John Edgar wrote:

What exactly does "truly repeat flowering" mean and why doesn't my
Alister Stella Gray rose do what DA roses say it should?

I think I prefer the term remontant flowering ie. flowering, then if
conditions are right, producing new growth that subsequently flowers.
Austins are quite right, it is a repeat or remontant flowering rose.
However, to compare it with modern repeat or perpetual flowering
climbers leads to disappointment. Depending upon weather conditions,
there can be a considerable gap between flower production - nothing
like the seeming perpetual flowering of many modern climbers.

Anyone else got one of these things and what does it do?

Not now, but I grew it about 30 years ago (bought it from David too)
and in some summers it had 3 or 4 flushes, which for this variety is
pretty good. If I was into growing roses today, it would still be
close to the top of my list despite its minor lapses in this respect.
The flowers are superbly formed and for the uninitiated, rich deep
yellow within, fading to paler at the edges. The fragrance is
wonderful on a warm, still day.

John, 'Alister Stella Gray' is a hybrid noisette, raised and
introduced towards the end of the19th. century. Like a fair number of
noisettes (the most famous being 'Marechal Niel'), it really needs a
nice, cosy sunny spot, preferably one that doesn't get much frost and
a good, rich fertile soil. Given masses of summer heat, it will
flower well and produce good subsequent flowers. During the fiercely
hot summer of 1976, my plant was almost constantly in flower and grew
with almost embarrassing vigour. The following year was much cooler
and it gave only a single flowering.

'Alister' takes a few years to get established and I wouldn't expect
to see a lot for the first 3 or 4 years. Mine took 6 to settle down
well and unfortunately was killed by the severe winter of 1981/2. It
is not the hardiest or most vigorous of roses. I think the only
noisette that still lives up to its promise is probably 'Mme. Alfred
Carriere', but that is a white with pink flushes. Despite being an
older variety, it is possibly more typical of modern climbers

There is also good reason to suspect that 'Alister', along with
'Gloire de Dijon' and 'Marechal Niel' have run out of steam. None of
these varieties are as good as they were - no doubt due to generations
of propping from a limited materials source. Roses do change, not
surprising when you consider that they all arise from a single plant -
the ultimate in mass-cloning. If a shoot with non-visible,
degenerative tendencies is propped, eventually many thousands will
enter the trade.

We saw this with the highly fragrant 'Ena Harkness' during the height
of HT popularity in the 1960's. It lost its scent. A single stem had
regressed to producing unscented flowers. That stem must have been
used for bud wood, giving 4 or 5 new plants. Those plants must have
also been used for stock purposes and in no time, hundreds, if not
thousands of unscented 'Ena Harkness' entered the trade. The
newspapers were full of it back in the late 60's. If I recall
correctly, Woolworths (infamous purveyors of wrapped bare-root roses)
struck it from their lists due to complaints about the lack of scent.
The comparatively scrawny grower - 'Josephine Bruce' was subsequently
promoted to centre stage as the fragrant red-red rose to grow.

Although I didn't make the connection at the time, I suspect the
mistake occurred at Wheatcroft Roses - Harry Wheatcroft himself told
me all about it and then went on to detail the efforts they made to
eradicate the unscented form and re-establish the original.
Wheatcrofts could not be blamed for this and nor can anyone be blamed
non-visible, degenerate forms of old roses entering the trade. Even
nowadays with their popularity well past its zenith, they are still
mass produced and mass production does lead to rogue plants.


Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:12:18 +0100, Dave Poole
wrote:

Thanks for this. Maybe I will stick with it for a couple more years,
but if it doesn't shape up I will complain to DA Roses again. It is in
a sunny spot, growing over our shed and our soil is very good. It may
get some frost, but not much. We live not too far from the south
coast.

John Edgar wrote:

What exactly does "truly repeat flowering" mean and why doesn't my
Alister Stella Gray rose do what DA roses say it should?

I think I prefer the term remontant flowering ie. flowering, then if
conditions are right, producing new growth that subsequently flowers.
Austins are quite right, it is a repeat or remontant flowering rose.
However, to compare it with modern repeat or perpetual flowering
climbers leads to disappointment. Depending upon weather conditions,
there can be a considerable gap between flower production - nothing
like the seeming perpetual flowering of many modern climbers.

Anyone else got one of these things and what does it do?

Not now, but I grew it about 30 years ago (bought it from David too)
and in some summers it had 3 or 4 flushes, which for this variety is
pretty good. If I was into growing roses today, it would still be
close to the top of my list despite its minor lapses in this respect.
The flowers are superbly formed and for the uninitiated, rich deep
yellow within, fading to paler at the edges. The fragrance is
wonderful on a warm, still day.

John, 'Alister Stella Gray' is a hybrid noisette, raised and
introduced towards the end of the19th. century. Like a fair number of
noisettes (the most famous being 'Marechal Niel'), it really needs a
nice, cosy sunny spot, preferably one that doesn't get much frost and
a good, rich fertile soil. Given masses of summer heat, it will
flower well and produce good subsequent flowers. During the fiercely
hot summer of 1976, my plant was almost constantly in flower and grew
with almost embarrassing vigour. The following year was much cooler
and it gave only a single flowering.

'Alister' takes a few years to get established and I wouldn't expect
to see a lot for the first 3 or 4 years. Mine took 6 to settle down
well and unfortunately was killed by the severe winter of 1981/2. It
is not the hardiest or most vigorous of roses. I think the only
noisette that still lives up to its promise is probably 'Mme. Alfred
Carriere', but that is a white with pink flushes. Despite being an
older variety, it is possibly more typical of modern climbers

There is also good reason to suspect that 'Alister', along with
'Gloire de Dijon' and 'Marechal Niel' have run out of steam. None of
these varieties are as good as they were - no doubt due to generations
of propping from a limited materials source. Roses do change, not
surprising when you consider that they all arise from a single plant -
the ultimate in mass-cloning. If a shoot with non-visible,
degenerative tendencies is propped, eventually many thousands will
enter the trade.

We saw this with the highly fragrant 'Ena Harkness' during the height
of HT popularity in the 1960's. It lost its scent. A single stem had
regressed to producing unscented flowers. That stem must have been
used for bud wood, giving 4 or 5 new plants. Those plants must have
also been used for stock purposes and in no time, hundreds, if not
thousands of unscented 'Ena Harkness' entered the trade. The
newspapers were full of it back in the late 60's. If I recall
correctly, Woolworths (infamous purveyors of wrapped bare-root roses)
struck it from their lists due to complaints about the lack of scent.
The comparatively scrawny grower - 'Josephine Bruce' was subsequently
promoted to centre stage as the fragrant red-red rose to grow.

Although I didn't make the connection at the time, I suspect the
mistake occurred at Wheatcroft Roses - Harry Wheatcroft himself told
me all about it and then went on to detail the efforts they made to
eradicate the unscented form and re-establish the original.
Wheatcrofts could not be blamed for this and nor can anyone be blamed
non-visible, degenerate forms of old roses entering the trade. Even
nowadays with their popularity well past its zenith, they are still
mass produced and mass production does lead to rogue plants.


Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November

John
In limine sapientiae

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:12:18 +0100, Dave Poole
wrote:


Although I didn't make the connection at the time, I suspect the
mistake occurred at Wheatcroft Roses - Harry Wheatcroft himself told
me all about it and then went on to detail the efforts they made to
eradicate the unscented form and re-establish the original.
Wheatcrofts could not be blamed for this and nor can anyone be blamed
non-visible, degenerate forms of old roses entering the trade. Even
nowadays with their popularity well past its zenith, they are still
mass produced and mass production does lead to rogue plants.

Hmmm.................it would be interesting if you could pin down the
dates for this. Wheatcroft Roses or Harry Wheatcroft and Sons? I was
working at HW & Sons during 1967/8/9 and I can't remember hearing
about this, though as a very junior employee I wouldn't hear the
management talk. The Ena Harkness I took to shows for them was
certainly fragrant. Dunno about what I was budding because we were
just issued every morning with bundles of budwood without flowers. It
was already well known then that Gloire de Dijon was a shadow of its
former self and it happened with Super Star soon after, though that
was soon superceded by better varieties in that colour range.
Rod

Weed my address to reply

http://website.lineone.net/~rodcraddock/index.html

wrote:

Hmmm.................it would be interesting if you could pin down the
dates for this. Wheatcroft Roses or Harry Wheatcroft and Sons? I was
working at HW & Sons during 1967/8/9 and I can't remember hearing
about this, though as a very junior employee I wouldn't hear the
management talk.

If I remember correctly, I was told this in the very early '70's when
Harry used to visit our summer shows. We ( I was plants manager for
Webbs at Wychbold at the time) used to put on a pretty impressive
summer show with Wheatcroft roses, Blackmore & Langdons incredible
show Begonias and Delphs, Wills Fuchsias and Fibrex for Pelargoniums,
Ferns and Ivies. Not exactly Chelsea, but a rather splendid effort
nonetheless.

Old Harry used to arrive - ever the showman, in white suit, panama and
white Rolls Royce. I took the opportunity to chat with him whenever I
could - he had so many fascinating tales to tell and relished the
opportunity to tell them at the drop of a hat. At the time there were
pretty strong connections between Webbs and Wheatcrofts - so much so
that the Sales Manager was married to one of the Keys girls (Fibrex)
and I think it was Chris Wheatcroft who married one of the other
sisters.

The Ena Harkness I took to shows for them was
certainly fragrant. Dunno about what I was budding because we were
just issued every morning with bundles of budwood without flowers.

I can't be sure, but I think the problem had been sorted well before
then - we were main agents for Wheatcrofts and when I first took the
job, I remember some customers eyeing Ena suspiciously.

It was already well known then that Gloire de Dijon was a shadow of its
former self and it happened with Super Star soon after, though that
was soon superceded by better varieties in that colour range.

If ever a star should fall from grace so spectacularly it was 'Super
Star'. To my mind it was the epitome of plant style over substance.
Yes the colour was a breakthrough, but such a gangly inelegant plant
and so prone to mildew and rust. When I started my nursery a few
years later, I refused to stock it. In a way, I was being somewhat
inconsistent for I would happily stock and recommend hybrid gallica
roses, which are almost all highly prone to mildew.

I suppose I can defend that stance by the fact that gallicas can be
heavily mildewed and yet not lose any vigour. Not so 'Super Star', to
get it to perform well it needed far more TLC than most people could
give. Occasionally you would see a good plant, but not before you had
seen a hundred bad ones beforehand.


Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November

John Edgar wrote:

Thanks for this. Maybe I will stick with it for a couple more years,
but if it doesn't shape up I will complain to DA Roses again. It is in
a sunny spot, growing over our shed and our soil is very good. It may
get some frost, but not much. We live not too far from the south
coast.

In which case it should perform with you. I was referring to my plant
which had to put up with some pretty stiff winters in the Midlands -
although David's nursery isn't that far away from where I lived at the
time. I looked upon it as a rose that needed just that little extra
bit of care and accepted it as such. It really should do fairly well
in milder regions. I wonder if he's got a duff batch - unlikely
because David Austin has always been 'on the ball' with such matters.
I can't think that the huge expansion over the past decade has dulled
such an important ethos.

The only thing I can think of (but that only applies to this year) is
that depending upon how far east you are along the coast, winter
arrived in early spring and caused some quite serious set-backs in
some areas. It certainly happened here with the first frost in late
January, when all of my plants were well into spring growth. A couple
of weeks of truly wintry weather brought everything to a complete
standstill and some of my plants are still showing signs of it even
now. Admittedly, everything I grow here is subtropical, but even
roses can get a nasty shock from frosts and prolonged cold weather
when they are gearing up for the spring push.

Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November

On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:09:15 +0100, Dave Poole
wrote:


If I remember correctly, I was told this in the very early '70's when
Harry used to visit our summer shows. We ( I was plants manager for
Webbs at Wychbold at the time) used to put on a pretty impressive
summer show with Wheatcroft roses, Blackmore & Langdons incredible
show Begonias and Delphs, Wills Fuchsias and Fibrex for Pelargoniums,
Ferns and Ivies. Not exactly Chelsea, but a rather splendid effort
nonetheless.

Old Harry used to arrive - ever the showman, in white suit, panama and
white Rolls Royce. I took the opportunity to chat with him whenever I
could - he had so many fascinating tales to tell and relished the
opportunity to tell them at the drop of a hat. At the time there were
pretty strong connections between Webbs and Wheatcrofts - so much so
that the Sales Manager was married to one of the Keys girls (Fibrex)
and I think it was Chris Wheatcroft who married one of the other
sisters.

Thanks for that, very interesting, I never heard much about/from
Wheatcrofts after I left so it's nice to have some update.
When I was there the great man's main winter sport was going round the
packing sheds in shirt sleeves and shorts and turning the heaters off.
In summer he went to the shows which was bad news for us lesser
mortals, if he was on the stand nobody wanted to talk to us - they
wanted the man himself so we got no commission.
BTW they were very good at training late entrants to the industry and
David & Chris were way ahead of the pack in terms of managing and
motivating a workforce.
F.A.B. (Fab) Newnham the nursery manager during my time was an
excellent grower, he left shortly after me to manage a big new garden
centre nr Nottingham.
I can't be sure, but I think the problem had been sorted well before
then - we were main agents for Wheatcrofts and when I first took the
job, I remember some customers eyeing Ena suspiciously.

Probably before I started working in horticulture.

If ever a star should fall from grace so spectacularly it was 'Super
Star'. To my mind it was the epitome of plant style over substance.
Yes the colour was a breakthrough,

Yes it wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes in the market but for the
colour.
I suppose I can defend that stance by the fact that gallicas can be
heavily mildewed and yet not lose any vigour.

Yes I still grow one or two Gallicas.



=================================================

Rod

Weed my email address to reply.
http://website.lineone.net/~rodcraddock/index.html

On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:24:43 +0100, Rod
wrote:

Thanks for that, very interesting, I never heard much about/from
Wheatcrofts after I left so it's nice to have some update.
When I was there the great man's main winter sport was going round the
packing sheds in shirt sleeves and shorts and turning the heaters off.
In summer he went to the shows which was bad news for us lesser
mortals, if he was on the stand nobody wanted to talk to us - they
wanted the man himself so we got no commission.

If its any consolation, Harry just revelled in limelight and probably
gave no thought to the fact that he was saving himself (and robbing
you) commission.

BTW they were very good at training late entrants to the industry and
David & Chris were way ahead of the pack in terms of managing and
motivating a workforce.

Yes, their reputation for this was widely known at the time - I
remember half wishing I lived close to Nottingham. However, in those
early days, Webbs were pretty good and although they were catapulting
towards mass garden-centre-ism, there was still something of the 'old
days' when I was there. I enjoyed working for them

F.A.B. (Fab) Newnham the nursery manager during my time was an
excellent grower, he left shortly after me to manage a big new garden
centre nr Nottingham.

Aha! There's a name I haven't heard of in a while. I'm sure he must
have still been there during my first years. I remember coming up to
the rose grounds during one summer to look over the stocks to be
lifted later that autumn. What a fabulous sight it was, acre after
acre of roses. I even had a go at budding - boy what a physically
demanding and back-breaking job that is. How those guys could work so
fast, for so long, in such an impossible position and still get a good
take, escapes me. A hour at it helped me decide that budding roses
'gang fashion' was not for me.


Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November

On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:21:58 +0100, Dave Poole
wrote:

John Edgar wrote:

Thanks for this. Maybe I will stick with it for a couple more years,
but if it doesn't shape up I will complain to DA Roses again. It is in
a sunny spot, growing over our shed and our soil is very good. It may
get some frost, but not much. We live not too far from the south
coast.

In which case it should perform with you. I was referring to my plant
which had to put up with some pretty stiff winters in the Midlands -
although David's nursery isn't that far away from where I lived at the
time. I looked upon it as a rose that needed just that little extra
bit of care and accepted it as such. It really should do fairly well
in milder regions. I wonder if he's got a duff batch - unlikely
because David Austin has always been 'on the ball' with such matters.
I can't think that the huge expansion over the past decade has dulled
such an important ethos.

The only thing I can think of (but that only applies to this year) is
that depending upon how far east you are along the coast, winter
arrived in early spring and caused some quite serious set-backs in
some areas.

Well, yes, we did have a strange winter and that might have had an
effect I suppose. But it has never done what I think it should, even
with "normal" seasons. One other thing, I don't dead-head it, as I
simply cannot reach. Would that make a difference?

It certainly happened here with the first frost in late
January, when all of my plants were well into spring growth. A couple
of weeks of truly wintry weather brought everything to a complete
standstill and some of my plants are still showing signs of it even
now. Admittedly, everything I grow here is subtropical, but even
roses can get a nasty shock from frosts and prolonged cold weather
when they are gearing up for the spring push.

Dave Poole
Torquay, Coastal South Devon UK
Winter min -2°C. Summer max 34°C.
Growing season: March - November

John
In limine sapientiae