On Wed, 12 May 2004, James Fidell wrote:

Water profusely. (Your vine should be planted outside the greenhouse,
BTW, and be guided in, using something soft or which will push aside as
the stem grows in diameter.)

Having watered profusely, water it again.

Interesting that the opposite often applies when growing grapes for
wine-making, in Europe at least. IIRC, irrigation is not allowed if the
vines are to be used for a "quality" wine (eg. Appellation Controlle or
VDQS as opposed to Vin de Pays or Vin de Table, in France) with a few
rare exceptions (experimental vineyards being one).

I wonder if it's something to do with limited yields?

No, it's to do with the concentration of the juice.

--
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Internet: | writing from |
| Fidonet: David Rance 2:252/110 | Caversham, |
| BBS: telnet://mesnil.demon.co.uk | Reading, UK |
+-------------------------------------------------------+

On Thu, 13 May 2004 09:12:19 +0100, David Rance said:

] On Wed, 12 May 2004, James Fidell wrote:
][]
] Interesting that the opposite often applies when growing grapes for
] wine-making, in Europe at least. IIRC, irrigation is not allowed if the
] vines are to be used for a "quality" wine (eg. Appellation Controlle or
] VDQS as opposed to Vin de Pays or Vin de Table, in France) with a few
] rare exceptions (experimental vineyards being one).
]
] I wonder if it's something to do with limited yields?
]
] No, it's to do with the concentration of the juice.
]

That's right of course: stressed vines produce smaller grapes with more
sugar content. Same as with old vines, which is why the INAO (governs
french AOCs) doesn't allow very young wines in most appellations.

However in many climates, e.g. California or Oz, watering is required to
produce fruit. It's just too hot, otherwise.

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

On Thu, 13 May 2004, Emery Davis wrote:

] No, it's to do with the concentration of the juice.
]

That's right of course: stressed vines produce smaller grapes with more
sugar content. Same as with old vines, which is why the INAO (governs
french AOCs) doesn't allow very young wines in most appellations.

However in many climates, e.g. California or Oz, watering is required to
produce fruit. It's just too hot, otherwise.

Normally watering is not required for an established vine because it
sends its roots as deep and wide as it needs in order to find moisture.
But I have no experience of vines in California or Oz. :-)

--
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Internet: | writing from |
| Fidonet: David Rance 2:252/110 | Caversham, |
| BBS: telnet://mesnil.demon.co.uk | Reading, UK |
+-------------------------------------------------------+

VivienB wrote:

Wait until it really gets its roots down - you will be able to see the
growth from one day to the next easily, you won't have to wait a week!

Regards, VivienB

Nice. I'm growing Hamburgh I think. A red dessert grape.

Kev,

On Fri, 14 May 2004 11:02:48 +0100, David Rance said:

] On Thu, 13 May 2004, Emery Davis wrote:
]
] ] No, it's to do with the concentration of the juice.
] ]
]
] That's right of course: stressed vines produce smaller grapes with more
] sugar content. Same as with old vines, which is why the INAO (governs
] french AOCs) doesn't allow very young wines in most appellations.
]
] However in many climates, e.g. California or Oz, watering is required to
] produce fruit. It's just too hot, otherwise.
]
] Normally watering is not required for an established vine because it
] sends its roots as deep and wide as it needs in order to find moisture.
] But I have no experience of vines in California or Oz. :-)
]

Yes, that's true enough. My post was a bit sloppy. Can't remember the
exact figure off the top, but I think the roots can go down 6 m with no problem.
(Or is it 20? anyway, a bit of a dig!) I should have written: sufficient fruit to
be commercially viable. In CA and Oz, it is common to use fairly young vines
(in the former they are routinely replaced at 20 years) and irrigate for maximum
yield; then the juice is concentrated via reverse osmosis, and brewed with oak tea-bags.
This all yields a predictable enough result (aside from the headache) at the local Tesco.

Still, some irrigation is required in the hot climates to produce enough fruit to
bother at all.

Just read that growers in Champagne are buying land in the South Downs for
vineyards. Apparently it is similar to Champagne (the region) and the cost is
about 1%.

-E


--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

Emery Davis wrote:


Just read that growers in Champagne are buying land in the South Downs for
vineyards. Apparently it is similar to Champagne (the region) and the cost is
about 1%.


Oh yes. It's getting quite good down here for grapes.

Kev,

The message
from James Fidell contains these words:
In article ,
Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

Water profusely. (Your vine should be planted outside the greenhouse,
BTW, and be guided in, using something soft or which will push aside as
the stem grows in diameter.)

Having watered profusely, water it again.

Interesting that the opposite often applies when growing grapes for
wine-making, in Europe at least. IIRC, irrigation is not allowed if the
vines are to be used for a "quality" wine (eg. Appellation Controlle or
VDQS as opposed to Vin de Pays or Vin de Table, in France) with a few
rare exceptions (experimental vineyards being one).

I wonder if it's something to do with limited yields?

More likely sugar concentration.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from Tim Nicholson contains these words:

On Tue, 11 May 2004 20:53:03 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:


Water profusely. (Your vine should be planted outside the greenhouse,
BTW, and be guided in, using something soft or which will push aside as
the stem grows in diameter.)

Having watered profusely, water it again.

That's interesting - I'd heard this somewhere before, but no-one was
able to tell me 'why' I should plant the vine outside. As we were
building a new greenhouse, I figured the ground inside (once you got
below the 3 inches of gravel and the anti-weed, water-permeable
membrane) was likely to be the same as that outside, and as anything
above ground was going to be inside the greenhouse anyway, it probably
didn't make much difference. So my vine is planted IN the greenhouse
(simply to make it easier to apply water to the root system near the
stem/trunk). Is this a major error?

In the opinion of most of the pundits, yes. Water tends to drain
straight downwards, with only a little sideways wandering, and the soil
under a greenhouse is quite soon very dry. Copious watering inside the
greenhouse leads to high humidity and an increased risk of moulds.

If you can't move the vine, you can persuade the roots to move
themselves by watering outside the greenhouse.

I'll be installing an auto watering system in the next couple of
weeks, can anyone tell me how much water a decent size vine needs. I
intend set the system to water twice as day as I do now, but I'm not
sure about the amount. At the moment I give the vine a good sized
watering can - about 1.5 gals? - at each watering. Is that enough? The
plant seems healthy, and no signs of any problems so far.

I would say that wasn't enough - depending on the size of the vine.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

On Mon, 17 May 2004, Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

I'll be installing an auto watering system in the next couple of
weeks, can anyone tell me how much water a decent size vine needs. I
intend set the system to water twice as day as I do now, but I'm not
sure about the amount. At the moment I give the vine a good sized
watering can - about 1.5 gals? - at each watering. Is that enough? The
plant seems healthy, and no signs of any problems so far.

I would say that wasn't enough - depending on the size of the vine.

Not true. As I said before, an established vine does not need watering.
A vine needs watering only in the first year or two of its life because
the roots will not be established. Once established a vine can look
after itself because the roots go far and wide.

I have several hundred vines. I never water the established vines. The
crop yield is more dependent on whether we have late frosts or not!

--
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Internet: | writing from |
| Fidonet: David Rance 2:252/110 | Caversham, |
| BBS: telnet://mesnil.demon.co.uk | Reading, UK |
+-------------------------------------------------------+

The message
from David Rance contains these words:

On Mon, 17 May 2004, Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

I'll be installing an auto watering system in the next couple of
weeks, can anyone tell me how much water a decent size vine needs. I
intend set the system to water twice as day as I do now, but I'm not
sure about the amount. At the moment I give the vine a good sized
watering can - about 1.5 gals? - at each watering. Is that enough? The
plant seems healthy, and no signs of any problems so far.

I would say that wasn't enough - depending on the size of the vine.

Not true. As I said before, an established vine does not need watering.
A vine needs watering only in the first year or two of its life because
the roots will not be established. Once established a vine can look
after itself because the roots go far and wide.

I quote from an earlier post from the questioner:

# That's all quite handy stuff. My grape has just flowered for the first
# time. I planted it late last summer so only saw lots of leaves and by
# heck it grew fast (1 inch a week). It's growing fast again and now there
# are lots of little flowers on it, and I'm crossing my fingers for what
# might happen next.



I have several hundred vines. I never water the established vines. The
crop yield is more dependent on whether we have late frosts or not!

Hardly matters if you have a million vines. four gallons of water a day
are not enough for a young vine.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

Not true. As I said before, an established vine does not need
watering. A vine needs watering only in the first year or two of its
life because the roots will not be established. Once established a
vine can look after itself because the roots go far and wide.


and more importantly deep!

pk

Hello Nick et al

I wouldn't worry too much about having planted inside the greenhouse.
I have two vines (one swee****er, one muscat) both inside.
The roots are, however, on the shady side of the greenhouse
in the lee of a garage with all the damp, cool soil under that to call its
own.

They send roots down a long way.
I watered generously the first year or two
but after that only when the soil looked particularly dry.
Planted with roots outside would perhaps save a bit of work
but I wouldn't bother relocating.
Perhaps put a few roof slates round the root area.
I also have a couple of outdoor swee****er vines against a south-facing
wall
and these get no more water than the rest of the fruit and veg
and produce a few kilos each.
What vines don't like in my experience is too much damp on the leaves
so I prefer watering only at ground level.


Best regards from Ray

On Mon, 17 May 2004, PK wrote:

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

No he didn't! I did! ;-)

Not true. As I said before, an established vine does not need
watering. A vine needs watering only in the first year or two of its
life because the roots will not be established. Once established a
vine can look after itself because the roots go far and wide.

and more importantly deep!

That's what I meant! :-)

--
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Internet: | writing from |
| Fidonet: David Rance 2:252/110 | Caversham, |
| BBS: telnet://mesnil.demon.co.uk | Reading, UK |
+-------------------------------------------------------+