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#1
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Ricinus South Wales Evening post. Oh dear
Oh Dear, Oh Dear. It'll be lily of the valley, foxgloves and runner
beans next! TERROR FEAR SEEDS TAKEN OFF SHELVES 14:00 - 13 January 2003 A leading garden centre has pulled its stock of castor oil seed from the shelves amid fears they could be used in a terrorist attack. Wyevale garden centres, which has a store in Siemens Way on Swansea Enterprise Park, is no longer selling the seeds at any of its 124 centres across the country. It follows the discovery of the deadly poison ricin, which can be made from the seeds, in a north London flat. Seven people have been arrested in London and are still being questioned by police who are trying to establish if the men have links to the al-Qaeda terrorist network. Police are believed to be hunting a number of other suspects in connection with the find with ports and airports being put on full alert. Ricin is a toxic material extracted from the beans of the castor oil plant which can be fatal when inhaled, ingested or injected. One to three castor beans chewed by a child, or just eight seeds chewed by an adult can be fatal. The equivalent weight to a single grain of salt - roughly 70 micrograms or two millionths of an ounce - is enough to kill an adult. Ricin is 6,000 times more poisonous per gram than cyanide. There is no antidote but scientists are working on a vaccine. A spokeswoman said Wyevale bosses believed that taking the beans off the shelf was the logical response to the discovery in London. "Our customers rely on us to provide a high quality service and we believe this is the most responsible course of action for the company to take," she said. While the exact nature of the initial symptoms can vary from person to person, they include fever, stomach upsets and coughing. It can be up to 24 hours before the first effects are seen and several days before more serious problems develop. Public health authorities have said people should not be alarmed. -- Neil Jones- http://www.butterflyguy.com/ NOTE NEW WEB ADDRESS "At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog National Nature Reserve |
#2
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Ricinus South Wales Evening post. Oh dear
In article , Neil Jones writes: | | TERROR FEAR SEEDS TAKEN OFF SHELVES | | Oh Dear, Oh Dear. It'll be lily of the valley, foxgloves and runner | beans next! Not to say monkshood and even potatoes :-) I am pretty certain that the current Terrorism Act makes it a crime to grow any of the above, but the Websites are knotted enough that I cannot check on whether the wording is as bad as I think it is. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 |
#3
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Ricinus South Wales Evening post. Oh dear
Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article , Neil Jones writes: | | TERROR FEAR SEEDS TAKEN OFF SHELVES | | Oh Dear, Oh Dear. It'll be lily of the valley, foxgloves and runner | beans next! Not to say monkshood and even potatoes :-) I am pretty certain that the current Terrorism Act makes it a crime to grow any of the above, but the Websites are knotted enough that I cannot check on whether the wording is as bad as I think it is. Oh without a doubt. The example I usually make about the Terrorism Act is it makes owning a London A-Z illegal. For those who doubt me read the act! Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 -- Neil Jones- http://www.butterflyguy.com/ "At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog National Nature Reserve |
#4
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Ricinus South Wales Evening post. Oh dear
"Neil Jones" wrote Oh Dear, Oh Dear. It'll be lily of the valley, foxgloves and runner beans next! TERROR FEAR SEEDS TAKEN OFF SHELVES snipped One to three castor beans chewed by a child, or just eight seeds chewed by an adult can be fatal. A friend asked, half jokingly, "how can I get my hubby to chew 8 of them.......?" Jenny :~) |
#5
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Ricinus South Wales Evening post. Oh dear
In article , "JennyC" writes: | | One to three castor beans chewed by a child, or just eight seeds | chewed | by an adult can be fatal. | | A friend asked, half jokingly, "how can I get my hubby to chew 8 of | them.......?" It's not hard to extract impure ricin, but she would be better off with using one with less distinctive symptoms - especially at present! Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 |
#6
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Ricinus South Wales Evening post. Oh dear
"Neil Jones" wrote in message ... Nick Maclaren wrote: Not to say monkshood and even potatoes :-) I am pretty certain that the current Terrorism Act makes it a crime to grow any of the above, but the Websites are knotted enough that I cannot check on whether the wording is as bad as I think it is. Oh without a doubt. The example I usually make about the Terrorism Act is it makes owning a London A-Z illegal. For those who doubt me read the act! I just have done on line and cannot identify the section to which you refer - could you supply a page/section reference? The site I used was: http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00011--b.htm#1 pk |
#7
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Ricinus South Wales Evening post. Oh dear
"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message ... In article , Neil Jones writes: | | TERROR FEAR SEEDS TAKEN OFF SHELVES | | Oh Dear, Oh Dear. It'll be lily of the valley, foxgloves and runner | beans next! Not to say monkshood and even potatoes :-) I am pretty certain that the current Terrorism Act makes it a crime to grow any of the above, but the Websites are knotted enough that I cannot check on whether the wording is as bad as I think it is. try http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00011--b.htm#1 pk |
#8
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Ricinus South Wales Evening post. Oh dear
In article , "PaulK" writes: | "Neil Jones" wrote in message | ... | Nick Maclaren wrote: | | Not to say monkshood and even potatoes :-) | | I am pretty certain that the current Terrorism Act makes it a | crime to grow any of the above, but the Websites are knotted | enough that I cannot check on whether the wording is as bad as | I think it is. | | Oh without a doubt. The example I usually make about the Terrorism Act | is it makes owning a London A-Z illegal. For those who doubt me read the | act! | | I just have done on line and cannot identify the section to which you | refer - could you supply a page/section reference? | | The site I used was: http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00011--b.htm#1 Section 58. I was referring to section 57. Note that "a reasonable suspicion" in English law is a VERY much weaker criterion than even the balance of probabilities used in civil law, and is essentially the criterion used for when you cannot sue the police for false arrest. For example, posting a query or doing a Web search on how to extract ricin and then refusing to submit to interrogation, could be regarded as being "circumstances which give rise to a reasonable suspicion". Section 58 is even worse, in that all the prosecution has to prove is that the information is "likely to be useful" - e.g. an A-Z. You then have to prove a reasonable excuse for the action or possession, which has the "gotcha" that it might not include the planning of lesser crimes or even civil offences - e.g. arranging demonstrations. And you would have to PROVE even that. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 |
#9
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Ricinus South Wales Evening post. Oh dear
"Neil Jones" wrote in message Ricin is 6,000 times more poisonous per gram than cyanide. There is no antidote but scientists are working on a vaccine. Surely you can only vaccinate against viruses? Depending on how the ricin was ingested I'd expect you'ld have to ingest another chemical by the same method which would react with the ricin to produce a non-toxic compound? Martin |
#10
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Ricinus South Wales Evening post. Oh dear
Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article , "PaulK" writes: | "Neil Jones" wrote in message | ... | Nick Maclaren wrote: | | Not to say monkshood and even potatoes :-) | | I am pretty certain that the current Terrorism Act makes it a | crime to grow any of the above, but the Websites are knotted | enough that I cannot check on whether the wording is as bad as | I think it is. | | Oh without a doubt. The example I usually make about the Terrorism Act | is it makes owning a London A-Z illegal. For those who doubt me read the | act! | | I just have done on line and cannot identify the section to which you | refer - could you supply a page/section reference? | | The site I used was: http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00011--b.htm#1 Section 58. I was referring to section 57. Exactly just to clarify and answer the question that was put to me here is the piece of law. 57. - (1) A person commits an offence if he possesses an article in circumstances which give rise to a reasonable suspicion that his possession is for a purpose connected with the commission, preparation or instigation of an act of terrorism. (2) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that his possession of the article was not for a purpose connected with the commission, preparation or instigation of an act of terrorism. Now read what Nick wrote below. Note that "a reasonable suspicion" in English law is a VERY much weaker criterion than even the balance of probabilities used in civil law, and is essentially the criterion used for when you cannot sue the police for false arrest. For example, posting a query or doing a Web search on how to extract ricin and then refusing to submit to interrogation, could be regarded as being "circumstances which give rise to a reasonable suspicion". Section 58 is even worse, in that all the prosecution has to prove is that the information is "likely to be useful" - e.g. an A-Z. You then have to prove a reasonable excuse for the action or possession, which has the "gotcha" that it might not include the planning of lesser crimes or even civil offences - e.g. arranging demonstrations. And you would have to PROVE even that. Exactly 58. - (1) A person commits an offence if- (a) he collects or makes a record of information of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism, or (b) he possesses a document or record containing information of that kind. (2) In this section "record" includes a photographic or electronic record. (3) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had a reasonable excuse for his action or possession. In other words under this act you have to PROVE that your possession of anything which some one can say has a terrorist use is not for terrorist use. The problem is what is reasonable is a value judgement. This sort of wording would be a gift to an undemocratic regime. It is bad law. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 -- Neil Jones- http://www.butterflyguy.com/ NOTE NEW WEB ADDRESS "At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog National Nature Reserve |
#11
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Ricinus South Wales Evening post. Oh dear
In article , "Martin Sykes" writes: | | "Neil Jones" wrote in message | | Ricin is 6,000 times more poisonous per gram than cyanide. There is no | antidote but scientists are working on a vaccine. | | Surely you can only vaccinate against viruses? Depending on how the ricin | was ingested I'd expect you'ld have to ingest another chemical by the same | method which would react with the ricin to produce a non-toxic compound? No. You used to vaccinate against bacteria, too. But recent research has shown that the immune system is adaptive against not just live organisms but some classes of 'simple' chemicals, as well. So you can sometimes vaccinate against poisons. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 |
#12
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Ricinus South Wales Evening post. Oh dear
Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article , "Martin Sykes" writes: | | "Neil Jones" wrote in message | | Ricin is 6,000 times more poisonous per gram than cyanide. There is no | antidote but scientists are working on a vaccine. | | Surely you can only vaccinate against viruses? Depending on how the ricin | was ingested I'd expect you'ld have to ingest another chemical by the same | method which would react with the ricin to produce a non-toxic compound? No. You used to vaccinate against bacteria, too. But recent research has shown that the immune system is adaptive against not just live organisms but some classes of 'simple' chemicals, as well. So you can sometimes vaccinate against poisons. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 What Nick says is again true. Remember however that the original article does come from my local _RAG_. Actually there are bacterial vaccines still in use Cholera and Typhoid are bacterial if I rememeber correctly. I have been vaccinated against both. -- Neil Jones- http://www.butterflyguy.com/ NOTE NEW WEB ADDRESS "At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog National Nature Reserve |
#13
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Ricinus South Wales Evening post. Oh dear
The message
from "JennyC" contains these words: A friend asked, half jokingly, "how can I get my hubby to chew 8 of them.......?" I suspect that slight possibility has far more to do with companies withdrawing ricinus seeds (some seed companies have done it too), than fear of terrorists using the garden centre to stock up. It's not unknown for the kind of publicity that we've just seen, to result in copycat attempts by disturbed people, or daft kids. Janet. |
#14
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Ricinus South Wales Evening post. Oh dear
"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message ... The message from "JennyC" contains these words: A friend asked, half jokingly, "how can I get my hubby to chew 8 of them.......?" I can imagine a number of very easy and effective ways..... on second thoughts, better not go there! On topic: check out this Radio Netherlands transcript that puts Ricin into context pk |
#15
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Ricinus South Wales Evening post. Oh dear
"PaulK" wrote in message ... "Janet Baraclough" wrote in message ... The message from "JennyC" contains these words: A friend asked, half jokingly, "how can I get my hubby to chew 8 of them.......?" I can imagine a number of very easy and effective ways..... on second thoughts, better not go there! On topic: check out this Radio Netherlands transcript that puts Ricin into context pk You forgot the URL pk ! Jenny |
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