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#1
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OT The Murray-Darling Basin Plan
I don't really think this is OT but I have labelled it as such in case.
Many aspects of the future of this country are tied up in this - not the least of which is whether or not the ratbags in Canberra can ever put aside party politics to get on with actually governing. Here is the executive summary http://www.thebasinplan.mdba.gov.au/...cutive-summary One point to note about the process, as opposed to the content, is that both Parties voted for the Water Act of 2007 that specifies what the Commission must do. So any polly who now says the Commission is not doing what they should be doing is either ignorant or a liar or both. Similarly any who say there is a solution that will make everybody happy should go back on to their medication and preferably resign public office. I feel confident that we will now see a rush of populism as those who need to shore up shaky numbers will snatch some headlines by taking the part of the irrigators who are currently feeling pain whether or not it is in the irrigators' or the nation's long term interest to do so. David |
#2
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OT The Murray-Darling Basin Plan
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
... I don't really think this is OT but I have labelled it as such in case. Many aspects of the future of this country are tied up in this - not the least of which is whether or not the ratbags in Canberra can ever put aside party politics to get on with actually governing. Here is the executive summary http://www.thebasinplan.mdba.gov.au/...cutive-summary One point to note about the process, as opposed to the content, is that both Parties voted for the Water Act of 2007 that specifies what the Commission must do. So any polly who now says the Commission is not doing what they should be doing is either ignorant or a liar or both. Similarly any who say there is a solution that will make everybody happy should go back on to their medication and preferably resign public office. I feel confident that we will now see a rush of populism as those who need to shore up shaky numbers will snatch some headlines by taking the part of the irrigators who are currently feeling pain whether or not it is in the irrigators' or the nation's long term interest to do so. i suspect that if there were to be a noticably big rush of populism you'd have seen it by now (from the liberal party of course - not the nationals as they can't seem to manage to participate in big rushes of anything at all, really :-) it's not clear to me that any self-serving... oops, i mean, self-respecting politician is going to get too animated about a bunch of disrespectful angry rednecks having town meetings & putting on a bit of performance art when all that has happened is that the matter is finally open for discussion. there's no mass of public support either way really - which makes it hard to fit a definition of "populist", you must agree. on some level, everyone knows that if the river dies then all the towns along it are going to die anyway, water entitlements notwithstanding. there will always be groups of people who argue voraciously against their own self-interest (as well as the interests of everyone else) & it's frankly time to ignore that sort of carry-on in the pursuit of a solution that helps everyone & where everyone has to change some of their behaviours or expectations. being ridiculously optimistic at times, i hope to see such a solution at the end of this process! philosophically, it completely exasperates me that country people & farmers especially, long regarded as the biggest whingers the world has ever seen or ever will, are acting out that stereotype for the cameras yet again, & cannot gain anything at all by doing that, instead of trying to participate helpfully & help solve the problems for themselves & everyone else. i grew up in an irrigation area & there, whingeing is like fresh air or sunshine, they apparently need a little every day just to be going on with - it must be something in the water g. (i don't live in such an area now, & there's not much to whinge about here, except the local council :-) i am tired of such people purporting to be representative. we don't live in a world where it's just 1953 every day of one's life - it's time to move on & make some changes & make real plans for the future. thanks for listening to me whinge! g kylie p.s. i think bob katter is fairly adorable in many ways really, but i also disagree with the perennial idea (one of his personal favourites) that "rural areas" are all going to drop dead within weeks without endless subsidies, special treatment, big water entitlements, gobs of middle-class welfare, and so forth. if that were really true, the kindest thing to do would be to let them die, ... which i very much doubt would actually happen. it is probably past time to call the bluff of some of these people. the irrigators merely should be going first. |
#3
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OT The Murray-Darling Basin Plan
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
... I used to be a constituent of Bob's, he is not universally loved there, but he is a noisy axle (needs greasing). I admired his stand when the other 2 supposed rural reps went commo. I prefer to eat Australian rice, first the drought and now maybe faceless cityites will prevent that. I want this country to grow it's own food. Amen to that. That doesn't mean necessarily that we should grow all foods regardless of the climatic suitability or cost effectiveness of it. that's right. i'd rather buy australian any day, but _should_ we be buying australian rice? having said that, i think rice is about the only food we possibly should not be growing. there is somewhere in australia for every crop - it's offensive that other foods are imported when we grow it ourselves. at a minimum, food security is actually really important; "food miles" are an important consideration, and so forth. and to address the original issue, any irrigators who are growing (for example) wine grapes for export probably should just shut up right now. This is another continuing problem. Many towns and cities were established in the most fertile part of the region - usually near rivers. Our planning people keep allowing them to grow and plant houses instead of food. At some point the comparably little good soil we have in reasonable rainfall areas needs to be protected. Right now it is more profitable to dig it up for coal or subdivide for building lots. i think this is actually the more important issue here imo. farmland can NOT be given up for mcmansions or coal. THAT is obscene. how can this be allowed to happen??! kylie |
#4
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OT The Murray-Darling Basin Plan
"terryc" wrote in message
... SG1 wrote: The commo bit is my take on the 2 twits. When in a country electorate you ate least have some country leanings. The Snot (greens) & Labor have none at all. The snot want to lock all of the country up so we produce nothing. no they don't. they are inherently pro-australian farming for reasons of economic and food security, and in terms of the welfare of farmers themselves & rural communities in general. (i.e. they do NOT support petrochemical agri-corporation farming, they do NOT support farmland being flooded for dams, built up with mcmansions, or allowed to be destroyed by harmful farming practices.) furthermore, you'd have noticed a lot of country electorates have labor members. duh! terry c Whereas a **** like you just keeps preaching watermelon propaganda without really looking at the policies of parties. Unions are ditiching Labor and moving support to the greens as they are better for union members. The greens inherently support small business( = most family farmer?) they support all things country in general (famously forests, but also all the other stuff). the _perception_ of right-wing people who aren't paying attention is that they hate the country & country people. this idea is clearly delusional, however, the greens probably need to work a bit harder on correcting this misinterpretation - that's just the reality of politics. If you think their policies need fine tuning for the bush, join the party. At least they still have a system where their policies are decided by the party members and not back office party hacks. |
#5
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OT The Murray-Darling Basin Plan
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
... "0tterbot" wrote in message on some level, everyone knows that if the river dies then all the towns along it are going to die anyway, water entitlements notwithstanding. I'm so glad you mentioned 'some' level of knowledge. I think I'd rate that level of 'some' as being very low, even if everyone who spends a small amount of time thinking about the isue should recognise the truth of that river 'death'. All the bloody whingers give every appearance of being happy if it happens to someone else's town, someone else's job, someone else's farm - in fact anything so long as it's not them or theirs. yes. staggering, isn't it? the really bad bit being that they genuinely want to profit at someone else's expense! p.s. i think bob katter is fairly adorable in many ways really, Splutter!!!! He's as mad as a two bob watch. I admit that is part of his charm, but he's barmy. yeah, but so is tony abbott, & HE'S got no redeeming qualities whatsoever! i don't think total sanity has ever been a requirement for politics :-) some of bob's ideas are very good, & there's no doubt he genuinely means well (even when he is being bonky). he kind of undermines himself with the really out-there stuff, but i admire him for always being prepared to be out there, quite frankly. (i'm much less impressed with his wholesale revival of the pointless word "paradigm", but there it is). kylie |
#6
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OT The Murray-Darling Basin Plan
"terryc" wrote in message
... 0tterbot wrote: the irrigators merely should be going first. That could use a lot of fine tuning. The reason irrigation areas were set up in the first place was that not enough food could be grown from rainfall. i'm not sure about that. it's more likely to have been that in those locations, there was a resource to exploit & so they did. it has meant that no thought went into doing things alternatively. i should say, i don't have a problem with irrigation per se. it's a smart way to do more with less. what i object to is HOW it is done - for decades, it was done so heartbreakingly inefficiently that most of the water went anywhere but on the crop (those massive boom sprinklers that send out a fine mist - which apparently one is only allowed to use at midday in summer during a high wind ;-). by irrigating inefficiently, then naturally they are going to want to use great quantities of water that could & should stay in the river; so over-allocation has happened, to no net benefit in the end. Frankly, it isn't the irrigators that are the problems, but the pocket lining pollies, who should loose their pension over their creation of this catasstrophe. well, no. i'd suggest the irrigators are the problem :-) they've just been abetted by pollies selling water rights that simply shouldn't exist. A good start would be to put all irrigators on the same water supply levels, then factor down unessential irrigators (wine, export crops, massive mono cultres) as the need arises to ensure the rivers have a normal flow. which of those people are going to accept they are unessential? i personally would suggest that wine is unessential entirely, but then, i don't normally drink wine (although i bunged one on last night, so that's not completely true g ) if wine is unessential, then surely canola is as well! (olive oil being tastier, nutritious, & able to be grown dry). how do we decide?! where would it end? but your basic idea is a good one. i think what needs to happen is for the less-essential people to be able to make that decision for themselves. with time, that does seem to happen. they just need a hurry-up, but hurry-ups make them angry & defensive. sigh. kylie |
#7
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OT The Murray-Darling Basin Plan
"0tterbot" wrote in message .com... "David Hare-Scott" wrote in message ... I don't really think this is OT but I have labelled it as such in case. Many aspects of the future of this country are tied up in this - not the least of which is whether or not the ratbags in Canberra can ever put aside party politics to get on with actually governing. Here is the executive summary http://www.thebasinplan.mdba.gov.au/...cutive-summary One point to note about the process, as opposed to the content, is that both Parties voted for the Water Act of 2007 that specifies what the Commission must do. So any polly who now says the Commission is not doing what they should be doing is either ignorant or a liar or both. Similarly any who say there is a solution that will make everybody happy should go back on to their medication and preferably resign public office. I feel confident that we will now see a rush of populism as those who need to shore up shaky numbers will snatch some headlines by taking the part of the irrigators who are currently feeling pain whether or not it is in the irrigators' or the nation's long term interest to do so. i suspect that if there were to be a noticably big rush of populism you'd have seen it by now (from the liberal party of course - not the nationals as they can't seem to manage to participate in big rushes of anything at all, really :-) it's not clear to me that any self-serving... oops, i mean, self-respecting politician is going to get too animated about a bunch of disrespectful angry rednecks having town meetings & putting on a bit of performance art when all that has happened is that the matter is finally open for discussion. there's no mass of public support either way really - which makes it hard to fit a definition of "populist", you must agree. on some level, everyone knows that if the river dies then all the towns along it are going to die anyway, water entitlements notwithstanding. there will always be groups of people who argue voraciously against their own self-interest (as well as the interests of everyone else) & it's frankly time to ignore that sort of carry-on in the pursuit of a solution that helps everyone & where everyone has to change some of their behaviours or expectations. being ridiculously optimistic at times, i hope to see such a solution at the end of this process! philosophically, it completely exasperates me that country people & farmers especially, long regarded as the biggest whingers the world has ever seen or ever will, are acting out that stereotype for the cameras yet again, & cannot gain anything at all by doing that, instead of trying to participate helpfully & help solve the problems for themselves & everyone else. i grew up in an irrigation area & there, whingeing is like fresh air or sunshine, they apparently need a little every day just to be going on with - it must be something in the water g. (i don't live in such an area now, & there's not much to whinge about here, except the local council :-) i am tired of such people purporting to be representative. we don't live in a world where it's just 1953 every day of one's life - it's time to move on & make some changes & make real plans for the future. thanks for listening to me whinge! g kylie p.s. i think bob katter is fairly adorable in many ways really, but i also disagree with the perennial idea (one of his personal favourites) that "rural areas" are all going to drop dead within weeks without endless subsidies, special treatment, big water entitlements, gobs of middle-class welfare, and so forth. if that were really true, the kindest thing to do would be to let them die, ... which i very much doubt would actually happen. it is probably past time to call the bluff of some of these people. the irrigators merely should be going first. I used to be a constituent of Bob's, he is not universally loved there, but he is a noisy axle (needs greasing). I admired his stand when the other 2 supposed rural reps went commo. I prefer to eat Australian rice, first the drought and now maybe faceless cityites will prevent that. I want this country to grow it's own food. I do not support waste in any industry. I lived in the Victorian wheat belt for a while and in southern inland Qld as well as up north with Bob. We don't sell enuf overseas to be able to afford to be net importers of food. I am watching a local farmer increase the size of my little village by selling the odd paddock or 3 to developers. More people less productive land, catch 22????????? |
#8
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OT The Murray-Darling Basin Plan
SG1 wrote:
"0tterbot" wrote in message .com... "David Hare-Scott" wrote in message ... I don't really think this is OT but I have labelled it as such in case. Many aspects of the future of this country are tied up in this - not the least of which is whether or not the ratbags in Canberra can ever put aside party politics to get on with actually governing. Here is the executive summary http://www.thebasinplan.mdba.gov.au/...cutive-summary One point to note about the process, as opposed to the content, is that both Parties voted for the Water Act of 2007 that specifies what the Commission must do. So any polly who now says the Commission is not doing what they should be doing is either ignorant or a liar or both. Similarly any who say there is a solution that will make everybody happy should go back on to their medication and preferably resign public office. I feel confident that we will now see a rush of populism as those who need to shore up shaky numbers will snatch some headlines by taking the part of the irrigators who are currently feeling pain whether or not it is in the irrigators' or the nation's long term interest to do so. i suspect that if there were to be a noticably big rush of populism you'd have seen it by now (from the liberal party of course - not the nationals as they can't seem to manage to participate in big rushes of anything at all, really :-) it's not clear to me that any self-serving... oops, i mean, self-respecting politician is going to get too animated about a bunch of disrespectful angry rednecks having town meetings & putting on a bit of performance art when all that has happened is that the matter is finally open for discussion. there's no mass of public support either way really - which makes it hard to fit a definition of "populist", you must agree. on some level, everyone knows that if the river dies then all the towns along it are going to die anyway, water entitlements notwithstanding. there will always be groups of people who argue voraciously against their own self-interest (as well as the interests of everyone else) & it's frankly time to ignore that sort of carry-on in the pursuit of a solution that helps everyone & where everyone has to change some of their behaviours or expectations. being ridiculously optimistic at times, i hope to see such a solution at the end of this process! philosophically, it completely exasperates me that country people & farmers especially, long regarded as the biggest whingers the world has ever seen or ever will, are acting out that stereotype for the cameras yet again, & cannot gain anything at all by doing that, instead of trying to participate helpfully & help solve the problems for themselves & everyone else. i grew up in an irrigation area & there, whingeing is like fresh air or sunshine, they apparently need a little every day just to be going on with - it must be something in the water g. (i don't live in such an area now, & there's not much to whinge about here, except the local council :-) i am tired of such people purporting to be representative. we don't live in a world where it's just 1953 every day of one's life - it's time to move on & make some changes & make real plans for the future. thanks for listening to me whinge! g kylie p.s. i think bob katter is fairly adorable in many ways really, but i also disagree with the perennial idea (one of his personal favourites) that "rural areas" are all going to drop dead within weeks without endless subsidies, special treatment, big water entitlements, gobs of middle-class welfare, and so forth. if that were really true, the kindest thing to do would be to let them die, ... which i very much doubt would actually happen. it is probably past time to call the bluff of some of these people. the irrigators merely should be going first. I used to be a constituent of Bob's, he is not universally loved there, but he is a noisy axle (needs greasing). I admired his stand when the other 2 supposed rural reps went commo. I prefer to eat Australian rice, first the drought and now maybe faceless cityites will prevent that. I want this country to grow it's own food. Amen to that. That doesn't mean necessarily that we should grow all foods regardless of the climatic suitability or cost effectiveness of it. I do not support waste in any industry. I lived in the Victorian wheat belt for a while and in southern inland Qld as well as up north with Bob. We don't sell enuf overseas to be able to afford to be net importers of food. I am watching a local farmer increase the size of my little village by selling the odd paddock or 3 to developers. More people less productive land, catch 22????????? This is another continuing problem. Many towns and cities were established in the most fertile part of the region - usually near rivers. Our planning people keep allowing them to grow and plant houses instead of food. At some point the comparably little good soil we have in reasonable rainfall areas needs to be protected. Right now it is more profitable to dig it up for coal or subdivide for building lots. David |
#9
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OT The Murray-Darling Basin Plan
"0tterbot" wrote in message
on some level, everyone knows that if the river dies then all the towns along it are going to die anyway, water entitlements notwithstanding. I'm so glad you mentioned 'some' level of knowledge. I think I'd rate that level of 'some' as being very low, even if everyone who spends a small amount of time thinking about the isue should recognise the truth of that river 'death'. All the bloody whingers give every appearance of being happy if it happens to someone else's town, someone else's job, someone else's farm - in fact anything so long as it's not them or theirs. there will always be groups of people who argue voraciously against their own self-interest (as well as the interests of everyone else) & it's frankly time to ignore that sort of carry-on in the pursuit of a solution that helps everyone & where everyone has to change some of their behaviours or expectations. being ridiculously optimistic at times, i hope to see such a solution at the end of this process! philosophically, it completely exasperates me that country people & farmers especially, long regarded as the biggest whingers the world has ever seen or ever will, are acting out that stereotype for the cameras yet again, & cannot gain anything at all by doing that, instead of trying to participate helpfully & help solve the problems for themselves & everyone else. Yup! i grew up in an irrigation area & there, whingeing is like fresh air or sunshine, they apparently need a little every day just to be going on with - it must be something in the water g. (i don't live in such an area now, & there's not much to whinge about here, except the local council :-) i am tired of such people purporting to be representative. we don't live in a world where it's just 1953 every day of one's life - it's time to move on & make some changes & make real plans for the future. thanks for listening to me whinge! g kylie p.s. i think bob katter is fairly adorable in many ways really, Splutter!!!! He's as mad as a two bob watch. I admit that is part of his charm, but he's barmy. but i also disagree with the perennial idea (one of his personal favourites) that "rural areas" are all going to drop dead within weeks without endless subsidies, special treatment, big water entitlements, gobs of middle-class welfare, and so forth. if that were really true, the kindest thing to do would be to let them die, ... which i very much doubt would actually happen. it is probably past time to call the bluff of some of these people. the irrigators merely should be going first. Yup. |
#10
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OT The Murray-Darling Basin Plan
"SG1" wrote in message
I used to be a constituent of Bob's, he is not universally loved there, but he is a noisy axle (needs greasing). I admired his stand when the other 2 supposed rural reps went commo. LOL. Was poor old Katter silly enough to think they went commo? I didn't hear that report but I was rather busy during that immediate post election phase. I knew he was a silly sausage. |
#11
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OT The Murray-Darling Basin Plan
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message ... "SG1" wrote in message I used to be a constituent of Bob's, he is not universally loved there, but he is a noisy axle (needs greasing). I admired his stand when the other 2 supposed rural reps went commo. LOL. Was poor old Katter silly enough to think they went commo? I didn't hear that report but I was rather busy during that immediate post election phase. I knew he was a silly sausage. The commo bit is my take on the 2 twits. When in a country electorate you ate least have some country leanings. The Snot (greens) & Labor have none at all. The snot want to lock all of the country up so we produce nothing. |
#12
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OT The Murray-Darling Basin Plan
0tterbot wrote:
any irrigators who are growing (for example) wine grapes for export probably should just shut up right now. I think you will find that that is a major part of the water problem in NSW. The allocated water was not being fully utilised in NSW, so the NSW government sold it as high security water(first call) to people taking advantage of the exceptional tax lurks given by the government during the howard years(?) to the wine industry, which is basically all export industry. Rice at least is a staple food crop. also, All/most of the rice growing areas were established by the government to provide food security. We have a glut of cheap rice from overseas as global transport is cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap. |
#13
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OT The Murray-Darling Basin Plan
SG1 wrote:
The commo bit is my take on the 2 twits. When in a country electorate you ate least have some country leanings. The Snot (greens) & Labor have none at all. The snot want to lock all of the country up so we produce nothing. Whereas a **** like you just keeps preaching watermelon propaganda without really looking at the policies of parties. Unions are ditiching Labor and moving support to the greens as they are better for union members. The greens inherently support small business( = most family farmer?) If you think their policies need fine tuning for the bush, join the party. At least they still have a system where their policies are decided by the party members and not back office party hacks. |
#14
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OT The Murray-Darling Basin Plan
0tterbot wrote:
the irrigators merely should be going first. That could use a lot of fine tuning. The reason irrigation areas were set up in the first place was that not enough food could be grown from rainfall. Frankly, it isn't the irrigators that are the problems, but the pocket lining pollies, who should loose their pension over their creation of this catasstrophe. A good start would be to put all irrigators on the same water supply levels, then factor down unessential irrigators (wine, export crops, massive mono cultres) as the need arises to ensure the rivers have a normal flow. |
#15
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OT The Murray-Darling Basin Plan
terryc wrote:
0tterbot wrote: any irrigators who are growing (for example) wine grapes for export probably should just shut up right now. I think you will find that that is a major part of the water problem in NSW. The allocated water was not being fully utilised in NSW, so the NSW government sold it as high security water(first call) to people taking advantage of the exceptional tax lurks given by the government during the howard years(?) to the wine industry, which is basically all export industry. A major part of the problem is that water was administered by the States separately and historically they have over-allocated it, that is the allocations are so large that it is only in flood years that irrigators get 100%. This has been exacerbated in the last decade which has been very dry compared to the base periods when the optimistic allocations were made. Rice at least is a staple food crop. also, All/most of the rice growing areas were established by the government to provide food security. That may have been true in the middle 20th century, however most of it is now exported, production is quite seasonal but in good years we are big exporters of rice. Also on the scale of dollars earned per meglitre of irrigation water consumed rice is very low. Not to mention that the excess water that percollates away from rice fields in the MIA contributes to raising the water table and hence salinity problems. We have a glut of cheap rice from overseas as global transport is cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap. But it will not be so for very long. David |
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