I've been investigating "Superthrive" and may be purchasing some, but wanted
to hear the opinions of those who have used it before.

Do you use it? Does it live up to its promises? Can it really "Bring a
plant back from the brink"?

What's your opinion of Superthrive?


--
Regards,

Alexander Fraser
North of Toronto, Canada
USDA Zone 3B
CanSIS Zone 4A

Oh-Oh .... Here we go again.


Mark Hill - ducks, waiting for Jim's response !



-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of
Alexander Fraser
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 1:21 PM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Superthrive

I've been investigating "Superthrive" and may be purchasing some, but wanted
to hear the opinions of those who have used it before.

Do you use it? Does it live up to its promises? Can it really "Bring a
plant back from the brink"?

What's your opinion of Superthrive?


--
Regards,

Alexander Fraser
North of Toronto, Canada
USDA Zone 3B
CanSIS Zone 4A

************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Romano++++
************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Romano++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Alexander Fraser wrote:
I've been investigating "Superthrive" and may be purchasing some, but wanted
to hear the opinions of those who have used it before.

Do you use it?

No

Does it live up to its promises?

No

Can it really "Bring a plant back from the brink"?

No.


What's your opinion of Superthrive?

Pffft!

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Romano++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

This topic is surely a can of worms. Some consider it snake oil as they will not list their ingredients (to me it smells like vitaminB). Others swear by it.

Kits

"Mark Hill - President, EESiFlo Inc." wrote:
Oh-Oh .... Here we go again.


Mark Hill - ducks, waiting for Jim's response !



Alexander Fraser
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 1:21 PM

I've been investigating "Superthrive" and may be purchasing some, but wanted
to hear the opinions of those who have used it before.

Do you use it? Does it live up to its promises? Can it really "Bring a
plant back from the brink"?

What's your opinion of Superthrive?


--
Regards,



****
"Expectations are resentments under construction."

Anne Lamott

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Romano++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Don't mess around investigating something i'm sure we all use and believe in
it.
get a pint-in 6 months you will se an all around better looking trees.
IMHO makes a good mixer also.


Mike Rogers

New Address



www.rogersrarities.com

Cell
209-482-3023

DISCLAIMER
If you find a posting or message from myself
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please
ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting,
complain to me and I will demonstrate.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexander Fraser"
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 10:20 AM
Subject: [IBC] Superthrive


I've been investigating "Superthrive" and may be purchasing some, but
wanted
to hear the opinions of those who have used it before.

Do you use it? Does it live up to its promises? Can it really "Bring a
plant back from the brink"?

What's your opinion of Superthrive?


--
Regards,

Alexander Fraser
North of Toronto, Canada
USDA Zone 3B
CanSIS Zone 4A

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Romano++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Romano++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Alexander Fraser wrote:
I've been investigating "Superthrive" and may be purchasing some, but wanted
to hear the opinions of those who have used it before.

Do you use it? Does it live up to its promises? Can it really "Bring a
plant back from the brink"?

What's your opinion of Superthrive?

Only God can make Miracles I had a bad
repotting with a small pentaphilla used super and
another product 66F italian excellelnt it
helped the tree for 6 months and suddenly died (
looks like anyway )
I use Super thrive since 10 years and
plants never told me thanks but look nice
plants needs mainly to be cured the right way ...

--
theh bonsai in the 4 seasons
http://www.easybonsai.it

It makes a good mixer also.
What do you mix it in? Martinis? Mint juleps? The smell is enough to make
me regurgitate.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Rogers"
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 11:29 PM
Subject: [IBC] Superthrive


Don't mess around investigating something i'm sure we all use and believe
in
it.
get a pint-in 6 months you will se an all around better looking trees.
IMHO makes a good mixer also.


Mike Rogers

New Address



www.rogersrarities.com

Cell
209-482-3023

DISCLAIMER
If you find a posting or message from myself
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please
ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting,
complain to me and I will demonstrate.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexander Fraser"
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 10:20 AM
Subject: [IBC] Superthrive


I've been investigating "Superthrive" and may be purchasing some, but
wanted
to hear the opinions of those who have used it before.

Do you use it? Does it live up to its promises? Can it really "Bring a
plant back from the brink"?

What's your opinion of Superthrive?


--
Regards,

Alexander Fraser
North of Toronto, Canada
USDA Zone 3B
CanSIS Zone 4A

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Romano++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Romano++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Romano++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Don't mess around investigating something i'm sure we all use and
believe in it.

Not all of us, by *any* means. The basic ingredient --
determined by the odor only, because the S'thrive folks
refuse to let anyone test the ingredients -- is vitamin B.
Vitamin B has been shown by recent studies to HARM plants.
And, there's also the consideration that it is plants who
MAKE vitamins, while it is animals who USE them.

That should be enough to steer you away from it. The
secrecy surrounding it -- a prime indicator of the snake oil
salesman -- should also pull you away. Pig in a poke.

You will get NO benefits from Superthrive that you won't get
from otherwise good horticultural practices. That means,
adequate water, NPK and trace elements. Punct!

But . . . you WILL get a disproportionately large bite out
of your wallet or purse.

And "believe in it"? I was unaware that bonsai was a
faith-based hobby. :-)

If you believe in S'thrive, clap your hands????

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - People,
when Columbus discovered this country, it was plum full of
nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you (that) the
berries are just about all gone. -- Uncle Dave Macon, musician

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Romano++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

You will get NO benefits from Superthrive that you won't get from otherwise
good horticultural practices. That means, adequate water, NPK and trace
elements. Punct!

And your evidence is?

I agree there is a lot of secrecy about Superthrive, but there is a lot of
secrecy about many products, it's called proprietary information. Give that
away, everyone goes off and makes it and you lose your market. It's common
practice among many companies.

Personally I've observed the application of Superthrive give exceptionally
good results, when all else, water, fertilizer etc has failed. This is an
observation, not a scientific experiment though, but it's been enough to
convince me to keep using it. As a scientist, I'm not easily swayed by mere
observations, but the ones I've seen have been convincing.

Likewise, just because you haven't seen the same effects, or because you
don't know what is in it, doesn't mean it doesn't work either.

And yes, the claims on the bottle are huge, varied and over the top, but
that seems to be a common trait with companies on your side of the pond. I
should know, I work for one!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
To:
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 1:32 PM
Subject: [IBC] Superthrive


Don't mess around investigating something i'm sure we all use and
believe in it.

Not all of us, by *any* means. The basic ingredient --
determined by the odor only, because the S'thrive folks
refuse to let anyone test the ingredients -- is vitamin B.
Vitamin B has been shown by recent studies to HARM plants.
And, there's also the consideration that it is plants who
MAKE vitamins, while it is animals who USE them.

That should be enough to steer you away from it. The
secrecy surrounding it -- a prime indicator of the snake oil
salesman -- should also pull you away. Pig in a poke.

You will get NO benefits from Superthrive that you won't get
from otherwise good horticultural practices. That means,
adequate water, NPK and trace elements. Punct!

But . . . you WILL get a disproportionately large bite out
of your wallet or purse.

And "believe in it"? I was unaware that bonsai was a
faith-based hobby. :-)

If you believe in S'thrive, clap your hands????

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - People,
when Columbus discovered this country, it was plum full of
nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you (that) the
berries are just about all gone. -- Uncle Dave Macon, musician


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Romano++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++



************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Romano++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Mike Bennett wrote:
You will get NO benefits from Superthrive that you won't get from otherwise
good horticultural practices. That means, adequate water, NPK and trace
elements. Punct!

And your evidence is?

Things I grow -- not just bonsai. They're healthy, green,
flowering, fruiting, tasty. And not a drop of S'thrive, or
Roots I through XXV, or ANY vitamin, or even STP, :-) is
added to the 15-0-15 (garden) and 10-10-10 or 2-5-5 + trace
elements (bonsai) fertilizers I use.

and

Science that says vitamin B is harmful (check our archives
for sources -- others and I have cited them in the past, and
I don't want to extend this silliness too much longer).


I agree there is a lot of secrecy about Superthrive, but there is a lot of
secrecy about many products, it's called proprietary information. Give that
away, everyone goes off and makes it and you lose your market. It's common
practice among many companies.

It seems to be more than that. It's apparent refusal to
submit for govt. labeling requirements. Patents would cover
the ingredients list.

Anyway, the guy asked. I gave my more-or-less standard
snake-oil answer.

What he spends his money for now, is up to him.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - People,
when Columbus discovered this country, it was plum full of
nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you (that) the
berries are just about all gone. -- Uncle Dave Macon, musician

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Romano++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Lately I've been asked to speak to 9th graders about a career in
science, and it's depressing. Jobs in science in the next decades are
going to be filled by foreigners with good backgrounds in science, not
by the kind of students I've been seeing. Not the kids' fault; its our
fault for not teaching decent science.

All that is to explain why I always haul my carcase out when
Superthrive is discussed. I don't actually give a damn if someone uses
the stuff or not; I just need to defend the concept of experimentation.
Observation of what you think are positive results is just step one;
the next step is to test under controlled conditions to see if the
hypothesis holds up. The third step is for somebody else to repeat the
test independently. If you've ever read the newspaper, you know that
it's easy to "observe" something like an association of powerlines with
cancer- something that turns out not to be valid when studied
carefully. And you've also seen news stories about food x being linked
with illness y, and further study invalidating the original assertion.
That's OK- that's how science works.

Superthrive may or may not work, but no one has ever published data in
a peer-reviewed journal supporting the claims that are made.

Nina

PS- Thank you for letting me whine. Now I'm going to the lab where I'm
running my third trial to quantify Phytophthora sporangium production
on fallen leaf litter.

PPS- I just got back from a meeting where I saw that "Harry and David"
representative I had terrorized last year- I asked him if he had talked
to Harry and Dave about the shoddy mail-order bonsai, and he said he
*had*, and they were going to discontinue bonsai from their product
line. Not because of us, mind you, but because they weren't as popular
as Moose Munch.

Friends and Romans:

For decades, the Superthrive controversy has been aired privately and in public. The bottom line is that many do swear by it and many swear at it. To my knowledge, the manufacturer has not released any controlled experiments that corroborate the claims to greatness. Regardless, this DO NOT mean that you should not use it.

As for Roots, the manufacturer has many controlled experiments documented at Yale University. Most of you know that I am a believer in the Roots products (as are many golf courses and horticultural facilities). Root produces remarkable results with my trees, and my friends overseas also have the same results. In fact, many complain about the excessive potting required if it is used on a frequent basis.

My recommendation: if you can get both, buy Roots: use it to root collected materials, minimize transplant shock, and to reestablish root growth after repotting. (For inquiring minds: I am no longer endorsing the product in print, but I believe it is the real Mccoy.)

Of course, a healthy tree is only one component in the chain of activities leading to the creation of a living piece of art. Snake oil will not produce art in an of itself. );-)

Cordially,

Michael Persiano
members.aol.com/iasnob


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Lewis
To:
Sent: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:27:20 -0400
Subject: [IBC] Superthrive


Mike Bennett wrote:
You will get NO benefits from Superthrive that you won't get from otherwise
good horticultural practices. That means, adequate water, NPK and trace
elements. Punct!
And your evidence is?

Things I grow -- not just bonsai. They're healthy, green, flowering, fruiting, tasty. And not a drop of S'thrive, or Roots I through XXV, or ANY vitamin, or even STP, :-) is added to the 15-0-15 (garden) and 10-10-10 or 2-5-5 + trace elements (bonsai) fertilizers I use.

and

Science that says vitamin B is harmful (check our archives for sources -- others and I have cited them in the past, and I don't want to extend this silliness too much longer).

I agree there is a lot of secrecy about Superthrive, but there is a lot of
secrecy about many products, it's called proprietary information. Give that
away, everyone goes off and makes it and you lose your market. It's common
practice among many companies.

It seems to be more than that. It's apparent refusal to submit for govt. labeling requirements. Patents would cover the ingredients list.

Anyway, the guy asked. I gave my more-or-less standard snake-oil answer.

What he spends his money for now, is up to him.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plum full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you (that) the berries are just about all gone. -- Uncle Dave Macon, musician

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Romano++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Romano++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Michael Persiano wrote:
Hi Michael

My recommendation: if you can get both, buy Roots

Roots is a products brend has a site ?
Thanks

Tiziano