough so that you'd never have to replace
your own work.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/

(Nick Maclaren) wrote:

Hello Nick

Even sawn untreated softwood, which rots fastest of all
(opposed to round, split or half-round) lasts longer than 5
years. Round untreated softwood posts I put in ~15 years
ago are still standing soundly (At Greenaway house estate -
to replace fences completely smashed after the '87 storms).
I know they're untreated because we cut them ourselves from
local Douglas Fir, Scots Pine and Larch.
NM I can witness the same, leading to weakening to the point of
NM just snapping in under 2 years. Not once, but many times.

Eek. I guess concrete and metal posts are popular around your way
then? And what do BT and the local eleco's use for overhead apparatus?

NM The reason is that it isn't the water that causes the
NM trouble, but the fungi. There are MANY more wood destroying
NM fungi in the richer soils, and they thrive MUCH better.
NM Peat is a very effective preservative, but even poor, acid
NM soils aren't too bad. Absolutely the worst for fungal
NM attack are the rich, slightly alkaline loams.

Gotya, and I understand now. I have removed posts from moorland bogs
to find them more solid underground than above - it's quite weird to
see a post that's 4" across at the bottom and 2" for most of its
length.

True, Yew is an exceptional tree. The only one (AFAIK) that
doesn't rot at all, hence the excessive age of some of 'em.
Tad tricky to get it in enough volume to be commercially
considered though.
NM It rots, too - even the heartwood. Just very slowly.

Very, /very/ slowly. Long enough so that you'd never have to replace
your own work.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/

(Nick Maclaren) wrote:

Hello Nick

Even sawn untreated softwood, which rots fastest of all
(opposed to round, split or half-round) lasts longer than 5
years. Round untreated softwood posts I put in ~15 years
ago are still standing soundly (At Greenaway house estate -
to replace fences completely smashed after the '87 storms).
I know they're untreated because we cut them ourselves from
local Douglas Fir, Scots Pine and Larch.
NM I can witness the same, leading to weakening to the point of
NM just snapping in under 2 years. Not once, but many times.

Eek. I guess concrete and metal posts are popular around your way
then? And what do BT and the local eleco's use for overhead apparatus?

NM The reason is that it isn't the water that causes the
NM trouble, but the fungi. There are MANY more wood destroying
NM fungi in the richer soils, and they thrive MUCH better.
NM Peat is a very effective preservative, but even poor, acid
NM soils aren't too bad. Absolutely the worst for fungal
NM attack are the rich, slightly alkaline loams.

Gotya, and I understand now. I have removed posts from moorland bogs
to find them more solid underground than above - it's quite weird to
see a post that's 4" across at the bottom and 2" for most of its
length.

True, Yew is an exceptional tree. The only one (AFAIK) that
doesn't rot at all, hence the excessive age of some of 'em.
Tad tricky to get it in enough volume to be commercially
considered though.
NM It rots, too - even the heartwood. Just very slowly.

Very, /very/ slowly. Long enough so that you'd never have to replace
your own work.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/

(Nick Maclaren) wrote:

Hello Nick

Even sawn untreated softwood, which rots fastest of all
(opposed to round, split or half-round) lasts longer than 5
years. Round untreated softwood posts I put in ~15 years
ago are still standing soundly (At Greenaway house estate -
to replace fences completely smashed after the '87 storms).
I know they're untreated because we cut them ourselves from
local Douglas Fir, Scots Pine and Larch.
NM I can witness the same, leading to weakening to the point of
NM just snapping in under 2 years. Not once, but many times.

Eek. I guess concrete and metal posts are popular around your way
then? And what do BT and the local eleco's use for overhead apparatus?

NM The reason is that it isn't the water that causes the
NM trouble, but the fungi. There are MANY more wood destroying
NM fungi in the richer soils, and they thrive MUCH better.
NM Peat is a very effective preservative, but even poor, acid
NM soils aren't too bad. Absolutely the worst for fungal
NM attack are the rich, slightly alkaline loams.

Gotya, and I understand now. I have removed posts from moorland bogs
to find them more solid underground than above - it's quite weird to
see a post that's 4" across at the bottom and 2" for most of its
length.

True, Yew is an exceptional tree. The only one (AFAIK) that
doesn't rot at all, hence the excessive age of some of 'em.
Tad tricky to get it in enough volume to be commercially
considered though.
NM It rots, too - even the heartwood. Just very slowly.

Very, /very/ slowly. Long enough so that you'd never have to replace
your own work.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/

(Nick Maclaren) wrote:

Hello Nick

Even sawn untreated softwood, which rots fastest of all
(opposed to round, split or half-round) lasts longer than 5
years. Round untreated softwood posts I put in ~15 years
ago are still standing soundly (At Greenaway house estate -
to replace fences completely smashed after the '87 storms).
I know they're untreated because we cut them ourselves from
local Douglas Fir, Scots Pine and Larch.
NM I can witness the same, leading to weakening to the point of
NM just snapping in under 2 years. Not once, but many times.

Eek. I guess concrete and metal posts are popular around your way
then? And what do BT and the local eleco's use for overhead apparatus?

NM The reason is that it isn't the water that causes the
NM trouble, but the fungi. There are MANY more wood destroying
NM fungi in the richer soils, and they thrive MUCH better.
NM Peat is a very effective preservative, but even poor, acid
NM soils aren't too bad. Absolutely the worst for fungal
NM attack are the rich, slightly alkaline loams.

Gotya, and I understand now. I have removed posts from moorland bogs
to find them more solid underground than above - it's quite weird to
see a post that's 4" across at the bottom and 2" for most of its
length.

True, Yew is an exceptional tree. The only one (AFAIK) that
doesn't rot at all, hence the excessive age of some of 'em.
Tad tricky to get it in enough volume to be commercially
considered though.
NM It rots, too - even the heartwood. Just very slowly.

Very, /very/ slowly. Long enough so that you'd never have to replace
your own work.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/

In article ,
Simon Avery wrote:
(Nick Maclaren) wrote:

Even sawn untreated softwood, which rots fastest of all
(opposed to round, split or half-round) lasts longer than 5
years. Round untreated softwood posts I put in ~15 years
ago are still standing soundly (At Greenaway house estate -
to replace fences completely smashed after the '87 storms).
I know they're untreated because we cut them ourselves from
local Douglas Fir, Scots Pine and Larch.
NM I can witness the same, leading to weakening to the point of
NM just snapping in under 2 years. Not once, but many times.

Eek. I guess concrete and metal posts are popular around your way
then? And what do BT and the local eleco's use for overhead apparatus?

Yes. You raise an interesting point about BT etc. Telegraph poles
and railway sleepers were softwood, and last for half a century at
least. The way they are treated is to put them in a tank, withdraw
much of the air, and then release creosote into it while restoring
normal pressure. They then draw the creosote (or whatever it is,
perhaps something even nastier) right into the cells.

NM The reason is that it isn't the water that causes the
NM trouble, but the fungi. There are MANY more wood destroying
NM fungi in the richer soils, and they thrive MUCH better.
NM Peat is a very effective preservative, but even poor, acid
NM soils aren't too bad. Absolutely the worst for fungal
NM attack are the rich, slightly alkaline loams.

Gotya, and I understand now. I have removed posts from moorland bogs
to find them more solid underground than above - it's quite weird to
see a post that's 4" across at the bottom and 2" for most of its
length.

Yes, indeed, and that is why most of the neolithic organic remains
(bodies, clothes etc.) come from peat bogs.

True, Yew is an exceptional tree. The only one (AFAIK) that
doesn't rot at all, hence the excessive age of some of 'em.
Tad tricky to get it in enough volume to be commercially
considered though.
NM It rots, too - even the heartwood. Just very slowly.

Very, /very/ slowly. Long enough so that you'd never have to replace
your own work.

My (limited) observation is that sapwood rots in about a decade in
fertile alkaline loam, but even a 2" yew branch has a considerable
core of heartwood. I have seen rotten yew heartwood, but have no
idea how long it had been there ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:153271

martin wrote:

On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 12:40:29 +0100, (sw) wrote:

Jonathan Ward wrote:

In article ,
says...

Chris Hogg wrote:


my conscience twinges when I remember that concrete is extremely
environmentally unsound.

Why? This is the first I've heard of it.

As I understand the matter, it's because cement requires relatively
large amounts of energy to burn the lime/chalk and again to transport
the result, especially if it's bought as ready-mix (I doubt concrete
post manufacturers do this, though).
Wood is better :-)

because it's cut down in 3rd world rain forests? ;-)

Our fence posts were/are nice native larch, cut down in its prime to
permit the (some) broadleave reforestation of all those welsh
hillsides... :-)

regards
sarah


--
Waist deep, neck deep
We'll be drowning before too long
We're neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the damned fools keep yelling to push on

martin wrote:

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 11:35:39 +0100, (sw) wrote:

martin wrote:

On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 12:40:29 +0100, (sw) wrote:


[-]

As I understand the matter, it's because cement requires relatively
large amounts of energy to burn the lime/chalk and again to transport
the result, especially if it's bought as ready-mix (I doubt concrete
post manufacturers do this, though).
Wood is better :-)

because it's cut down in 3rd world rain forests? ;-)

Our fence posts were/are nice native larch, cut down in its prime to
permit the (some) broadleave reforestation of all those welsh
hillsides... :-)

I expected that :-)

and it walked all the way to your garden :-)

Wish it did, and could dig its own holes into the bargain...

regards
sarah


--
Waist deep, neck deep
We'll be drowning before too long
We're neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the damned fools keep yelling to push on

"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
What is the best way to stop wooden fence posts rotting below ground
level? My understanding is that keeping them out of contact with the
soil helps considerably (i.e. by setting them in concrete), but would
wrapping the bases in polythene make things better or worse (allowing
for some drainage at the base to let water out)?


--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net

martin wrote:

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 13:27:41 +0100, (sw) wrote:

martin wrote:

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 12:00:03 +0100, (sw) wrote:

[-]

Our fence posts were/are nice native larch, cut down in its prime to
permit the (some) broadleave reforestation of all those welsh
hillsides... :-)

I expected that :-)

and it walked all the way to your garden :-)

Wish it did, and could dig its own holes into the bargain...

LOL You'd make a fortune with posts like that.

Another *useful* thing GM could do for us. ;-)

posts with little legs and sprouting perfect roses when in place?

Sapient pearwood -- now there's a thought, but it would be wasted on a
fence...

I'd thought of something like David's leylandii... plant the seedling,
it grows fast to maximum height of about 9' and 6" diameter, is
tap-rooted rather than broad, shallow roots (less competition for the
beds/damage to foundations/whatever). When they reach the desired
height/diameter, simply sprinkle the magic powder/speak a harsh word or
whatever, and they die. Trim off the branches and you've got a row of
fence posts.


regards
sarah



--
Waist deep, neck deep
We'll be drowning before too long
We're neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the damned fools keep yelling to push on

martin wrote:

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 13:27:41 +0100, (sw) wrote:

martin wrote:

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 12:00:03 +0100, (sw) wrote:

[-]

Our fence posts were/are nice native larch, cut down in its prime to
permit the (some) broadleave reforestation of all those welsh
hillsides... :-)

I expected that :-)

and it walked all the way to your garden :-)

Wish it did, and could dig its own holes into the bargain...

LOL You'd make a fortune with posts like that.

Another *useful* thing GM could do for us. ;-)

posts with little legs and sprouting perfect roses when in place?

Sapient pearwood -- now there's a thought, but it would be wasted on a
fence...

I'd thought of something like David's leylandii... plant the seedling,
it grows fast to maximum height of about 9' and 6" diameter, is
tap-rooted rather than broad, shallow roots (less competition for the
beds/damage to foundations/whatever). When they reach the desired
height/diameter, simply sprinkle the magic powder/speak a harsh word or
whatever, and they die. Trim off the branches and you've got a row of
fence posts.


regards
sarah



--
Waist deep, neck deep
We'll be drowning before too long
We're neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the damned fools keep yelling to push on