Well I say clay soil, but really it is just clay. I'd probably be very
happy if I was a potter, but for growing veg I am finding it a bit of a
challenge.
My 6m x 9m veg plot is very heavy clay and the land has been unused for
some years. Last summer I dug out all the weeds and rubbish (a skip
full of rubble too). I started to double dig the plot but gave up 1/3
the way through and just single dug the rest (starting with a mattock
for the really tough areas).
I then put 2 tonnes of fresh horse manure on it and left it until
Christmas at which point I was fortunate enough to borrow a rotovator
and gave the ground a good going over.
By Easter when I came to plant the ground had compacted again.
Undeterred I carried on. In went the spuds & shallots (which look to be
doing well) and as the ground is too firm to "rake to a fine tilth" I
used a bulb planter to remove little cores of clay, fill with compost
and plant the carrots and parsnips. Everything else is starting life
under glass and being transplanted out when established.

A happy glance over the plot shows my spuds are doing well so I have
earthed them up. My peas and runner beans are doing well so they have
canes and nets to help them along. My carrots and parsnips (the veggies
I am most looking forward to) don't look to have done much and the weeds
are starting to take hold in what should be nice uniform rows. So out
comes the hoe. Problem is the ground is too hard to hoe. On top of
this some rabbit has helped himself to my brocolli and brussel sprouts
(ignoring the pac choi that I have plenty of and I can re-grow quickly
- even though that is planted closer to the fence just in case I had
problems with rabbits) and I think a few birds have been flying past the
bird feeder and tucking in to some tasty shoots.

The rabbit I can sort out (have put some better fencing in), the birds I
can (hopefully) deter. But the most important thing, my soil, is a
little more difficult to deal with.

So all this rambling for a simple question....

What is going to do most good for my garden - a couple of tonnes of
horse much every year, or this year should i try a couple of tonnes of
sharp sand in the hope it will make the soil less claggy and more sandy?
Or is there something else I could try to add?
How long might it take to get the soil workable?

I was thinking of raised beds filled with nice compost (next door has
gave up on his veg plot and now has nice raised beds) but the plot
slopes so it would be a bit too challenging for me.

I am also thinking of buying a rotovator (i I can find the 400 quid the
look to cost) so that I can rotovate it 3 or 4 times a year - including
just before planting. Would that help?

And on a related note - I am putting a path the length of my garden to
my green house and so will be lifting a load of turf. The turf is
firmly backed with some top quality clay. If I shove it on my compost
heap will nature do its work or will I still have strips of turf in
there at the end of the year?


Thanks for any advice.


Mike

"Mike & Karen" wrote in message
...

I was thinking of raised beds filled with nice compost (next door has
gave up on his veg plot and now has nice raised beds) but the plot
slopes so it would be a bit too challenging for me.

A sloping site is brilliant for raised beds so long as you're not talking
North Face of the Eiger...

We had dreadful problems with heavy clay and poor drainage. The raised beds
were dug-in up-slope and raised above ground downslope. A gap was left
between the timbers and the clay and this was filled with 3/4 chippings to
divert the floods around the beds.
It has been possible to grow whatever we fancy ever since - just adjust the
soil in the bed to suit your crop. Since the soil in the beds has never been
trodden on so you can literally make planting pockets with your fingers. And
the raised bed frames support polythene for cloches or bird netting -
whatever the crop desires.
Do it! The little bit of effort up-front is reclaimed over and over again in
the years that follow.

"Mike & Karen" wrote in message
...
| Well I say clay soil, but really it is just clay. I'd probably be very
| happy if I was a potter, but for growing veg I am finding it a bit of a
| challenge.


snip...

When I moved in twenty odd years ago I also had the problem of yellow clay,
but now the ground is dark and grows some really good stuff.

The way I tackled it was to concentrate on one small area at a time, as this
seemed a waste of space I decided that the crop that would help the most was
potatoes. Potatoes require you to dig the ground once and then to set
furrows, earth up and then dig out when you need them. So potatoes went
into the spare space - we cooked them every which way that year!

As we had a sugar beet factory a few miles away I had 6 tonnes of sandy soil
delivered to dig into the smaller area. We then put lettuces, radish,
tomatoes, runner beans and beetroot into it. All the weeds, grass cutting
and waste products were composted ready for next year.

At the end of the season I had workable ground on the larger piece and
pleasant soil on the smaller piece. The next season we moved to another
area and so on.

Dig lots of compost into the ground and eventually you will manageable soil,
which will grow a lot of different crops to perfection, and who can resist
the taste of runner beans that were growing on the plant 30 minutes before
you eat them?

Treat the ground, and your back, with care and you will be rewarded.

Best of luck
Steve

In article , Mike &
Karen writes
Well I say clay soil, but really it is just clay. I'd probably be very
happy if I was a potter, but for growing veg I am finding it a bit of a
challenge.

In this group, some topics appear with monotonous regularity.
This is one of them. When a topic comes up frequently like this one,
you will find that a lot of regular posters will not bother to
discuss it 'yet again'. They will just inwardly groan and pass on to
the next topic. Consequently, any current discussion the topic is
likely to be incomplete
But, do not despair
We have a faq (frequently asked question), covering the points made
in previous discussions. Our faqs can be found by following this link
www.tmac.clara.co.uk/urgring/

Also, for the benefit of people new to this group, and to save them
from receiving replies which they may consider to be impolite, we have
a thread entitled:

'abc for newcomers to uk.rec.gardening'.

It is posted once a week and should appear on your newsreader.
Please read it. It will point you in the direction of:

1. our faqs (frequently asked questions)
2. our charter
3. netiquette and other bits and bobs
--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason, put ransoms
at jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see

In article , Stephen Williams
writes

The way I tackled it was to concentrate on one small area at a time, as this
seemed a waste of space I decided that the crop that would help the most was
potatoes. Potatoes require you to dig the ground once and then to set
furrows, earth up and then dig out when you need them. So potatoes went
into the spare space - we cooked them every which way that year!

When I was making a new bed, I laid a whole lot of seed potatoes on the
(de-turfed but undug) ground, then covered them with 6 inches of
compost. Got a good crop and some workeable ground for next year. Don't
know how well it would work on pure clay s opposed to very clay-y soil,
but could be an option when you run out of energy to do anything more
elaborate.


--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

In article , Mike &
Karen writes
And on a related note - I am putting a path the length of my garden to my green
house and so will be lifting a load of turf. The turf is firmly backed with
some top quality clay. If I shove it on my compost heap will nature do its work
or will I still have strips of turf in there at the end of the year?

Nature will do its work. Might take a full year to do it, but it will.
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

The message
from Mike & Karen contains these words:

What is going to do most good for my garden - a couple of tonnes of
horse much every year, or this year should i try a couple of tonnes of
sharp sand in the hope it will make the soil less claggy and more sandy?
Or is there something else I could try to add?

I wouldn't rotovate heavy clay. As you've discovered, doing it in wet
winter weather does no good, and it can worsen the problem by leaving a
water-resistant clay pan below the depth of the rotovator blades, so
your plants end up with shallow root systems sitting in water..a bad
combination.

Adding as much humus material as possible is a good thing. Worms will
take it down into the soil, and their tiny tunnels also admit air and
help water drain. If you spread the horse muck in winter then cover the
patch with an old tarp or carpet or flattened cardboard packing cartons.
The worms will work quicker under the shelter, the rain will not leach
so much, and weeds won't germinate. Also, start compost heaps and
collect a s much free material as you can to fill them (sacks of leaves
lawn clippings and pet bedding from neighbours, bracken nettles and
rosebay willow from waste land, seaweed).

On the hard dry spaces between rows, where you're having difficulty
working a hoe, try spreading the cuttings from your lawn or any other
plant mulch you can get hold of. It smother weeds, stops a hard
soil-crust forming, and the worms will take it down to enrich the soil.
Bales of spoiled straw are usually very cheap.

A larger sharp grit would be a better additive than sand imho, because
clay is already composed of very fine particles. I would just scatter it
on top; plantings will gradually move it downward. If you have a quarry
or gravel pit nearby, it's worth asking what they have available that's
cheap.

Stack the lifted turf, green side away from light; it will make
valuable humus.

Janet.

"Mike & Karen" wrote in message
...
Well I say clay soil, but really it is just clay. I'd probably be very
happy if I was a potter, but for growing veg I am finding it a bit of a
challenge.
My 6m x 9m veg plot is very heavy clay and the land has been unused for
some years.

Sniped.

So all this rambling for a simple question....

Far be it for me to judge.


What is going to do most good for my garden - a couple of tonnes of
horse much every year, or this year should i try a couple of tonnes of
sharp sand in the hope it will make the soil less claggy and more sandy?
Or is there something else I could try to add?

Gypsum (from builders merchants) (plaster that is 100% gypsum)
1 bag should be enough for that space.

How long might it take to get the soil workable?

ooh it's quick.

Might, say, ... overnight be fast enough?

Patrick

Hello
Yep, I agree with potatoes. Grew them in one are a few years ago and
the soil is still better than the rest of my small garden.
Also, sand. I added layer over the whole area, then just raked it in;
no digging.
(The king eds tasted great).
I'm experimenting with chipped wood bark. Keeps the weeds down and
starts to "compost" after a year. So far, so good.

AJ
Staffs.

On 5/10/04 12:08 PM, in article , "tuin man"
wrote:


"Mike & Karen" wrote in message
...
Well I say clay soil, but really it is just clay. I'd probably be very
happy if I was a potter, but for growing veg I am finding it a bit of a
challenge.
My 6m x 9m veg plot is very heavy clay and the land has been unused for
some years.

Sniped.

So all this rambling for a simple question....

Far be it for me to judge.


What is going to do most good for my garden - a couple of tonnes of
horse much every year, or this year should i try a couple of tonnes of
sharp sand in the hope it will make the soil less claggy and more sandy?
Or is there something else I could try to add?

Gypsum (from builders merchants) (plaster that is 100% gypsum)
1 bag should be enough for that space.

How long might it take to get the soil workable?

ooh it's quick.

Might, say, ... overnight be fast enough?

Patrick


Patrick
Adding gypsum solves a clay problem? How does this work or did I miss
something?
Gary
Fort Langley BC
Canada

To reply please remove yoursocks...

g'day mike & karen,

have you considered raised beds that way you can grow you veges
without having to worry too much about amending the clay, and you will
be growing in a 'no-dig'; 'no-weed' scenario.

i have pics on my garden page to show how i do my gardens wouldn't
garden anyother way now.

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gardenlen1/

"gary davis" wrote in message
...
On 5/10/04 12:08 PM, in article , "tuin
man"
wrote:


"Mike & Karen" wrote in message
...
Well I say clay soil, but really it is just clay. I'd probably be very
happy if I was a potter, but for growing veg I am finding it a bit of a
challenge.
My 6m x 9m veg plot is very heavy clay and the land has been unused for
some years.

Sniped.

So all this rambling for a simple question....

Far be it for me to judge.


What is going to do most good for my garden - a couple of tonnes of
horse much every year, or this year should i try a couple of tonnes of
sharp sand in the hope it will make the soil less claggy and more
sandy?
Or is there something else I could try to add?

Gypsum (from builders merchants) (plaster that is 100% gypsum)
1 bag should be enough for that space.

How long might it take to get the soil workable?

ooh it's quick.

Might, say, ... overnight be fast enough?

Patrick


Patrick
Adding gypsum solves a clay problem?

In as far as I know, it de-activates the salt content which is mostly
responsible for the stodginess.
I only ever had to apply it once.
The site in question was due to be turfed. 400sq m.
It had been compacted by heavy machinery (buldozers, dumper trucks,
excavtor... the usual).
The builders had incorporated a state of the art drainage system. I've never
seen such thought and care go into one.
Alas, the water couldn't get to it because the clay blocked the membrane and
mini ponds appeared.
But even when I eased this problem in select areas, the water just would
not leave the clay.
I decided to at least tackle the compaction by double digging . I would
shove the shovel into the ground and try to turn a spit that just wouldn't
let go. Then I'd try to move but each step was a contest with the clay. When
trying to extract a simple obstruction that might catch my rotovator tines,
it was like I was trying to excavte a mountain out of the ground. On one
occassion, I yanked out a broken paving slab and proceed to throw it towards
my wheelbarrow, which was foward and to the right of me. As you might have
guessed, I had become one with the slab and so when I flung my arms out to
throw it, my upper body went with it. My lower body remained stuck to the
clay around my feet and I landed arms outstretched, slapped face down into
the muck.
That evening I applied the gypsum.... about 2 bags to what I had dug and one
to the remainder.
No problems the next day. Rotovated as soon as it was all double dug and had
a nice tilt to rack . It's a lovely smooth lawn now.

Patrick
How does this work or did I miss
something?
Gary
Fort Langley BC
Canada

To reply please remove yoursocks...

Patrick
Adding gypsum solves a clay problem? How does this work or did I miss
something?
Same way as lime - but it doesn't alter the ph.
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting

Mike & Karen wrote:
Well I say clay soil, but really it is just clay. I'd probably be very
happy if I was a potter, but for growing veg I am finding it a bit of a
challenge.

I feel your pain.

If you have lots of money and zero patience (like me) then just dig the
whole lot up and start again.

Clay is wonderfully rich in nutrients, but if your garden was anything
like mine (basically like one big potters wheel full of solid,
terracotta-red clay) then it's more hassle than it's worth.

I've just excavated over 30 tonnes from the front garden, and that was
just the central area; the borders are next, but I have to find a
temporary home for certain shrubs first. I dug right down to the
hardcore (about 3ft). I've backfilled about 30% of it so far with
grit/aggregate 50:50, then topsoil. For lawn areas I'm doing 2ft
drainage followed by 1ft lawn mix topsoil, and for border areas I'm
doing 1.5ft drainage followed by 1.5ft border mix topsoil.

I was lucky with utility pipework (only one, which is telephone cable),
but the clay was the least of my problems; mostly it was whole breeze
blocks and empty cement bags etc. - basically all the stuff the builders
thought I'd never find.

The hire of digging equipment, skips and labourers has set me back a lot
of money, but it'll be worth it to get the whole thing done in just a
couple of months. In fact it would've been finished long before now,
were it not for the fact that I insist on being on-site while the work
is going on, but I work overseas for weeks at a time, so that puts the
brakes on it now and then.

There'll be before/after/during photos up when it's done ... soon I hope.

There is one small verge area that's already done (well it's about 6
inches too shallow). I planted it up anyway, with salad crops, and even
though I left it late in the season (June) they've all come up well. At
the end of the season, when there's nothing left, I'll dig it over and
top it up to the correct hight.

Then I'll have the job of basically establishing a new front garden.

--
[H]omer

Problem with cats in your garden?
Try this: http://img169.exs.cx/img169/6382/kitten8va.jpg