"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
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Big snip
when they aren't generating. The Ardrossan one I can see from here is
very, very rarely still.

Janet

There's a name that brings back many and strange memories of a previous
life! How the ferry copes goodness only knows we used to try and get in
there every couple of weeks and even in Summer it was something of a
pantomime. Last time I was there we sank one of their mooring boats, we did
rescue the crew!

I can not see why people are so anti wind turbines, farming carries on under
them, and when they are no longer required they are as quick to take down as
put up. (and yes I do live near turbines)
--
Charlie, gardening in Cornwall.
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs)

"BAC" wrote in message
. ..

"Mike" wrote in message
...


In Oz they have become aware of the unsolved problem of wind farms
producing output when it can't be used and not producing output when
it is needed, just as the Danes have after both have invested a vast
amount in wind farms. UK next?
--
Martin

"The Tide regularly Ebbs and Flows, twice in every 24 hours". Can
someone
please explain to me why tidal power has not been harnessed?


Tidal flow has been used to generate electricity on the Rance estuary in
Northern France, I believe. 'Tide mills' were in use on tidal parts of
rivers back in the middle ages, and electrical generating stations would
work on a similar principal but on a much larger scale.

I don't know why no-one has yet built a tidal flow power station in the
UK,
but I'd guess cost has something to do with it, plus concerns about the
effects of damming up major rivers on sewage disposal and the ecologies of
the areas which would be changed by the damming.

I think the French had a lot of trouble with sand wearing out the turbines.
--
Charlie, gardening in Cornwall.
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs)

In article , BAC
writes

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from contains these words:


In Oz they have become aware of the unsolved problem of wind farms
producing output when it can't be used and not producing output when
it is needed, just as the Danes have after both have invested a vast
amount in wind farms. UK next?

The UK has a national power grid and high population density so there
isn't any problem of UK windfarms producing surplus power that can't be
used; they just feed it into the grid.

Just feeding it into the grid doesn't necessarily mean it gets put to any
actual or practical use, though. Distance between point of input to the grid
and point of use is still a factor, because of losses associated with Joule
heating, so generating facilities located re,otely from centres of heavy
demand are relatively inefficient in meeting that demand. Further,
additional power input to the grid at times when supply already exceeds
demand is still wasted.

Granted, those aren't problems to the wind turbine operators as long as the
grid is obliged to accept energy input from them whether or not needed
locally at the time.

There is another solution, given a National Grid - accept energy from
sources which can't be easily turned on and off, and not from those
which can. It's unlikely that wind power will provide too much
electricity by itself in the forseeable future, even at times of low
demand.


--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
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from "BAC" contains these words:

Tidal flow has been used to generate electricity on the Rance estuary in
Northern France, I believe.

Pelamis has supplied wave-generated power to the national grid from
Orkney

Perhaps, but as you say, that is wave generated power, not tidal flow
generated power.


I don't know why no-one has yet built a tidal flow power station in the
UK,


Google on European Marine Energy Centre.

IIRC, it didn't include tidal flow generation facilities as built, that was
something reserved for the future, and would require an extension.

It's in Scotland.


In the same sense that the Isles of Scilly are in England, I suppose.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 18:44:59 -0000, "BAC"
wrote:


"Mike" wrote in message
...


In Oz they have become aware of the unsolved problem of wind farms
producing output when it can't be used and not producing output when
it is needed, just as the Danes have after both have invested a vast
amount in wind farms. UK next?
--
Martin

"The Tide regularly Ebbs and Flows, twice in every 24 hours". Can
someone
please explain to me why tidal power has not been harnessed?


Tidal flow has been used to generate electricity on the Rance estuary in
Northern France, I believe.

This has resulted in the Rance silting up.


Has it? If so, that's not entirely surprising. Any system which 'ponds' fast
flowing water is likely to cause some of the solids carried by that water to
settle out.

On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 02:12:41 GMT, Janet Baraclough wrote:

The message
from contains these words:

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:18:28 GMT, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from contains these words:


In Oz they have become aware of the unsolved problem of wind farms
producing output when it can't be used and not producing output when
it is needed, just as the Danes have after both have invested a vast
amount in wind farms. UK next?

The UK has a national power grid and high population density so there
isn't any problem of UK windfarms producing surplus power that can't be
used; they just feed it into the grid.

There is exactly the same problem in UK as any where else. You can't
just feed it into the grid, it needs to be consumed.

Oz can't send the surplus from windfarms to be used elsewhere,
because of the lack of grid connections. For the same reason Denmark
also can't send surplus power (whatever way it's generated) from one
side of the country to where it's needed at the other. The UK can, which
is an advantage over both those countries on the issues you cited above.

Janet

Denmark can send and receive power from the Norway/Finland/Sweden on the
east and Germany and the rest of mainland Europe on the west. Nearly all
countries in Europe buy and sell excess power to each other regularly.

--
Tim C.

"Mike" wrote in message
...


In Oz they have become aware of the unsolved problem of wind farms
producing output when it can't be used and not producing output
when
it is needed, just as the Danes have after both have invested a
vast
amount in wind farms. UK next?
--
Martin

"The Tide regularly Ebbs and Flows, twice in every 24 hours". Can
someone
please explain to me why tidal power has not been harnessed?

Think of the variations between springs and neaps
Think of the 50% duty cycle.
Think of the public outcry when there was talk about a Severn barrage
for harnessing tidal power.

I can predict with 101% accuracy that the same will be happening in
10
years, 50 years, 1000 years time. Where is the doubt?

Franz

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from contains these words:


In Oz they have become aware of the unsolved problem of wind farms
producing output when it can't be used and not producing output
when
it is needed, just as the Danes have after both have invested a
vast
amount in wind farms. UK next?

The UK has a national power grid and high population density so
there
isn't any problem of UK windfarms producing surplus power that
can't be
used; they just feed it into the grid.

The grid is not an effective store. It is primarily a distribution
system. Power generated at the wrong time is power generated at the
wrong time and can be utilised only by other generating units mucking
about with their boiling rates.
Most generating organisations sell the off peak stuff cheap rather
than fiddling continuously with the boilers.

As an island sitting on the west edge of a huge ocean, the UK
overall is
significantly windier than Denmark or a huge dry landmass like
Australia, so UK windfarms have a much lower proportion of
still-time
when they aren't generating. The Ardrossan one I can see from here
is
very, very rarely still.

What does sitting on the west end of a huge ocean have to do with
experiencing significantly more wind than being on the edge of, or in
the middle of a dry land mass? A study of the daily isobar maps
presented by the various weather witch doctors shows no features which
might favour your premise.

Incidentally, last Sunday we noticed the huge windmills right on the
edge (I do mean right on the edge) of a substantial village with tall
buildings, in Weardale. A more ridiculous spot for windmills is hard
to imagine. I wonder what the owners had to do to get planning
permission.

Franz

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , BAC
writes

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from contains these words:


In Oz they have become aware of the unsolved problem of wind
farms
producing output when it can't be used and not producing output
when
it is needed, just as the Danes have after both have invested a
vast
amount in wind farms. UK next?

The UK has a national power grid and high population density
so there
isn't any problem of UK windfarms producing surplus power that
can't be
used; they just feed it into the grid.

Just feeding it into the grid doesn't necessarily mean it gets put
to any
actual or practical use, though. Distance between point of input to
the grid
and point of use is still a factor, because of losses associated
with Joule
heating, so generating facilities located re,otely from centres of
heavy
demand are relatively inefficient in meeting that demand. Further,
additional power input to the grid at times when supply already
exceeds
demand is still wasted.

Granted, those aren't problems to the wind turbine operators as
long as the
grid is obliged to accept energy input from them whether or not
needed
locally at the time.

There is another solution, given a National Grid - accept energy
from
sources which can't be easily turned on and off, and not from those
which can. It's unlikely that wind power will provide too much
electricity by itself in the forseeable future, even at times of low
demand.

That last sentence of Kay is a clear enough statement that the
present fashoin of favouring wind power is deeply flawed.
There really is no alternative to developing nuclear power stations as
fast as possible, all over he world. The whole brouhaha about
managing spent fuel and radioactive waste is entirely a political
problem. Scientific solutions do exist

But this is not gardening {:-((

Franz.

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from contains these words:

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:18:28 GMT, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from contains these words:


In Oz they have become aware of the unsolved problem of wind
farms
producing output when it can't be used and not producing output
when
it is needed, just as the Danes have after both have invested a
vast
amount in wind farms. UK next?

The UK has a national power grid and high population density
so there
isn't any problem of UK windfarms producing surplus power that
can't be
used; they just feed it into the grid.

There is exactly the same problem in UK as any where else. You
can't
just feed it into the grid, it needs to be consumed.

Oz can't send the surplus from windfarms to be used elsewhere,
because of the lack of grid connections. For the same reason
Denmark
also can't send surplus power (whatever way it's generated) from
one
side of the country to where it's needed at the other.

Really? Why not?

The UK can, which
is an advantage over both those countries on the issues you cited
above.

Franz

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:00:41 +0100, Tim Challenger
wrote:

On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 02:12:41 GMT, Janet Baraclough wrote:

The message
from contains these words:

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:18:28 GMT, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from contains these words:



There is no way of storing or using a surplus when electricity is over
produced.


Yes there is, in wales where they pump water up to a high resevoir to use
surplus power then release it through turbines when they need extra

--
Charlie, gardening in Cornwall.
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs)

There's plenty of detailed reports about the problems on the web,
google to find them.
--
Martin

On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:26:31 -0000, Charlie Pridham wrote:

There is no way of storing or using a surplus when electricity is over
produced.


Yes there is, in wales where they pump water up to a high resevoir to use
surplus power then release it through turbines when they need extra

That's what they do in Austria in a few places as well. It's an option only
viable where there are mountains really, but in the future any excess could
be used for making hydrogen for fuel cells. That's relatively easy to
store.

--
Tim C.

wrote in message
news
On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:26:31 -0000, "Charlie Pridham"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:00:41 +0100, Tim Challenger
wrote:

On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 02:12:41 GMT, Janet Baraclough wrote:

The message
from contains these words:

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:18:28 GMT, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from contains these words:



There is no way of storing or using a surplus when electricity is over
produced.


Yes there is, in wales where they pump water up to a high resevoir to
use
surplus power then release it through turbines when they need extra

That might work now, it won't when UK reaches the target of 20%
electricity generated by wind power.
--
Martin

At long last they are starting to put the turbines in the tidal flow off
Cornwall, that is pretty reliable and at least you know when slack water
will occur!

--
Charlie, gardening in Cornwall.
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs)

"Charlie Pridham" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:00:41 +0100, Tim Challenger
wrote:

On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 02:12:41 GMT, Janet Baraclough wrote:

The message
from contains these words:

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 17:18:28 GMT, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from contains these words:



There is no way of storing or using a surplus when electricity is
over
produced.


Yes there is, in wales where they pump water up to a high resevoir
to use
surplus power then release it through turbines when they need extra

The recycling hydroelectric stations in the UK all together can handle
only a small fraction of the problems which will arise in due course,
as sure as eggs is eggs.

Franz