I'm finally getting caught up on magazine issues of all my subscriptions. Isn't that what Winter is for? I was reading through the Bonsai Today # 76 yesterday and the Marc Noelanders article on pg 25 really caught my eye.
First, I must admit that I'm often un-impressed during demos when a speaker takes a FANTASTIC Mother-nature styled, centuries old, collected yamadori ( which may already be established into a shallow pot) and while talking adds a little wire to a couple b
ranches, clips off a couple twigs, and carves a tiny bit and then steps back to receive the applause. Most of us have seen this although they might not say so.
I AM impressed when someone takes a discarded piece of crappy stock and turns it into a beautiful tree. A teacher I spent quite a bit of time with , Keith Scott, was one of those guys. I was often amazed at what he could turn junk into. Wonderful.
One of his common sayings which I've "stolen" is "Sometimes the magic works....and sometimes it doesn't"

The tree in this article ( BT76) was a stock juniper that I , thruthfully, wouldn't have given $5 for. I almost skipped through the article.The final styled tree is amazing, especially considering that his intended top died off 3 months after starting, ca
using him to re-think the style. I have seen Marc in programs and always thought he was pretty darn good and the magazine articles and book shots are always great, but this one really suprised me.
Now, I've not seen this tree in 3D and have no idea of it's health now, but...the styling is indeed superior ( IMO) from the stock supplied. I would use the term "Kimura-ish" but I believe that would take away from Noelanders' ingenuity. I'd be glad to
work in his garden anytime!
Regards,
Dale Cochoy, Wild Things Bonsai Studio, Hartville, Ohio
http://www.WildThingsBonsai.Com
Specializing in power wood carving tools.
Yakimono no Kokoro bonsai pottery of hand-built stoneware

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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I remember the article well and looked back on it after reading the
post. I had a mixed reaction when I originally read the article and
still do after exploring it again with your comments in mind.
The final results may look great but is it still a crappy tree? It is a
wonderful example of art but..........

Is it only a façade? Things hidden behind things etc.
The main trunk branches etc. are shaped but do they possess the
qualities of a good tree, as defined by our peers. Will this tree ever
grow into a good tree?
Of course I can only respond through pictures and would love to see the
tree in reality.

Anton
-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf
Of dalecochoy
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 8:46 AM
To:
Subject: [IBC] An interesting tree and great stylist

I'm finally getting caught up on magazine issues of all my
subscriptions. Isn't that what Winter is for? I was reading through the
Bonsai Today # 76 yesterday and the Marc Noelanders article on pg 25
really caught my eye.
First, I must admit that I'm often un-impressed during demos when a
speaker takes a FANTASTIC Mother-nature styled, centuries old,
collected yamadori ( which may already be established into a shallow
pot) and while talking adds a little wire to a couple branches, clips
off a couple twigs, and carves a tiny bit and then steps back to
receive the applause. Most of us have seen this although they might not
say so.
I AM impressed when someone takes a discarded piece of crappy stock and
turns it into a beautiful tree. A teacher I spent quite a bit of time
with , Keith Scott, was one of those guys. I was often amazed at what
he could turn junk into. Wonderful.
One of his common sayings which I've "stolen" is "Sometimes the magic
works....and sometimes it doesn't"

The tree in this article ( BT76) was a stock juniper that I ,
thruthfully, wouldn't have given $5 for. I almost skipped through the
article.The final styled tree is amazing, especially considering that
his intended top died off 3 months after starting, causing him to
re-think the style. I have seen Marc in programs and always thought he
was pretty darn good and the magazine articles and book shots are always
great, but this one really suprised me.
Now, I've not seen this tree in 3D and have no idea of it's health now,
but...the styling is indeed superior ( IMO) from the stock supplied. I
would use the term "Kimura-ish" but I believe that would take away from
Noelanders' ingenuity. I'd be glad to work in his garden anytime!
Regards,
Dale Cochoy, Wild Things Bonsai Studio, Hartville, Ohio

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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Anton Nijhuis wrote:

I remember the article well and looked back on it after reading the
post. I had a mixed reaction when I originally read the article and
still do after exploring it again with your comments in mind.
The final results may look great but is it still a crappy tree? It is a
wonderful example of art but..........

Is it only a façade? Things hidden behind things etc.
The main trunk branches etc. are shaped but do they possess the
qualities of a good tree, as defined by our peers. Will this tree ever
grow into a good tree?
Of course I can only respond through pictures and would love to see the
tree in reality.

This is probably a big difference between european and american artists.
Americans tend to be more influenced and probably more inhibited by
classic japanese bonsai, even more so then the japanese, this is
probably due to the fact of lots of japanese imigrants in the US. I
can´t say if it´s good or bad.
This way of styling bonsai is accepted in Europe. It gives new
possibilitys, what else could have been done with the tree in the article?
One must also ask what is OK what is not, after all there is always a
bit of illusion in bonsai styling. I´v seen a fantastic classic bonsai
in BT where they wired all the secondary back branches on a big branch
to the front, to make the foliage cloud look fuller. Looking at the tree
from the front it looked great. From the side, maybe not so much. If it
looks good it looks good, it is as simple as that. It is the end result
that matters not how it was created. It would almost be like saying: "I
don´t like this tree because when I saw it in training it was poorly
wired."
I also think there is a 3D perspective to take in account. Some trees,
like a bunjin can probably look good from all sides. I´ve seen trees
that has two fronts. And there are probably formal upright trees wich
must be seen from the absolut front where a few ° makes a difference.
I´m not always fond of this kind of work. Sometimes the end result is
just a green blob on a trunk but like Dales teacher said: "Sometimes the
magic works....and sometimes it doesn't" ;-)

Henrik Gistvall, Uppsala, Sweden

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Henrik,
I'm glad I waited to respond until I got to your mail in my list. Many
things I was going to say...you did...so I won't! :)
To call it a "crappy" tree is surely not what I'd call accurate, but, Anton
is certainly welcome to his opinion. I've seen crappy, and I don't believe
this is it! Whether you really like the final styling ( as I do) or not you
still MUST agree that the foresight, planning, execution, and replaining
after proposed top died) is excellent. I'm a BIG fan of European bonsai and
the European Bonsai magazine by Farrand Bloch is the best out there ( in my
opinion). I doubly enjoy it because everything they work on, I work on and
grows here in Ohio. This styling is very common in the Euro Bonsai mag and
we often see long branches moved around the trunk to lower apex and fill-in
sides. This is mostly hidden by foliage but, can be seen sometimes by
looking up underneath the canopy. We don't really do this type of styling
much in the US but I think the results are wonderful. Again, this type of
styling is OFTEN seen in Kimura-styled trees. If you can get a copy of the
Euro bonsai mag you'll notice a more advanced ( again, my opinion) form of
styling and pot selection than I think you see here. Why, I couldn't say,
I've never been over there to check it out! They have many well trained
bonsai people, competitions and studios. It seems to pay off, in my
opinion.!
Regards,
Dale

----- Original Message -----
From: "Henrik Gistvall"
Subject: [IBC] An interesting tree and great stylist


Anton Nijhuis wrote:
I remember the article well and looked back on it after reading the
post. I had a mixed reaction when I originally read the article and
still do after exploring it again with your comments in mind.
The final results may look great but is it still a crappy tree? It is a
wonderful example of art but..........
Is it only a façade? Things hidden behind things etc.
The main trunk branches etc. are shaped but do they possess the
qualities of a good tree, as defined by our peers. Will this tree ever
grow into a good tree?
Of course I can only respond through pictures and would love to see the
tree in reality.


This is probably a big difference between european and american artists.
Americans tend to be more influenced and probably more inhibited by
classic japanese bonsai, even more so then the japanese, this is
probably due to the fact of lots of japanese imigrants in the US. I
can´t say if it´s good or bad.
This way of styling bonsai is accepted in Europe. It gives new
possibilitys, what else could have been done with the tree in the article?
One must also ask what is OK what is not, after all there is always a
bit of illusion in bonsai styling. I´v seen a fantastic classic bonsai
in BT where they wired all the secondary back branches on a big branch
to the front, to make the foliage cloud look fuller. Looking at the tree
from the front it looked great. From the side, maybe not so much. If it
looks good it looks good, it is as simple as that. It is the end result
that matters not how it was created. It would almost be like saying: "I
don´t like this tree because when I saw it in training it was poorly
wired."
I also think there is a 3D perspective to take in account. Some trees,
like a bunjin can probably look good from all sides. I´ve seen trees
that has two fronts. And there are probably formal upright trees wich
must be seen from the absolut front where a few ° makes a difference.
I´m not always fond of this kind of work. Sometimes the end result is
just a green blob on a trunk but like Dales teacher said: "Sometimes the
magic works....and sometimes it doesn't" ;-)

Henrik Gistvall, Uppsala, Sweden

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I remember the article well and looked back on it after reading
the
post. I had a mixed reaction when I originally read the article
and
still do after exploring it again with your comments in mind.
The final results may look great but is it still a crappy tree?
It is a
wonderful example of art but..........

Is it only a façade? Things hidden behind things etc.
The main trunk branches etc. are shaped but do they possess the
qualities of a good tree, as defined by our peers. Will this tree
ever
grow into a good tree?
Of course I can only respond through pictures and would love to
see the
tree in reality.

Anton

============

This was pretty much MY reaction, too. It's a bit like making a
COTTON purse out of a sow's ear.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
Subject: [IBC] An interesting tree and great stylist


I had a mixed reaction when I originally read the article
and
still do after exploring it again with your comments in mind.
The final results may look great but is it still a crappy tree?

Is it only a façade? Things hidden behind things etc.
The main trunk branches etc. are shaped but do they possess the
qualities of a good tree, as defined by our peers. Will this tree
ever
grow into a good tree?
Anton

============

This was pretty much MY reaction, too. It's a bit like making a
COTTON purse out of a sow's ear.

Jim Lewis

:)
Well...that settles it. Apparently you guys are WAY out of my league ( and
Marc Noelanders' also I guess). Jim, do you have some free time for me to
come down and study with you this Summer?? Perhaps you can show me how to
turn my "sow's ears" into cotton purses?
Regards,
Dale Cochoy, Wild Things Bonsai Studio, Hartville, Ohio
http://www.WildThingsBonsai.Com
Specializing in power wood carving tools.
Yakimono no Kokoro bonsai pottery of hand-built stoneware

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Hi guys,
I wasn't going to be tempted into reaction but.....
I haven't seen the tree this is about but I think I can imagine what you are
talking about.
For starters Marc does have a Japanese training background .
As bonsai started to develope over here we did not have access to all of
that great yamadori material as you have in USA or the material you find in
Japan.What we did have was a lot of
greeneries so.....We were forced to let our imagination work with what we
had available.
This once caused Mr. Kimura to say that specificly that would be the reason
he expected bonsai in Europe would take such a high flight.
Another point is the hiding off.....I once asked an elderly Japanese Master
what it was that made the value of a tree????
He answered me that this was the way its faults were hidden or transferred.
Point three, what about developing a tree over years and years to come.
The curly bit is only to get the foliage back to the trunk and still look a
little attractive from the first styling on. Also to leave enough
possibilities open to make changes if necessary as the tree developes or not
over the years(as was here I think when the apex died).
The intention is that you do cut back year after year which in due time will
lessen the amount of curls in a branch and depending on which one developes
best also the selection of branches.
I am surprised to see that where patience and amount of time to develope a
tree is always the first thing people tell the newbies, people seem to
forget that this still applies when you are doing bonsai a little longer.

The matter of taste is nondiscussable but just imagine what you would do
yourself with the starting material?????
Just a few thaughts.


Elize Marie mann
Epe Holland

----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: dalecochoy
Aan:
Verzonden: woensdag 26 februari 2003 4:12
Onderwerp: [IBC] An interesting tree and great stylist


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
Subject: [IBC] An interesting tree and great stylist


I had a mixed reaction when I originally read the article
and
still do after exploring it again with your comments in mind.
The final results may look great but is it still a crappy tree?

Is it only a façade? Things hidden behind things etc.
The main trunk branches etc. are shaped but do they possess the
qualities of a good tree, as defined by our peers. Will this tree
ever
grow into a good tree?
Anton

============

This was pretty much MY reaction, too. It's a bit like making a
COTTON purse out of a sow's ear.

Jim Lewis

:)
Well...that settles it. Apparently you guys are WAY out of my league ( and
Marc Noelanders' also I guess). Jim, do you have some free time for me to
come down and study with you this Summer?? Perhaps you can show me how to
turn my "sow's ears" into cotton purses?
Regards,
Dale Cochoy, Wild Things Bonsai Studio, Hartville, Ohio
http://www.WildThingsBonsai.Com
Specializing in power wood carving tools.
Yakimono no Kokoro bonsai pottery of hand-built stoneware


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
Subject: [IBC] An interesting tree and great stylist


I had a mixed reaction when I originally read the article
and
still do after exploring it again with your comments in mind.
The final results may look great but is it still a crappy
tree?

Is it only a façade? Things hidden behind things etc.
The main trunk branches etc. are shaped but do they possess
the
qualities of a good tree, as defined by our peers. Will this
tree
ever
grow into a good tree?
Anton

============

This was pretty much MY reaction, too. It's a bit like
making a
COTTON purse out of a sow's ear.

Jim Lewis

:)
Well...that settles it. Apparently you guys are WAY out of my
league ( and
Marc Noelanders' also I guess). Jim, do you have some free
time for me to
come down and study with you this Summer?? Perhaps you can show
me how to
turn my "sow's ears" into cotton purses?

Nope. Not many folks would want to study with me.

However, I do know what a good tree should look like, and in MY
opinion (yours obviously differs -- as do the opinions of the
editors of the magazine) that one is a mediocre tree. He did
wonders with junky starting material, but -- other than the need
to produce an article -- I wonder why he even started on it in
the first place.

As in any art form, Dale, each viewer will have a different take
on the product. Some folks think Andy Warhol's stuff is
marvelous. _I_ think he suckered a lot of people into buying
crap. I know folks who think Miro's work stinks. _I_ buy all I
can find (and afford). Matter of opinion.

You got yours; I got mine. We're each entitled to it and (to a
limited extent, at least), entitled to express it.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++