I have got involved with a dog rescue organisation, and was thinking of
growing a few plants for a sale or ebaying to raise a little cash for them.
(I know it's a bit late this year, but I'm thinking about it now)

Now, most of the things I grow are tough little sods or they would not make
it through periods when I am not concentrating properly on gardening
(horror!)

In this category, I have an almost unkillable osteospermum, a specially
tough (it appears) sort of bizzy lizzy, a few random geraniums and
pelargoniums, the dratted ivyleaved toadflax, aquilegias, a creeping
campanula, convolvulus sabatius, loads of ferns, a couple of sorts of
strawberry, leycesteria formosa, not to mention the hawthorns and hollies
that scatter themselves annoyingly about in a prolific manner.

Now most of these things shlep around my garden making more of themselves
pretty much unaided. I have so much of them I often have to howk them out
and compost them. It seems like a good fundraising tactic to stick them in
pots instead and flog them at a fair or a car boot or something like that.

HOWEVER - I have no idea where I got many of these plants. Some of them
were found already at this house, others I took with me from previous
gardens I've owned or rented, or were given to me by their owners when I
admired them in passing.

But some of them *probably* at some point came from garden centres or
specialist growers and originally had those scary 'do not propagate from me
or we will despatch our winged monkeys of death' messages on them.

Is this a likely source of trouble? Would I be safer sticking to just
growing on seeds?

Victoria
--
gardening on a north-facing hill
in South-East Cornwall
--

In article ,
Victoria Clare writes:
|
| But some of them *probably* at some point came from garden centres or
| specialist growers and originally had those scary 'do not propagate from me
| or we will despatch our winged monkeys of death' messages on them.
|
| Is this a likely source of trouble? Would I be safer sticking to just
| growing on seeds?

If you aren't selling them as the named variety, no. An increasing
proportion of those signs are bogus, but even the ones that do refer
to genuine plant breeders' rights aren't likely to be enforced for
unidentified plants at a charity sale. However, it isn't allowed
in the latter case - though whether it applies to propagation by
self-seeding is most unclear.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick Maclaren wrote:

: In article ,
: Victoria Clare writes:
: |
: | But some of them *probably* at some point came from garden centres or
: | specialist growers and originally had those scary 'do not propagate from me
: | or we will despatch our winged monkeys of death' messages on them.
: |
: | Is this a likely source of trouble? Would I be safer sticking to just
: | growing on seeds?

: If you aren't selling them as the named variety, no. An increasing
: proportion of those signs are bogus, but even the ones that do refer
: to genuine plant breeders' rights aren't likely to be enforced for
: unidentified plants at a charity sale. However, it isn't allowed
: in the latter case - though whether it applies to propagation by
: self-seeding is most unclear.

Currently it can NEVER Apply to seed. It only applies to vegetative
propagation.

Jim

p.s. With the advent of Genetic engineering, I believe that seed bearing
the patented GM gene is covered and you could not seed save and grow
those. Though give the promiscuity of pollen, if you seed saved any
brassica within a 10mile radius of a GM Rape crop you'd have some of the
stuff in some of the seed!

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Victoria Clare writes:
|
| But some of them *probably* at some point came from garden centres or
| specialist growers and originally had those scary 'do not propagate from me
| or we will despatch our winged monkeys of death' messages on them.
|
| Is this a likely source of trouble? Would I be safer sticking to just
| growing on seeds?

If you aren't selling them as the named variety, no. An increasing
proportion of those signs are bogus, but even the ones that do refer
to genuine plant breeders' rights aren't likely to be enforced for
unidentified plants at a charity sale. However, it isn't allowed
in the latter case - though whether it applies to propagation by
self-seeding is most unclear.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

I would have thought that if they were spreading by seeding then they
would have possibly crossed with something else and would no longer be
pure to the 'protected' variety
--
Sue Begg
Remove my clothes to reply

Do not mess in the affairs of dragons - for
you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

In article ,
J Jackson writes:
|
| Currently it can NEVER Apply to seed. It only applies to vegetative
| propagation.

Ah. I wondered. But see below.

| p.s. With the advent of Genetic engineering, I believe that seed bearing
| the patented GM gene is covered and you could not seed save and grow
| those. Though give the promiscuity of pollen, if you seed saved any
| brassica within a 10mile radius of a GM Rape crop you'd have some of the
| stuff in some of the seed!

That does not apply in the UK. You can't patent a gene. Yet.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
Sue Begg writes:
|
| I would have thought that if they were spreading by seeding then they
| would have possibly crossed with something else and would no longer be
| pure to the 'protected' variety

It doesn't matter what a gardener, biologist or other semi-sane
person thinks; what matters is what the bureaucrats and lawyers
think.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes

In article ,
Sue Begg writes:
|
| I would have thought that if they were spreading by seeding then they
| would have possibly crossed with something else and would no longer be
| pure to the 'protected' variety

It doesn't matter what a gardener, biologist or other semi-sane
person thinks; what matters is what the bureaucrats and lawyers
think.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
There's probably a 'committee' involved there somewhere - and we know
what sanity they produce :-))
--
Sue Begg
Remove my clothes to reply

Do not mess in the affairs of dragons - for
you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

Nick Maclaren wrote:
:: In article ,
:: Sue Begg writes:
::::
:::: I would have thought that if they were spreading by seeding then
:::: they would have possibly crossed with something else and would
:::: no longer be pure to the 'protected' variety
::
:: It doesn't matter what a gardener, biologist or other semi-sane
:: person thinks; what matters is what the bureaucrats and lawyers
:: think.

God forbid anyone should take any notice of them!....I noticed a capital P
on a label stuck in some lobelia seedlings in the supermarket the other
day...the P is for protection! - it's just another 'jobs for the boys'
ruling like the ones where it's now illegal to replce a lightswitch in your
house, or replace a pane of glass.

- To the OP, do what you want, unless you are doing it on a grand scale
(anything larger than supplying a couple of greengrocers for example) you
won't get your collar felt.


--
If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs.

Phil L wrote:
Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Sue Begg writes:

I would have thought that if they were spreading by seeding
then
they would have possibly crossed with something else and would
no longer be pure to the 'protected' variety

It doesn't matter what a gardener, biologist or other semi-sane
person thinks; what matters is what the bureaucrats and lawyers
think.

God forbid anyone should take any notice of them!....I noticed a
capital P on a label stuck in some lobelia seedlings in the
supermarket the other day...the P is for protection! - it's just
another 'jobs for the boys' ruling

Well...but I hope you don't want plant breeding and selection to stop
altogether because it doesn't pay. That "job for the boys" is
somebody's by no means risk-free living, and is very likely the
result of years of experience and training.

like the ones where it's now
illegal to replce a lightswitch in your house, or replace a pane of
glass.

It is? OK, Officer, I surrender: you no doubt have a copy of the law
for me or my representative to read. I smell straight bananas,
wrapped (unhygienically and so perhaps illegally) in discarded pages
of the Daily Mail.

- To the OP, do what you want, unless you are doing it on a grand
scale (anything larger than supplying a couple of greengrocers for
example) you won't get your collar felt.

That at least is almost right. Nobody's going to hassle you for a few
plants from seed sold for a registered charity or even maybe a bit of
beer money; flog rooted cuttings to a High-Street shop, and I begin
to lose sympathy.

--
Mike.

"Phil L" wrote in message
k...
Nick Maclaren wrote:
:: In article ,
:: Sue Begg writes:
::::
:::: I would have thought that if they were spreading by seeding then
:::: they would have possibly crossed with something else and would
:::: no longer be pure to the 'protected' variety
::
:: It doesn't matter what a gardener, biologist or other semi-sane
:: person thinks; what matters is what the bureaucrats and lawyers
:: think.

God forbid anyone should take any notice of them!....I noticed a capital P
on a label stuck in some lobelia seedlings in the supermarket the other
day...the P is for protection! - it's just another 'jobs for the boys'
ruling like the ones where it's now illegal to replce a lightswitch in
your
house, or replace a pane of glass.

It's not illegal to replace a light switch. The new rules on electrical work
require the Local Authority's building control department to be told about
most electrical work but NOT repairs, replacements and other maintenance
work. Neither do they have to be told about the addition of extra power or
lighting points or other alterations to existing circuits unless these are
in a kitchen, bathroom or outside.

This "you need an electrician to change a bulb" stuff is a myth!

--
Neil

Visit my Peak District walking website - www.peakwalking.co.uk

In article ,
Mike Lyle wrote:
Phil L wrote:

God forbid anyone should take any notice of them!....I noticed a
capital P on a label stuck in some lobelia seedlings in the
supermarket the other day...the P is for protection! - it's just
another 'jobs for the boys' ruling

Well...but I hope you don't want plant breeding and selection to stop
altogether because it doesn't pay. That "job for the boys" is
somebody's by no means risk-free living, and is very likely the
result of years of experience and training.

It requires neither to stick such a notice onto a variety that has
been grown since time immemorial and, unfortunately, there is no
law against such deception. I have seen such notices on varieties
that I know were not covered by a valid Plant Breeders' Right.

That is a consequence of a one-sided law.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Mike Lyle wrote:
Phil L wrote:

God forbid anyone should take any notice of them!....I noticed a
capital P on a label stuck in some lobelia seedlings in the
supermarket the other day...the P is for protection! - it's just
another 'jobs for the boys' ruling

Well...but I hope you don't want plant breeding and selection to
stop
altogether because it doesn't pay. That "job for the boys" is
somebody's by no means risk-free living, and is very likely the
result of years of experience and training.

It requires neither to stick such a notice onto a variety that has
been grown since time immemorial and, unfortunately, there is no
law against such deception. I have seen such notices on varieties
that I know were not covered by a valid Plant Breeders' Right.

That is a consequence of a one-sided law.

I did say "Well..." I don't want an American drug company stealing
the rights to the neem tree any more than you do. There are limits,
though.

--
Mike.

Mike Lyle wrote:
:: Phil L wrote:
::: Nick Maclaren wrote:
::::: In article ,
::::: Sue Begg writes:
:::::::
::::::: I would have thought that if they were spreading by seeding
::::::: then they would have possibly crossed with something else and
::::::: would no longer be pure to the 'protected' variety
:::::
::::: It doesn't matter what a gardener, biologist or other semi-sane
::::: person thinks; what matters is what the bureaucrats and lawyers
::::: think.
:::
::: God forbid anyone should take any notice of them!....I noticed a
::: capital P on a label stuck in some lobelia seedlings in the
::: supermarket the other day...the P is for protection! - it's just
::: another 'jobs for the boys' ruling
::
:: Well...but I hope you don't want plant breeding and selection to
:: stop altogether because it doesn't pay. That "job for the boys" is
:: somebody's by no means risk-free living, and is very likely the
:: result of years of experience and training.

So?
My dad was a painter and decorator but he didn't pay the government to pass
a law stating that all DIY decorating should be banned.

::
::: like the ones where it's now
::: illegal to replce a lightswitch in your house, or replace a pane
::: of glass.
::
:: It is? OK, Officer, I surrender: you no doubt have a copy of the
:: law for me or my representative to read. I smell straight bananas,
:: wrapped (unhygienically and so perhaps illegally) in discarded
:: pages of the Daily Mail.

You have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical work and be a member
of 'FENSA' to replace glass...it's going the same way as plumbing....it's
all safety and who can argue against that? - maybe decorators *will* get a
law passed, based on the stupidity of the average person who thinks he can
reach 'if I just stand on this box....'

::
::: - To the OP, do what you want, unless you are doing it on a grand
::: scale (anything larger than supplying a couple of greengrocers for
::: example) you won't get your collar felt.
::
:: That at least is almost right. Nobody's going to hassle you for a
:: few plants from seed sold for a registered charity or even maybe a
:: bit of beer money; flog rooted cuttings to a High-Street shop, and
:: I begin to lose sympathy.

Why? - if I've had fuchsias growing for the past 20 years and decide to flog
12 dozen cuttings to the corner shop, what harm has been done? - his regular
supplier has lost a few quid?


--
If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs.

Phil L wrote:
Mike Lyle wrote:
Phil L wrote:
[...]
I noticed a
capital P on a label stuck in some lobelia seedlings in the
supermarket the other day...the P is for protection! - it's just
another 'jobs for the boys' ruling

Well...but I hope you don't want plant breeding and selection to
stop altogether because it doesn't pay. That "job for the boys"
is
somebody's by no means risk-free living, and is very likely the
result of years of experience and training.

So?
My dad was a painter and decorator but he didn't pay the government
to pass a law stating that all DIY decorating should be banned.

You are certainly far too intelligent to imagine that I'm not
intelligent enough to see why that's a load of dulux. So who is your
target audience?

like the ones where it's now
illegal to replce a lightswitch in your house, or replace a pane
of glass.

It is? OK, Officer, I surrender: you no doubt have a copy of the
law for me or my representative to read. I smell straight
bananas,
wrapped (unhygienically and so perhaps illegally) in discarded
pages of the Daily Mail.

You have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical work and be
a
member of 'FENSA' to replace glass...

Where? Since when? By whose rules?

it's going the same way as
plumbing....it's all safety and who can argue against that? -
maybe
decorators *will* get a law passed, based on the stupidity of the
average person who thinks he can reach 'if I just stand on this
box....'


- To the OP, do what you want, unless you are doing it on a
grand
scale (anything larger than supplying a couple of greengrocers
for
example) you won't get your collar felt.

That at least is almost right. Nobody's going to hassle you for a
few plants from seed sold for a registered charity or even maybe
a
bit of beer money; flog rooted cuttings to a High-Street shop,
and
I begin to lose sympathy.

Why? - if I've had fuchsias growing for the past 20 years and
decide
to flog 12 dozen cuttings to the corner shop, what harm has been
done? - his regular supplier has lost a few quid?

Again, if you follow urg you're surely far too intelligent to imagine
that that is what plant breeders' rights are about. So why say it?

--
Mike.

Mike Lyle wrote:
:: Phil L wrote:
::: Mike Lyle wrote:
::::: Phil L wrote:

::: So?
::: My dad was a painter and decorator but he didn't pay the
::: government to pass a law stating that all DIY decorating should
::: be banned.
::
:: You are certainly far too intelligent to imagine that I'm not
:: intelligent enough to see why that's a load of dulux. So who is
:: your target audience?
::

I don't know what your talking about here - I'm saying that DIY is a
free-for-all, whether it's decorating the lounge or taking cuttings from
your neighbours plants.


::: You have to be a qualified electrician to do electrical work and
::: be a member of 'FENSA' to replace glass...
::
:: Where? Since when? By whose rules?
::

In the UK. since April 2002. Building regulations.
http://www.fensa.co.uk/homeowners.html


:::
::: Why? - if I've had fuchsias growing for the past 20 years and
::: decide to flog 12 dozen cuttings to the corner shop, what harm
::: has been done? - his regular supplier has lost a few quid?
::
:: Again, if you follow urg you're surely far too intelligent to
:: imagine that that is what plant breeders' rights are about. So why
:: say it?

Err..I'm fairly new here and haven't got a clue what plant breeders rights
are, if they are anything like songwriters' copyrights etc, then I don't
think they have a leg to stand on, once something (whether it's Elton's new
track or a brand new bloom) is out 'in the wilderness', it's a free-for-all
again - you can't stop people from collecting seeds or taking cuttings so
why try?


--
If God had intended us to drink beer, He would have given us stomachs.