Oh Dear, Oh Dear. It'll be lily of the valley, foxgloves and runner
beans next!



TERROR FEAR SEEDS TAKEN OFF SHELVES


14:00 - 13 January 2003

A leading garden centre has pulled its stock of castor oil seed from the
shelves amid fears they could be used in a terrorist attack.

Wyevale garden centres, which has a store in Siemens Way on Swansea
Enterprise Park, is no longer selling the seeds at any of its 124
centres across the country.

It follows the discovery of the deadly poison ricin, which can be made
from the seeds, in a north London flat.

Seven people have been arrested in London and are still being questioned
by police who are trying to establish if the men have links to the
al-Qaeda terrorist network.

Police are believed to be hunting a number of other suspects in
connection with the find with ports and airports being put on full
alert.

Ricin is a toxic material extracted from the beans of the castor oil
plant which can be fatal when inhaled, ingested or injected.

One to three castor beans chewed by a child, or just eight seeds chewed
by an adult can be fatal.

The equivalent weight to a single grain of salt - roughly 70 micrograms
or two millionths of an ounce - is enough to kill an adult.

Ricin is 6,000 times more poisonous per gram than cyanide. There is no
antidote but scientists are working on a vaccine.

A spokeswoman said Wyevale bosses believed that taking the beans off the
shelf was the logical response to the discovery in London.

"Our customers rely on us to provide a high quality service and we
believe this is the most responsible course of action for the company to
take," she said. While the exact nature of the initial symptoms can vary
from person to person, they include fever, stomach upsets and coughing.

It can be up to 24 hours before the first effects are seen and several
days before more serious problems develop.

Public health authorities have said people should not be alarmed.



--
Neil Jones- http://www.butterflyguy.com/
NOTE NEW WEB ADDRESS
"At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog
National Nature Reserve

In article ,
Neil Jones writes:
|
| TERROR FEAR SEEDS TAKEN OFF SHELVES
|
| Oh Dear, Oh Dear. It'll be lily of the valley, foxgloves and runner
| beans next!

Not to say monkshood and even potatoes :-)

I am pretty certain that the current Terrorism Act makes it a
crime to grow any of the above, but the Websites are knotted
enough that I cannot check on whether the wording is as bad as
I think it is.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

Nick Maclaren wrote:

In article ,
Neil Jones writes:
|
| TERROR FEAR SEEDS TAKEN OFF SHELVES
|
| Oh Dear, Oh Dear. It'll be lily of the valley, foxgloves and runner
| beans next!

Not to say monkshood and even potatoes :-)

I am pretty certain that the current Terrorism Act makes it a
crime to grow any of the above, but the Websites are knotted
enough that I cannot check on whether the wording is as bad as
I think it is.


Oh without a doubt. The example I usually make about the Terrorism Act
is it makes owning a London A-Z illegal. For those who doubt me read the
act!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

--
Neil Jones- http://www.butterflyguy.com/
"At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog
National Nature Reserve

"Neil Jones" wrote
Oh Dear, Oh Dear. It'll be lily of the valley, foxgloves and runner
beans next!
TERROR FEAR SEEDS TAKEN OFF SHELVES

snipped

One to three castor beans chewed by a child, or just eight seeds
chewed
by an adult can be fatal.

A friend asked, half jokingly, "how can I get my hubby to chew 8 of
them.......?"

Jenny :~)

In article ,
"JennyC" writes:
|
| One to three castor beans chewed by a child, or just eight seeds
| chewed
| by an adult can be fatal.
|
| A friend asked, half jokingly, "how can I get my hubby to chew 8 of
| them.......?"

It's not hard to extract impure ricin, but she would be better
off with using one with less distinctive symptoms - especially at
present!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...
Nick Maclaren wrote:

Not to say monkshood and even potatoes :-)

I am pretty certain that the current Terrorism Act makes it a
crime to grow any of the above, but the Websites are knotted
enough that I cannot check on whether the wording is as bad as
I think it is.


Oh without a doubt. The example I usually make about the Terrorism Act
is it makes owning a London A-Z illegal. For those who doubt me read the
act!


I just have done on line and cannot identify the section to which you
refer - could you supply a page/section reference?

The site I used was: http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00011--b.htm#1


pk

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
Neil Jones writes:
|
| TERROR FEAR SEEDS TAKEN OFF SHELVES
|
| Oh Dear, Oh Dear. It'll be lily of the valley, foxgloves and runner
| beans next!

Not to say monkshood and even potatoes :-)

I am pretty certain that the current Terrorism Act makes it a
crime to grow any of the above, but the Websites are knotted
enough that I cannot check on whether the wording is as bad as
I think it is.


try

http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00011--b.htm#1

pk

In article ,
"PaulK" writes:
| "Neil Jones" wrote in message
| ...
| Nick Maclaren wrote:
|
| Not to say monkshood and even potatoes :-)
|
| I am pretty certain that the current Terrorism Act makes it a
| crime to grow any of the above, but the Websites are knotted
| enough that I cannot check on whether the wording is as bad as
| I think it is.
|
| Oh without a doubt. The example I usually make about the Terrorism Act
| is it makes owning a London A-Z illegal. For those who doubt me read the
| act!
|
| I just have done on line and cannot identify the section to which you
| refer - could you supply a page/section reference?
|
| The site I used was: http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00011--b.htm#1

Section 58. I was referring to section 57.

Note that "a reasonable suspicion" in English law is a VERY much
weaker criterion than even the balance of probabilities used in
civil law, and is essentially the criterion used for when you
cannot sue the police for false arrest. For example, posting a
query or doing a Web search on how to extract ricin and then
refusing to submit to interrogation, could be regarded as being
"circumstances which give rise to a reasonable suspicion".

Section 58 is even worse, in that all the prosecution has to prove
is that the information is "likely to be useful" - e.g. an A-Z.
You then have to prove a reasonable excuse for the action or
possession, which has the "gotcha" that it might not include the
planning of lesser crimes or even civil offences - e.g. arranging
demonstrations. And you would have to PROVE even that.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

"Neil Jones" wrote in message

Ricin is 6,000 times more poisonous per gram than cyanide. There is no
antidote but scientists are working on a vaccine.

Surely you can only vaccinate against viruses? Depending on how the ricin
was ingested I'd expect you'ld have to ingest another chemical by the same
method which would react with the ricin to produce a non-toxic compound?

Martin

Nick Maclaren wrote:

In article ,
"PaulK" writes:
| "Neil Jones" wrote in message
| ...
| Nick Maclaren wrote:
|
| Not to say monkshood and even potatoes :-)
|
| I am pretty certain that the current Terrorism Act makes it a
| crime to grow any of the above, but the Websites are knotted
| enough that I cannot check on whether the wording is as bad as
| I think it is.
|
| Oh without a doubt. The example I usually make about the Terrorism Act
| is it makes owning a London A-Z illegal. For those who doubt me read the
| act!
|
| I just have done on line and cannot identify the section to which you
| refer - could you supply a page/section reference?
|
| The site I used was: http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00011--b.htm#1

Section 58. I was referring to section 57.

Exactly just to clarify and answer the question that was put to me
here is the piece of law.

57. - (1) A person commits an offence if he possesses an article in
circumstances which
give rise to a reasonable suspicion that his possession is
for a purpose connected with the
commission, preparation or instigation of an act of
terrorism.


(2) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under
this section to prove that
his possession of the article was not for a purpose connected
with the commission,
preparation or instigation of an act of terrorism.

Now read what Nick wrote below.


Note that "a reasonable suspicion" in English law is a VERY much
weaker criterion than even the balance of probabilities used in
civil law, and is essentially the criterion used for when you
cannot sue the police for false arrest. For example, posting a
query or doing a Web search on how to extract ricin and then
refusing to submit to interrogation, could be regarded as being
"circumstances which give rise to a reasonable suspicion".

Section 58 is even worse, in that all the prosecution has to prove
is that the information is "likely to be useful" - e.g. an A-Z.
You then have to prove a reasonable excuse for the action or
possession, which has the "gotcha" that it might not include the
planning of lesser crimes or even civil offences - e.g. arranging
demonstrations. And you would have to PROVE even that.

Exactly

58. - (1) A person commits an offence if-


(a) he collects or makes a record of information of a kind likely to be
useful to a
person committing or preparing an act of terrorism, or


(b) he possesses a document or record containing information of that
kind.


(2) In this section "record" includes a photographic or electronic
record.


(3) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under this
section to prove that
he had a reasonable excuse for his action or possession.

In other words under this act you have to PROVE that your possession of
anything which some
one can say has a terrorist use is not for terrorist use. The problem is
what is reasonable is
a value judgement. This sort of wording would be a gift to an
undemocratic regime. It is bad law.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

--
Neil Jones- http://www.butterflyguy.com/
NOTE NEW WEB ADDRESS
"At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog
National Nature Reserve

In article ,
"Martin Sykes" writes:
|
| "Neil Jones" wrote in message
|
| Ricin is 6,000 times more poisonous per gram than cyanide. There is no
| antidote but scientists are working on a vaccine.
|
| Surely you can only vaccinate against viruses? Depending on how the ricin
| was ingested I'd expect you'ld have to ingest another chemical by the same
| method which would react with the ricin to produce a non-toxic compound?

No. You used to vaccinate against bacteria, too. But recent
research has shown that the immune system is adaptive against
not just live organisms but some classes of 'simple' chemicals,
as well. So you can sometimes vaccinate against poisons.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

Nick Maclaren wrote:

In article ,
"Martin Sykes" writes:
|
| "Neil Jones" wrote in message
|
| Ricin is 6,000 times more poisonous per gram than cyanide. There is no
| antidote but scientists are working on a vaccine.
|
| Surely you can only vaccinate against viruses? Depending on how the ricin
| was ingested I'd expect you'ld have to ingest another chemical by the same
| method which would react with the ricin to produce a non-toxic compound?

No. You used to vaccinate against bacteria, too. But recent
research has shown that the immune system is adaptive against
not just live organisms but some classes of 'simple' chemicals,
as well. So you can sometimes vaccinate against poisons.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

What Nick says is again true. Remember however that the original article
does come from my local _RAG_. Actually there are bacterial vaccines
still in use
Cholera and Typhoid are bacterial if I rememeber correctly. I have been
vaccinated against
both.


--
Neil Jones- http://www.butterflyguy.com/
NOTE NEW WEB ADDRESS
"At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog
National Nature Reserve

The message
from "JennyC" contains these words:

A friend asked, half jokingly, "how can I get my hubby to chew 8 of
them.......?"

I suspect that slight possibility has far more to do with companies
withdrawing ricinus seeds (some seed companies have done it too), than
fear of terrorists using the garden centre to stock up. It's not unknown
for the kind of publicity that we've just seen, to result in copycat
attempts by disturbed people, or daft kids.

Janet.

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "JennyC" contains these words:

A friend asked, half jokingly, "how can I get my hubby to chew 8 of
them.......?"


I can imagine a number of very easy and effective ways..... on second
thoughts, better not go there!


On topic: check out this Radio Netherlands transcript that puts Ricin into
context

pk

"PaulK" wrote in message
...

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "JennyC" contains these words:

A friend asked, half jokingly, "how can I get my hubby to chew 8
of
them.......?"


I can imagine a number of very easy and effective ways..... on
second
thoughts, better not go there!


On topic: check out this Radio Netherlands transcript that puts
Ricin into
context
pk

You forgot the URL pk !
Jenny