I am considering putting my kitchen waste (peelings + eggshells) into a
trench where I am going to grow peas this year (garden and mange tout). I
haven't done this before so a few questions:

How successful is this method of composting - will it be nicely composted
for the crop that I put in the year after (which won't be peas as I
rotate crops).

How good is it for the peas?

How exactly should the trench be done - I guess it would be about 12
inches deep and then say three inches of soil on top of that where I sow
the seeds?

Can the same method be successfuly used for other veg? In particular
(because I also plan to grow these this year too), marrow, courgette,
squash and cucumber.

Thanks,

PT

I've seen this method used but with the addition of tiger worms. It's the
easiest way of starting a wormery and just covered with a old piece of
carpet will survive the winter well. They were having great results with
soft fruit bushes too.

"Paul Taylor" wrote in message
news
I am considering putting my kitchen waste (peelings + eggshells) into a
trench where I am going to grow peas this year (garden and mange tout). I
haven't done this before so a few questions:

How successful is this method of composting - will it be nicely composted
for the crop that I put in the year after (which won't be peas as I
rotate crops).

How good is it for the peas?

How exactly should the trench be done - I guess it would be about 12
inches deep and then say three inches of soil on top of that where I sow
the seeds?

Can the same method be successfuly used for other veg? In particular
(because I also plan to grow these this year too), marrow, courgette,
squash and cucumber.

Thanks,

PT

Once again my totally NON-expert advice is offered:

Paul Taylor wrote in message et...
I am considering putting my kitchen waste (peelings + eggshells) into a
trench where I am going to grow peas this year (garden and mange tout). I
haven't done this before so a few questions:

I wouldn't ever use eggshells. Or any animal compost that isn't
clearly safe from creating peculiar moulds etc in the compost you are
trying to make, or possibly acting as a habitat for some kind of weird
disease. And it seems unlikely you can really ever have a volume of
eggshells such that throwing them away would be much of a waste.

How successful is this method of composting - will it be nicely composted
for the crop that I put in the year after (which won't be peas as I
rotate crops).

In my experience, not very successful at all, but it could depend on
the volume of your trench. I guess unless it is a couple of feet each
way it's going to decompose a lot more slowly than in a heap, because
of not being exposed enough underground. I once tried burying some
compost material and found it again a year later. Even green manures
can take 9-12 months after they're dug in before they're actually
adding value I think.

How good is it for the peas?

Probably not that great, for the above reason.

Peas need carbonic compost, being peas, and so if something makes good
general compost you're probably better off using it in the compost
bin. I found that minced leylandii worked as a pea trench material
after it had been left for six months.

How exactly should the trench be done - I guess it would be about 12
inches deep and then say three inches of soil on top of that where I sow
the seeds?

I would think you need more than 3 inches, or their roots won't be
very developed when they're having to deal with the material... in
fact they'd come to the end of the normal soil before they were a week
old.

Can the same method be successfuly used for other veg? In particular
(because I also plan to grow these this year too), marrow, courgette,
squash and cucumber.

I don't think so, not everything's as tough as peas. I've never heard
of using half-made compost stuff with any other crop, and I think the
principle that applies is probably that plants requiring a decent
amount of nitrogen will react poorly to being deprived of it, by it
being locked up in a decomposition process.

So I would say definitely don't try with cucubits at all. They need
the richest and most well-made compost you can find. Might have a
chance with something long-lived like a brussels sprout but I don't
think so.


Warwick Dumas

www.members.tripod.com/ecuqe

"If Adolf Hitler were here today, they'd send a limousine anyway." -
Joe Strummer

Paul Taylor wrote:

I am considering putting my kitchen waste (peelings + eggshells) into a
trench where I am going to grow peas this year (garden and mange tout). I
haven't done this before so a few questions:

How successful is this method of composting - will it be nicely composted
for the crop that I put in the year after (which won't be peas as I
rotate crops).

Successful, you may get foxes/rats digging about though. If this bothers
you it may not be the solution for you. The odd occasion that we get
this we fill it in again. We tend to use mainly vegetable material.

Yes it will be well rotted for a secondary crop.

The ususal time to do this is Autumn. your a little late this year, but
its still worth doing if the ground isn't frozen.

For peas/beans you can also put up to 3 folded newpapers (broadsheets
woerk well) soaked in water, at base of the trench.

Topping with a little mature compost can also be a good idea.
How good is it for the peas?

If done properly, very. Even better for the beans. If you can add a
little mature compost or bonfire ash from woodly clippings even better.

How exactly should the trench be done - I guess it would be about 12
inches deep and then say three inches of soil on top of that where I sow
the seeds?

The recmmended method is to dig a trench 1 spit deep (a spit is the
depth of a normal spade) fork over the bottom with a fork, then
introduce your waste material. A variation of the method is Sheet
composting (I'm pretty sure this is covered in the FAQ's or ABC or
something)

Can the same method be successfuly used for other veg? In particular
(because I also plan to grow these this year too), marrow, courgette,
squash and cucumber.

Better for the tougher vegetable.. I'd say for the hardier squashes,
courgette, marrow, pumkin etc give it a try. Cucumbers tend to like
something a bit more mature, but then if you have extra plants, have a
go and you'll find out;-)
//
J

On Sat, 04 Jan 2003 15:58:05 +0000, Paul Taylor
wrote:

I am considering putting my kitchen waste (peelings + eggshells) into a
trench where I am going to grow peas this year (garden and mange tout). I
haven't done this before so a few questions:

How successful is this method of composting - will it be nicely composted
for the crop that I put in the year after (which won't be peas as I
rotate crops).

How good is it for the peas?

How exactly should the trench be done - I guess it would be about 12
inches deep and then say three inches of soil on top of that where I sow
the seeds?

Can the same method be successfuly used for other veg? In particular
(because I also plan to grow these this year too), marrow, courgette,
squash and cucumber.


It's a technique I use for my peas and beans - though for cucurbits
I've had better results using mature compost heavily incorporated
through the entire soil depth ( though one year I grew my courgettes
on a mound infilled with 'scrattlings' .... a local word for the manky
arse-bits left over from sheep shearing. Boy did they grow - and the
soil that was left behind afterwards was beautifully friable ).

I tend to double-dig for trench composting - incorporating the raw
waste into the second spit and infilling with the first ( which also
keeps the topsoil on the top! ). Gives me at least 5 or 6 inches of
soil before the roots hit the compost.
Forking over the bottom of the trench before filling will help to
increase soil depth and provide better drainage in heavy soils.

I find it's best to dig the trenches widthways... about two feet wide.
Save up the waste in a bin until there's enough to fill a trench.
Earth from the next trench is used to fill the existing one.
Dig the first trench and place the lifted soil in a barrow and heft it
to the end up the proposed trench. When you get around to infilling
the last trench you'll have a pile of soil right there.

If you can find the odd dollop of fresh horse dung lying around, chuck
in the trench before infilling.... it'll help to 'get things going'.

By the time you come around to next year's crops you'll hardly see any
evidence of the raw compost...save for the odd eggshell ( break them
up first..they don't rot down that well but will add to the soil
structure ).
It's an excellent technique for follow-on crops that require an
undisturbed soil.

I usually grow Alderman peas on my trenches - this variety hits six
feet plus in height, so there's a lot of leaf to feed. I get excellent
results ( and peas! ).

You may find the ground a little rough for pea seeds - in which case
try sowing the seeds in lengths of soil filled guttering. Come
planting out time all you have to do is slide the shoots out into a
rough channel dug into the soil. Works a treat, and prevents mice etc.
from poaching the seeds.

A note of caution - if you don't ensure any raw potato waste is well
chopped you may suffer from the odd rogue spud trying to grow up
through your peas. It's enough to pick the shoots out, but it can
become a chore if too many peelings start to sprout.
You can sometimes find the odd tomato plant popping up too - I've
occasionally had excellent cherry toms from these!

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

In article ,
Warwick Michael Dumas wrote:
Once again my totally NON-expert advice is offered:

Well, I am no expert, but I have done things like this and have read
about them in many places.

Paul Taylor wrote in message et...
I am considering putting my kitchen waste (peelings + eggshells) into a
trench where I am going to grow peas this year (garden and mange tout). I
haven't done this before so a few questions:

I wouldn't ever use eggshells. Or any animal compost that isn't
clearly safe from creating peculiar moulds etc in the compost you are
trying to make, or possibly acting as a habitat for some kind of weird
disease. And it seems unlikely you can really ever have a volume of
eggshells such that throwing them away would be much of a waste.

You have been listening too much to the government and other propagators
of nonsense. There is effectively no danger of any sort from composting
any kitchen waste from material that is safe to use in the first place.
The only real danger comes from feeding it to livestock of a similar type
to that which produced the material.

How successful is this method of composting - will it be nicely composted
for the crop that I put in the year after (which won't be peas as I
rotate crops).

In my experience, not very successful at all, but it could depend on
the volume of your trench. I guess unless it is a couple of feet each
way it's going to decompose a lot more slowly than in a heap, because
of not being exposed enough underground. I once tried burying some
compost material and found it again a year later. Even green manures
can take 9-12 months after they're dug in before they're actually
adding value I think.

It depends critically on the type of soil and weather. Light soil,
warm and damp weather (not sodden) and it breaks down in next to no
time. Buried in cold, waterlogged clay, it will take a long time.
In bone-dry sand, it will simply dessicate and not rot until there
is water again.

Peas need carbonic compost, being peas, and so if something makes good
general compost you're probably better off using it in the compost
bin. I found that minced leylandii worked as a pea trench material
after it had been left for six months.

Hmm. Peas are legumes, and like quite a lot of nitrogen. Minced
leylandii after 6 months will effectively act as a somewhat acid sponge
and little else.

How exactly should the trench be done - I guess it would be about 12
inches deep and then say three inches of soil on top of that where I sow
the seeds?

I would think you need more than 3 inches, or their roots won't be
very developed when they're having to deal with the material... in
fact they'd come to the end of the normal soil before they were a week
old.

That will depend critically on the composted material and how far the
process has gone. Most plant roots will be harmed by compost in the
early stages, especially compost containing a lot of animal material
or waste. But most are quite happy once the soft material has broken
down - they don't need the process to have completed.

Can the same method be successfuly used for other veg? In particular
(because I also plan to grow these this year too), marrow, courgette,
squash and cucumber.

I don't think so, not everything's as tough as peas. I've never heard
of using half-made compost stuff with any other crop, and I think the
principle that applies is probably that plants requiring a decent
amount of nitrogen will react poorly to being deprived of it, by it
being locked up in a decomposition process.

That effect is grossly over-stated, and can easily be dealt with by
adding some general-purpose fertiliser. It is a traditional method
of growing cucurbits, and also works very well for solanaceae. But
see my warnings above.

So I would say definitely don't try with cucubits at all. They need
the richest and most well-made compost you can find. Might have a
chance with something long-lived like a brussels sprout but I don't
think so.

It is traditionally used for cucurbits to add a bit of bottom heat,
and works fine. But I have never tried with raw compost, and the old
descriptions that I saw always said to give the raw waste some months
to start breaking down before planting on top. My guess is that you
could plant after a month in the summer, given suitable material and
soil, but spring planting would best be done on a trench filled the
previous autumn.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

Paul Taylor wrote in message
et...
I am considering putting my kitchen waste (peelings + eggshells) into a
trench where I am going to grow peas this year (garden and mange tout).
I
haven't done this before so a few questions:
snip

I saw somone ( Monty Don) I think, doing this on telly. It seemed to be
worth doing not for the nutritional value, but simply because it is
excellent at holding on to water which is apparently what peas/beans tend to
miss the most.

Martin

(Nick Maclaren) wrote in message ...
In article ,
Warwick Michael Dumas wrote:
Once again my totally NON-expert advice is offered:

Well, I am no expert, but I have done things like this and have read
about them in many places.

Paul Taylor wrote in message et...
I am considering putting my kitchen waste (peelings + eggshells) into a
trench where I am going to grow peas this year (garden and mange tout). I
haven't done this before so a few questions:

I wouldn't ever use eggshells. Or any animal compost that isn't
clearly safe from creating peculiar moulds etc in the compost you are
trying to make, or possibly acting as a habitat for some kind of weird
disease. And it seems unlikely you can really ever have a volume of
eggshells such that throwing them away would be much of a waste.

You have been listening too much to the government and other propagators
of nonsense. There is effectively no danger of any sort from composting
any kitchen waste from material that is safe to use in the first place.
The only real danger comes from feeding it to livestock of a similar type
to that which produced the material.

You could be right, I just can't see the point in taking the risk when
it's a few eggshells.

How successful is this method of composting - will it be nicely composted
for the crop that I put in the year after (which won't be peas as I
rotate crops).

In my experience, not very successful at all, but it could depend on
the volume of your trench. I guess unless it is a couple of feet each
way it's going to decompose a lot more slowly than in a heap, because
of not being exposed enough underground. I once tried burying some
compost material and found it again a year later. Even green manures
can take 9-12 months after they're dug in before they're actually
adding value I think.

It depends critically on the type of soil and weather. Light soil,
warm and damp weather (not sodden) and it breaks down in next to no
time. Buried in cold, waterlogged clay, it will take a long time.
In bone-dry sand, it will simply dessicate and not rot until there
is water again.

Indeed, I've only ever had heavy-ish soil. That would explain it.

Peas need carbonic compost, being peas, and so if something makes good
general compost you're probably better off using it in the compost
bin. I found that minced leylandii worked as a pea trench material
after it had been left for six months.

Hmm. Peas are legumes, and like quite a lot of nitrogen. Minced
leylandii after 6 months will effectively act as a somewhat acid sponge
and little else.

It seemed to go OK that time. I thought peas were supposed to be
nitrogen fixers - so therefore ought to need less nitrogen given them
in the first place... ??

How exactly should the trench be done - I guess it would be about 12
inches deep and then say three inches of soil on top of that where I sow
the seeds?

I would think you need more than 3 inches, or their roots won't be
very developed when they're having to deal with the material... in
fact they'd come to the end of the normal soil before they were a week
old.

That will depend critically on the composted material and how far the
process has gone. Most plant roots will be harmed by compost in the
early stages, especially compost containing a lot of animal material
or waste. But most are quite happy once the soft material has broken
down - they don't need the process to have completed.

Can the same method be successfuly used for other veg? In particular
(because I also plan to grow these this year too), marrow, courgette,
squash and cucumber.

I don't think so, not everything's as tough as peas. I've never heard
of using half-made compost stuff with any other crop, and I think the
principle that applies is probably that plants requiring a decent
amount of nitrogen will react poorly to being deprived of it, by it
being locked up in a decomposition process.

That effect is grossly over-stated, and can easily be dealt with by
adding some general-purpose fertiliser. It is a traditional method
of growing cucurbits, and also works very well for solanaceae. But
see my warnings above.

So I would say definitely don't try with cucubits at all. They need
the richest and most well-made compost you can find. Might have a
chance with something long-lived like a brussels sprout but I don't
think so.

It is traditionally used for cucurbits to add a bit of bottom heat,
and works fine. But I have never tried with raw compost, and the old
descriptions that I saw always said to give the raw waste some months
to start breaking down before planting on top. My guess is that you
could plant after a month in the summer, given suitable material and
soil, but spring planting would best be done on a trench filled the
previous autumn.

Sounds like it's all a matter of degree. I might try it with one and
see how it does.


Warwick Dumas

www.members.tripod.com/ecuqe

"If Adolf Hitler were here today, they'd send a limousine anyway."
- the late Joe Strummer

On Sat, 04 Jan 2003 15:58:05 +0000, Paul Taylor wrote:

Thanks for the replies.

I'll probably give it go this year if the ground thaws out soon! By the
sounds of it the kitchen waste is unlikely to be decomposed enough for my
first sowing but may well be ready for one of my later sowings.

PT

It was a dark and stormy night, and as the people of uk.rec.gardening
huddled around the fire, Jim W told them this story:

The ususal time to do this is Autumn. your a little late this year, but
its still worth doing if the ground isn't frozen.

For peas/beans you can also put up to 3 folded newpapers (broadsheets
woerk well) soaked in water, at base of the trench.

My gardening book gives me a crop rotation system in which legumes
follow brassicas, so that the nitrogen-fixing replenishes the soil after
the brassicas have eaten up all the good stuff. But I obviously can`t
start digging trenches when my sprouts are still in full swing and the
broccoli hasn`t even got going yet! Perhaps I should be using some
other rotation system..


Rhiannon, only got three beds (well, two, but one is long and thin and
so can by split down the middle), but with such clayey stoney soil has
given up trying for root veg, so only three crop groups..

On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 15:34:57 +0000, Rhiannon Macfie Miller
wrote:

My gardening book gives me a crop rotation system in which legumes
follow brassicas, so that the nitrogen-fixing replenishes the soil after
the brassicas have eaten up all the good stuff. But I obviously can`t
start digging trenches when my sprouts are still in full swing and the
broccoli hasn`t even got going yet! Perhaps I should be using some
other rotation system..

I've seen so many contradictory jottings on crop rotation that I've
thrown my hands up in exasperation and resorted to bunging things in
as and where there's space.
As far as I see it there's a reasonably simple logic to follow.
Avoid the same crops in the same spot year in year out.
Give due regard to the needs of a particular crop - such as a stiff,
undisturbed soil for brassicas.
Make sure each crop has what it needs... cucurbits need lots of food,
salads need shade in summer, sweetcorn likes to huddle.

For sure, if you want your veg patch to run like a train then you need
to plan, especially if you get into intercropping - but I tend to
manure everything annually bar the spot that's earmarked for the
brassicas.

Rhiannon, only got three beds (well, two, but one is long and thin and
so can by split down the middle), but with such clayey stoney soil has
given up trying for root veg, so only three crop groups..

I have four beds at the moment, with similarly heavy soil ( on my
third fork in less than six years! ) - and I've had crappy root veg up
'til last year.
What I did was dig out a 4x4 plot and fill it with very old well
rotted manure to a depth of a foot. I then used that for my carrots -
and I have to say they shot right down!
Better still, they pulled up dead easy.... as did the resulting weeds!

With a couple of bags of the cheapest potting compost you can find you
can provide yourself with a small patch that will happily see you in
carrots through the summer. No need to thin, just throw the seeds on
and let 'em find their own space.

Regards,


--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

It was a dark and stormy night, and as the people of uk.rec.gardening
huddled around the fire, Stephen Howard told them this story:

I have four beds at the moment, with similarly heavy soil ( on my
third fork in less than six years! ) - and I've had crappy root veg up
'til last year.
What I did was dig out a 4x4 plot and fill it with very old well
rotted manure to a depth of a foot. I then used that for my carrots -
and I have to say they shot right down!
Better still, they pulled up dead easy.... as did the resulting weeds!

Gosh! What we tried was to dig out (to about a foot or so) something
about the size of 2'x2', sifted out all the stones (that's why it wasn`t
any bigger: we were exhausted after that), and filled up the space left
by the stones (about half the total volume) with a mixture of sand and
compost. And we still got virtually nothing. I have a feeling the
seeds all rotted, but several started growing before disappearing, so
maybe they all got eaten.

Rhiannon, picked out four carrots about the size and shape of small
marbles, so won`t be trying that again.