Is there an easy way to turn limey tap water into acidic so that I can water
my heathers.

Alex

"Alex Woodward" wrote in message
...
Is there an easy way to turn limey tap water into acidic so that I can
water
my heathers.

Alex

Mine's very limey water and my heathers are fine when watered with it.

Jo

Alex Woodward wrote:

Is there an easy way to turn limey tap water into acidic so that I can water
my heathers.

Much easier to collect some of the rainwater that comes off the roof!

Sooner or later your heathers will croak if you give them too much lime.

Regards,
Martin Brown

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
Alex Woodward wrote:

Is there an easy way to turn limey tap water into acidic so that I can
water
my heathers.

Much easier to collect some of the rainwater that comes off the roof!



Remember acid rain? That's what we were all going to die of before emissions
were invented.

Showing my age again aren't I ;-))

Steve

"Jo" wrote in message
...

"Alex Woodward" wrote in message
...
Is there an easy way to turn limey tap water into acidic so that I can
water
my heathers.

Alex

Mine's very limey water and my heathers are fine when watered with it.

winter or summer flowering? The summer variety are not so tolerant to lime
by all accounts.

Alex

"shazzbat" wrote in message
...

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
Alex Woodward wrote:

Is there an easy way to turn limey tap water into acidic so that I can
water
my heathers.

Much easier to collect some of the rainwater that comes off the roof!



Remember acid rain? That's what we were all going to die of before
emissions
were invented.

Showing my age again aren't I ;-))

Steve

I am hoping for a relatively easy and unlimited supply of acid water, rather
than having to rely on rain water.

Alex

"Alex Woodward" wrote in message
...

"shazzbat" wrote in message
...

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
Alex Woodward wrote:

Is there an easy way to turn limey tap water into acidic so that I
can
water
my heathers.

Much easier to collect some of the rainwater that comes off the roof!



Remember acid rain? That's what we were all going to die of before
emissions
were invented.

Showing my age again aren't I ;-))

Steve

I am hoping for a relatively easy and unlimited supply of acid water,
rather
than having to rely on rain water.

Move to Cumbria. You'll find it's the same thing.

Steve

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:15:29 GMT, "Alex Woodward"
wrote:

Is there an easy way to turn limey tap water into acidic so that I can water
my heathers.

Alex

I add a teaspoon (say 5 ml) of vinegar to a 7 litre watering-can if
I'm watering ericaceous plants with tap water. It brings the pH down
to about 5. Our tap water is pH 7.5, not because we are in a chalky
area, quite the opposite, but many water companies add lime to raise
the water pH and reduce corrosion of concrete tanks and pipework, and
to assist in clarification of the water. I use vinegar because, as a
weak organic acid (in the chemical sense, not the eco-friendly sense),
it's broadly similar to the acids already present in peaty or acid
soils, but a single drop of battery acid would probably be just as
effective!

Calcium in th water itself isn't harmful to heathers (or other
ericaceous plants, for that matter), but the high pH associated with
chalky soils or limey tap water means that certain trace elements,
notably iron and manganese, are rendered insoluble and unavailable to
the plants. Some plants (and some types of heather, especially the
winter flowering types) are quite happy in these conditions, as they
don't have a high requirement for iron and/or manganese, but most
ericaceous plants do, so their leaves become chlorotic (yellow) and
they fail to flourish. Watering occasionally with limey water probably
won't do any harm, but repeated watering will eventually raise the pH
of the soil, or more particularly compost if it's a potted plant.


--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net

"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:15:29 GMT, "Alex Woodward"
wrote:

Is there an easy way to turn limey tap water into acidic so that I can
water
my heathers.

Alex

I add a teaspoon (say 5 ml) of vinegar to a 7 litre watering-can if
I'm watering ericaceous plants with tap water. It brings the pH down
to about 5. Our tap water is pH 7.5, not because we are in a chalky
area, quite the opposite, but many water companies add lime to raise
the water pH and reduce corrosion of concrete tanks and pipework, and
to assist in clarification of the water. I use vinegar because, as a
weak organic acid (in the chemical sense, not the eco-friendly sense),
it's broadly similar to the acids already present in peaty or acid
soils, but a single drop of battery acid would probably be just as
effective!

Calcium in th water itself isn't harmful to heathers (or other
ericaceous plants, for that matter), but the high pH associated with
chalky soils or limey tap water means that certain trace elements,
notably iron and manganese, are rendered insoluble and unavailable to
the plants. Some plants (and some types of heather, especially the
winter flowering types) are quite happy in these conditions, as they
don't have a high requirement for iron and/or manganese, but most
ericaceous plants do, so their leaves become chlorotic (yellow) and
they fail to flourish. Watering occasionally with limey water probably
won't do any harm, but repeated watering will eventually raise the pH
of the soil, or more particularly compost if it's a potted plant.

Thanks for an extremely informative post Chris. I'll definitely try the
vinegar tip. I'll use1 teaspoon full of vinegar as you suggest and give it a
PH test. So obvious when I think about it now, but it really did not occur
to me. Thanks again.

Alex

Alex Woodward wrote:

"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:15:29 GMT, "Alex Woodward"
wrote:

Is there an easy way to turn limey tap water into acidic so that I can
water
my heathers.

I add a teaspoon (say 5 ml) of vinegar to a 7 litre watering-can if
I'm watering ericaceous plants with tap water. It brings the pH down
to about 5. Our tap water is pH 7.5, not because we are in a chalky
area, quite the opposite, but many water companies add lime to raise
the water pH and reduce corrosion of concrete tanks and pipework, and
to assist in clarification of the water. I use vinegar because, as a
weak organic acid (in the chemical sense, not the eco-friendly sense),
it's broadly similar to the acids already present in peaty or acid
soils, but a single drop of battery acid would probably be just as
effective!

Adding sulphuric acid would be marginally more effective since calcium
sulphate is much less soluble than the acetate. Calcium fluoride is
virtually insoluble but you could easily get yourself killed handling HF
acid. It likes calcium far too much...

Calcium in th water itself isn't harmful to heathers (or other
ericaceous plants, for that matter), but the high pH associated with
chalky soils or limey tap water means that certain trace elements,
notably iron and manganese, are rendered insoluble and unavailable to
the plants. Some plants (and some types of heather, especially the
winter flowering types) are quite happy in these conditions, as they
don't have a high requirement for iron and/or manganese, but most
ericaceous plants do, so their leaves become chlorotic (yellow) and
they fail to flourish. Watering occasionally with limey water probably
won't do any harm, but repeated watering will eventually raise the pH
of the soil, or more particularly compost if it's a potted plant.

Thanks for an extremely informative post Chris. I'll definitely try the
vinegar tip. I'll use1 teaspoon full of vinegar as you suggest and give it a
PH test. So obvious when I think about it now, but it really did not occur
to me. Thanks again.

He has answered your question in a strict sense. Adding vinegar will
lower the pH, but since calcium acetate is soluble and calcium carbonate
is not you will gradually clog up all the pores in your compost. The
plant roots will eventually suffocate - only a matter of time.

Proprietory feed mixes like miracid that stabilise the unwanted calcium
salts in an organic complex are much better if you must use limey
tapwater. But the simplest option by far is to use collected rainwater
for lime sensitive plants.

Regards,
Martin Brown

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:48:43 +0000 (UTC), jane
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:16:14 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

~Alex Woodward wrote:
~
~ "Chris Hogg" wrote in message
~ ...
~
~On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:15:29 GMT, "Alex Woodward"
~wrote:
~
~Is there an easy way to turn limey tap water into acidic so that I can
~water
~my heathers.
~
~I add a teaspoon (say 5 ml) of vinegar to a 7 litre watering-can if
~I'm watering ericaceous plants with tap water. It brings the pH down
~to about 5. Our tap water is pH 7.5, not because we are in a chalky
~area, quite the opposite, but many water companies add lime to raise
~the water pH and reduce corrosion of concrete tanks and pipework, and
~to assist in clarification of the water. I use vinegar because, as a
~weak organic acid (in the chemical sense, not the eco-friendly sense),
~it's broadly similar to the acids already present in peaty or acid
~soils, but a single drop of battery acid would probably be just as
~effective!
~
~Adding sulphuric acid would be marginally more effective since calcium
~sulphate is much less soluble than the acetate. Calcium fluoride is
~virtually insoluble but you could easily get yourself killed handling HF
~acid. It likes calcium far too much...
~
~Calcium in th water itself isn't harmful to heathers (or other
~ericaceous plants, for that matter), but the high pH associated with
~chalky soils or limey tap water means that certain trace elements,
~notably iron and manganese, are rendered insoluble and unavailable to
~the plants. Some plants (and some types of heather, especially the
~winter flowering types) are quite happy in these conditions, as they
~don't have a high requirement for iron and/or manganese, but most
~ericaceous plants do, so their leaves become chlorotic (yellow) and
~they fail to flourish. Watering occasionally with limey water probably
~won't do any harm, but repeated watering will eventually raise the pH
~of the soil, or more particularly compost if it's a potted plant.
~
~ Thanks for an extremely informative post Chris. I'll definitely try the
~ vinegar tip. I'll use1 teaspoon full of vinegar as you suggest and give it a
~ PH test. So obvious when I think about it now, but it really did not occur
~ to me. Thanks again.
~
~He has answered your question in a strict sense. Adding vinegar will
~lower the pH, but since calcium acetate is soluble and calcium carbonate
~is not you will gradually clog up all the pores in your compost. The
~plant roots will eventually suffocate - only a matter of time.
~
~Proprietory feed mixes like miracid that stabilise the unwanted calcium
~salts in an organic complex are much better if you must use limey
~tapwater. But the simplest option by far is to use collected rainwater
~for lime sensitive plants.

I use rainwater until the butts run out then have to resort to tap, in
which case I add a capful of ericaceous fertiliser to the watering can
which I hope will offset the effect and give my camellias or
blueberries a boost at the same time.
Good that is what i do for my Blueberries on the allotment especialy when fruit is forming
and i always end up with bumper yealds from 8 bushes
I am also trying Wineberry this year grown from seeds will let the
group know what they are like when they are big enough to form fruit.

jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:16:14 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:


He has answered your question in a strict sense. Adding vinegar will
lower the pH, but since calcium acetate is soluble and calcium carbonate
is not you will gradually clog up all the pores in your compost. The
plant roots will eventually suffocate - only a matter of time.


I find this a truly bizarre suggestion. The pore volume in a good
loamy soil is probably around 50% of the total volume. That represents
a huge amount of calcium that you'd have to deposit to block them,
compared with the amount of calcium available in the water. Even if
you argue that the micropores become clogged first, in anything other
than a bone dry soil these pores contain water (due to surface tension
and capillarity), not air. Air occupies the macropores, as do a lot of
the plant roots. So the roots won't suffocate.

And why should calcium acetate clog pores anyway? It's in solution, as
you rightly say, and apart from a small amount of base exchange with
the clay minerals and organic acids present in the soil, the bulk of
it will remain in solution, just like potassium or even the complexed
calcium you suggest is present when ericaceous fertilisers are used.

By what mechanism is this clogging supposed to occur? Where did you
get such an idea from?


--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net

Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 21:16:14 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

He has answered your question in a strict sense. Adding vinegar will
lower the pH, but since calcium acetate is soluble and calcium carbonate
is not you will gradually clog up all the pores in your compost. The
plant roots will eventually suffocate - only a matter of time.

I find this a truly bizarre suggestion. The pore volume in a good
loamy soil is probably around 50% of the total volume. That represents
a huge amount of calcium that you'd have to deposit to block them,
compared with the amount of calcium available in the water. Even if
you argue that the micropores become clogged first, in anything other
than a bone dry soil these pores contain water (due to surface tension
and capillarity), not air. Air occupies the macropores, as do a lot of
the plant roots. So the roots won't suffocate.

All is a bit of an exaggeration I will admit, but enough of the ones
nearest the surface to hamper oxygen diffusion (and in a plastic pot
that is pretty much where oxygen has to enter to get to the roots).

And why should calcium acetate clog pores anyway?

CO2 cuts some of it back to carbonate especially on the surface when the
dissolved salts get concentrated by evaporation. In really hard water
regions with dark compost you can see it happen over a couple of years
as the surface sets to a concrete like crust.

you rightly say, and apart from a small amount of base exchange with
the clay minerals and organic acids present in the soil, the bulk of
it will remain in solution, just like potassium or even the complexed
calcium you suggest is present when ericaceous fertilisers are used.

By what mechanism is this clogging supposed to occur? Where did you
get such an idea from?

Problems with certain epiphytic plants with high oxygen demand at the
roots. Belgian tapwater is incredibly hard even by Yorkshire standards.

Miracid and their ilk are much more effective at stabilising the calcium
in solution, but I still would not rely on it regularly for lime hating
pot plants.

Regards,
Martin Brown

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:02:49 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:


All is a bit of an exaggeration I will admit, but enough of the ones
nearest the surface to hamper oxygen diffusion (and in a plastic pot
that is pretty much where oxygen has to enter to get to the roots).


CO2 cuts some of it back to carbonate especially on the surface when the
dissolved salts get concentrated by evaporation. In really hard water
regions with dark compost you can see it happen over a couple of years
as the surface sets to a concrete like crust.



Problems with certain epiphytic plants with high oxygen demand at the
roots. Belgian tapwater is incredibly hard even by Yorkshire standards.

Miracid and their ilk are much more effective at stabilising the calcium
in solution, but I still would not rely on it regularly for lime hating
pot plants.

Regards,
Martin Brown


OK, I can see how a surface crust might build up over a long time and
under rather extreme circumstances, but not a problem I would expect
normally and with proper attention to surface cultivation.



--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net