"Franz Heymann" wrote in
:

http://www.soilassociation.org/web/s...hatisorganic.h
tml

That URL says that the word "organic" is a legally protected word, but
I have not found a definition of that word in that URL.

Franz


Franz, perhaps we could keep discussion of this topic to one thread?

That way those of us who have seen this weary discussion worked through
here several times before can more easily choose to skip it this time if we
want to.

Victoria

"Victoria Clare" wrote in message
.218...
"Franz Heymann" wrote in
:

http://www.soilassociation.org/web/s...hatisorganic.h
tml

That URL says that the word "organic" is a legally protected word, but
I have not found a definition of that word in that URL.

Franz


Franz, perhaps we could keep discussion of this topic to one thread?

That way those of us who have seen this weary discussion worked through
here several times before can more easily choose to skip it this time if
we
want to.

Sorry, Victoria, but it was not I who introduced the word "Sodium
Bicarbonate" in this thread.
You may not believe it, but I am genuinely trying to find out what organic
gardening is about. I have been trying for the best part of twenty years
now, and I continue to come up against the old hoary paradoxes and
half-definitions whenever someone tries to help me.

Franz

Franz Heymann wrote:

"martin" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:31:00 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Jim W" wrote in message
news:1g3ow39.570hvv1e52og6N%00senetnospamtodayta@ macunlimited.net...

[snip]

There's some evidence that Sodium bicarb inhibhits mildew groth on
plants so might be useful for cleaning as well.

Not to be used by the organic gardeners?

What is organic?

I have not seen a rigorous definition yet. However, I understand, possibly
wrongly, that an organic chemical is a chemical which is produced
"artificially", whatever that may mean. If it means that an organic
chemical is one which is produced by a plant or an animal, then Sodium
Bicarbonate has to be excluded from the "organic" category.

http://www.soilassociation.org/web/s...isorganic.html


Thats the current UK legal definition at the URL given. Other laws
apply in other countries..! Its a long and tiring debate esp at this
time of night;-)

Individual definitions may vary.. Personally I think it changes as we
learn more about the world around us and ourselves.

And it depends on how far back you take it.. Is the manure you sourced
'organic' if the horses have been treated antibiotics and it therefore
contains traces? Probably not but its still allowed as an organic
fertiliser. How can black plastic be organic when its a man made
substance sourced from petroleum industry.. These and many more
questions you can ponder;-))
Is bordeaux mixture organic? No but its allowed as a final resort
measure.
As is sodium bicarb. BUT in this case its merely being used as a
disinfectant.. NOT as an orgnic control;-)

I suspect that Citrox may be useable as a domestic 'organic' control.
Though possibly not as a commercial one.

If in doubt ask the HDRA and or the soil association. You may not get
the answer you want..

Poor Franz!-)

Night all
/
Jim;-)

Victoria Clare wrote:

(Jim W) wrote in
news:1g3ow39.570hvv1e52og6N%00senetnospamtodayta@m acunlimited.net:

If you leave it over night (and plants out) and it looks a bit chilly
then fleece is always an option against very light frosts. You don;t
give a locaion so its hard to say if this would work.


Um, is your newsreader snipping sigs then?

Mine says:

"gardening on a north-facing hill
in South-East Cornwall"

We are getting regular light frosts at the moment.


Sorry.. My error; being over efficient again;-)

Then fleecy should do neecly!-)
/
Jim

"Jim W" wrote in message
news:1g3pxhl.cclid36ljze6N%00senetnospamtodayta@ma cunlimited.net...
Franz Heymann wrote:

"martin" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:31:00 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Jim W" wrote in message
news:1g3ow39.570hvv1e52og6N%00senetnospamtodayta@ macunlimited.net...

[snip]

There's some evidence that Sodium bicarb inhibhits mildew groth on
plants so might be useful for cleaning as well.

Not to be used by the organic gardeners?

What is organic?

I have not seen a rigorous definition yet. However, I understand,
possibly
wrongly, that an organic chemical is a chemical which is produced
"artificially", whatever that may mean. If it means that an organic
chemical is one which is produced by a plant or an animal, then Sodium
Bicarbonate has to be excluded from the "organic" category.


http://www.soilassociation.org/web/s...isorganic.html


Thats the current UK legal definition at the URL given.

This is the third time we have been steered to that URL. Sorry, I cannot
find a definition of the term "organic" as applied to gardening in it.
Perhaps I am stupid. I would appreciate it if someone would either extract
the definition from that URL and post it here, or let us know in which
section of the document the definition is stated.

Other laws
apply in other countries..!

Then that would prove quite indisputably that there is no such thing as a
scientific definition of the term "organic" as applied to gardening.

? Its a long and tiring debate esp at this
time of night;-)

Individual definitions may vary.. Personally I think it changes as we
learn more about the world around us and ourselves.

That is quite obvious.
So what is the scientifically accepted definition?

And it depends on how far back you take it..

There either is, or there is not a definition of the term which is valid
today. What is this definition?

Is the manure you sourced
'organic' if the horses have been treated antibiotics and it therefore
contains traces? Probably not but its still allowed as an organic
fertiliser. How can black plastic be organic when its a man made
substance sourced from petroleum industry.. These and many more
questions you can ponder;-))
Is bordeaux mixture organic? No but its allowed as a final resort
measure.

So is it all just a set of variably interpreted conventions and procedures?

As is sodium bicarb. BUT in this case its merely being used as a
disinfectant.. NOT as an orgnic control;-)

Is its use an organic process or is it not?
If I can use Sodium Bicarbonate in gardening, can I use Calcium Phosphate?

I suspect that Citrox may be useable as a domestic 'organic' control.
Though possibly not as a commercial one.

So is its use an organic procedure or not? And which other chemicals might I
use as a domestic organic control?
Actually I would prefer it that the new term "domestic organic control" is
not introduced until there is some more certainty about the definitino of
plain "organic".

If in doubt ask the HDRA and or the soil association. You may not get
the answer you want..

Since I doubt if anyone will actually provide an answer to my problem, I
propose to cease asking questions in this thread after my present session on
the computer.

Franz

Franz

"Victoria Clare" wrote in message
. 240.11...
(Jim W) wrote in
news:1g3npjw.1oq3xxb1tkuif4N%00senetnospamtodayta@ macunlimited.net:

Victoria Clare wrote:

I had a bad mildew problem in my greenhouse this year :-(


Jeyes or if you don't like that then Citrox. You might also want to
consider a good general clean of surfaces with water/detergent as a
primary clean.

Oh good - I have plenty of Jeyes, as it was recommended to me to clean the
inside of the GH and the various surfaces.

What sort of dilution would be appropriate for using it on the soil?

Victoria
--
It used to give the dilution rates for a whole range of garden uses on the
tin. There has been some discussion recently about its formulation,
aparently not now the same in response to EU legislation Anyone know the
facts?
--
Charlie, gardening in Cornwall.
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs)

gardening on a north-facing hill
in South-East Cornwall
--

In article , Janet Baraclough
writes
The message 5
from Victoria Clare contains these words:

I had a bad mildew problem in my greenhouse this year :-(

I don't really want to cart all the soil out of the main bed and replace it
though.

Can anyone recommend a fungicidal drench or something that might stop the
problem recurring?

Empty the GH, scrub it out, leave the door and vents wide open to let
frost in.

Janet.



I filled a garden sprayer (a big one) with a solution as directed on the
can and then sprayed all the inside of the cleared out greenhouse
including all the corners and under the wooden slats on the benches.
Then I left it and put in a sulphur candle, after that it was hosed
inside to clean out any chemical residue and left fir a week before
putting back clean cuttings and potting up outside any that had been in
there.

The sprayer if put on a thin direct jet really does have some power to
get into the wood and crevices.
..

I'm hoping this will get the dreaded red spider mite .............



--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:


"Victoria Clare" wrote in message
.218...

Franz, perhaps we could keep discussion of this topic to one thread?

That way those of us who have seen this weary discussion worked through
here several times before can more easily choose to skip it this time if
we
want to.

Sorry, Victoria, but it was not I who introduced the word "Sodium
Bicarbonate" in this thread.

You're responsible for your own behaviour; stop passing the buck.

It should be perfectly possible for someone to mention sodium
bicarbonate, or anything else, without you hijacking yet another thread
for your favourite soap box tirades. Not content with picking on
individuals you're now being rude to the whole group.

Don't you get it, Franz? With every day that passes, an increasing
number of posters express their annoyance with your behaviour. It's in
your own interest to pull in your neck and stop inflicting unwelcome
repetitive posts on the rest of the group; because if you won't, they
will do it for you. We've had past experience of a poster trying to
dominate the group with his own obsessions and spoiling discussions for
everyone. There's a critical point at which such a poster enters so many
killfiles, that he's effectively excluded from conversations.

Janet.

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...

[snip]

You are behind the times. I have now for the fifth time indicated that I am
sick and tired of this miserable topic.

If, as you hinted in the contribution from you which I snipped in its
entirety, you might feel inclined to killfile me, then please feel free to
go ahead.

Franz

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...

[snip]

You are behind the times. I have now for the fifth time indicated that I am
sick and tired of this miserable topic.

Five? !!!!! Your endless self-preoccupation knows no limits. Those
"indications" are not in this thread, and like Victoria, I've stopped
reading threads which you've already cluttered up with boring
repetitions. That was the point of her complaint, remember?

Janet.

On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 19:15:17 GMT, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...

[snip]

You are behind the times. I have now for the fifth time indicated that I am
sick and tired of this miserable topic.

Five? !!!!! Your endless self-preoccupation knows no limits.

Pot Kettle Black?

Those
"indications" are not in this thread, and like Victoria, I've stopped
reading threads which you've already cluttered up with boring
repetitions.

It seems not.
--
Martin

In article , Janet Tweedy
writes

I'm hoping this will get the dreaded red spider mite .............

I'm getting some success with the biological control. It feels as if
nothing is happening, and there's very little sign of the predators, but
a few weeks later everything seems to have much healthier leaves.


--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these
words:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...

[snip]

You are behind the times. I have now for the fifth time indicated that
I am
sick and tired of this miserable topic.

Five? !!!!! Your endless self-preoccupation knows no limits.

Yes. Folks of your ilk seem to wish to prolong the topic beyond its
eat-by-date

Those
"indications" are not in this thread, and like Victoria, I've stopped
reading threads which you've already cluttered up with boring
repetitions.

How come you are writing quite unnecessarily to this thread?

That was the point of her complaint, remember?

May I suggest that you drop the subject once and for all?
And remember, you are very welcome to killfile me. I would recommend it,
and indeed, I look forward to it with keen anticipation.

Franz

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these
words:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...

[snip]

You are behind the times. I have now for the fifth time indicated that
I am
sick and tired of this miserable topic.

Five? !!!!! Your endless self-preoccupation knows no limits.

Yes. Folks of your ilk seem to wish to prolong the topic beyond its
eat-by-date

Those
"indications" are not in this thread, and like Victoria, I've stopped
reading threads which you've already cluttered up with boring
repetitions.

How come you are writing quite unnecessarily to this thread?

That was the point of her complaint, remember?

May I suggest that you drop the subject once and for all?
And remember, you are very welcome to killfile me. I would recommend it,
and indeed, I look forward to it with keen anticipation.

Franz

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these
words:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...

[snip]

You are behind the times. I have now for the fifth time indicated that
I am
sick and tired of this miserable topic.

Five? !!!!! Your endless self-preoccupation knows no limits.

Yes. Folks of your ilk seem to wish to prolong the topic beyond its
eat-by-date

Those
"indications" are not in this thread, and like Victoria, I've stopped
reading threads which you've already cluttered up with boring
repetitions.

How come you are writing quite unnecessarily to this thread?

That was the point of her complaint, remember?

May I suggest that you drop the subject once and for all?
And remember, you are very welcome to killfile me. I would recommend it,
and indeed, I look forward to it with keen anticipation.

Franz