Wow! What great responses I received to my inquiry. I'm very grateful
to all who responded for your comments and guidance.

I believe the plant that I received was the plant in the pictures.
However, the pictures did not properly disclose the interior branch
structure with big branches cut off to cause sprouting below of leaves
that hid the butcher job.

I have been in contact with the seller. He has offered to send another
plant free - not because of the question about whether or not this is a
bonsai but because it was terribly packed. There was no packing around
the pot, the dirt and the root ball. There were no Styrofoam peanuts to
protect the upper part of the plant. The pot had been emptied of dirt
and the plant was lying loose in the box.

The seller has assured me that he is changing his packing methods. I
expect him to be offering similar plants in the future on eBay. That is
what really concens me - people will see my feedback and be taken in as
I was. Perhaps I won't leave any feedback. But at least, from your
comments, I won't describe what he offers as not a bonsai.

Perhaps technically his definition is okay and the plant corresponds to
his definition. But it is nothing like what I have purchased on eBay
very successfully.

I have purchased 8 to 10 plants on eBay in the two last months as I
began exploring this world of bonsai. I have been extremely pleased with
all but this plant. The pricing and the packing and shipping of these
plants have been very good. There has been some obvious travel shock on
some of the plans but they have rebounded nicely. And there was no way
I could have purchased locally (only junipers sold on the street corner)
the variety of beautiful plants I've bot from competent and helpful
vendors on eBay.

Thanks again for all the great assistance. As I study and learn how to
care for these beautiful plants I'm sure I'll need more help and you all
are a great group to ask.

Mark R. Ensign
Amarillo, TX

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I have purchased 8 to 10 plants on eBay in the two last months
as I
began exploring this world of bonsai. I have been extremely
pleased with
all but this plant. The pricing and the packing and shipping of
these
plants have been very good. There has been some obvious travel
shock on
some of the plans but they have rebounded nicely. And there
was no way
I could have purchased locally (only junipers sold on the
street corner)
the variety of beautiful plants I've bot from competent and
helpful
vendors on eBay.

Thanks again for all the great assistance. As I study and
learn how to
care for these beautiful plants I'm sure I'll need more help
and you all
are a great group to ask.

Mark R. Ensign
Amarillo, TX

Surely, there are nurseries selling plants (including tropicals)
in Amarillo -- not just street-corner bonsai. You will _always_
get better quality (health and vigor), and larger, plants locally
for less money, especially after shipping costs are added. And
if these plants aren't "bonsai" to start with, you can at least
have the honor (delight!) of creating your _own_ starting shape
for your tree. Even Home Depot and Wal-Mart will have
better-quality stock than e-bay -- and that's saying a lot (for
me).

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

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Jim,

What you say simply is not true. Perhaps you mean that HD and W-M "may"
have better quality stock than Ebay at any given time. There are often
quality trees offered for sale on Ebay - and very often at great prices. I
have sold several quality bonsai on Ebay, all at great prices, and the
shipping is _always_ less than the actual shipping cost (a great deal for
the buyer).

This whole business about Ebay being a venue for crapola at too-high prices
is merely an exaggeration of what "can" be found there. The variety in
quality found on Ebay is virtually identical to that found in
brick-and-mortar bonsai shops. The pricing is often much better, regardless
of the quality.

It is a given that caveat emptor is the rule of the day no matter where you
shop. Yes, it is not hard for one to be taken advantage of on Ebay, but the
same is true at many brick-and-mortar shops, but not if you have an idea of
what you're looking for, where the potential surprises are. The beginning
enthusiast/buyer stands to find sales traps anywhere and the experienced
enthusiast/buyer stands to have better success - no matter the location or
circumstances. Heaping blame and disparaging remarks on Ebay as the cause
of the trouble is unfair and misleading.

For every ridiculous listing I've seen on Ebay, I've seen equally ridiculous
offerings at brick-and-mortar bonsai shops. There are excellent vendors on
Ebay and awful vendors on Ebay - just as can be found anywhere else.
Heaping all Ebay vendors into the "crapola" pile is unfair and malicious.
Try not to purposefully mislead people here, Jim. This is supposed to be a
valuable resource for enthusiasts on the Internet, not a prejudice
indoctrination school.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/ :: living bonsai every day
zone 8, Texas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
Surely, there are nurseries selling plants (including tropicals)
in Amarillo -- not just street-corner bonsai. You will _always_
get better quality (health and vigor), and larger, plants locally
for less money, especially after shipping costs are added. And
if these plants aren't "bonsai" to start with, you can at least
have the honor (delight!) of creating your _own_ starting shape
for your tree. Even Home Depot and Wal-Mart will have
better-quality stock than e-bay -- and that's saying a lot (for
me).
Jim Lewis

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I bought a figurine on e-Bay that was lovely & reasonably priced. I bought a
pair that I couldn't really tell much about from the picture & they are
hideous. I bought a kitchen wrap dispenser on e-Bay that was overpriced junk &
the rolls don't even fit in it. She won't take it back because we don't have
the original box.
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark R. Ensign"
Subject: [IBC] Is this a Bonsai?


Perhaps someone in Texas could help Mark out with a reliable bonsai dealer
near Amarillo?
I can't imagine having an "eBay Bonsai Collection"!
sigh....
Regards,
Dale Cochoy



I have purchased 8 to 10 plants on eBay in the two last months as I
began exploring this world of bonsai. I have been extremely pleased with
all but this plant. The pricing and the packing and shipping of these
plants have been very good. There has been some obvious travel shock on
some of the plans but they have rebounded nicely. And there was no way
I could have purchased locally (only junipers sold on the street corner

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Yes, before Ebay came along, there was no such thing as bad purchases and
poor quality. Is that you point?

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/ :: living bonsai every day
zone 8, Texas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Iris Cohen"
I bought a figurine on e-Bay that was lovely & reasonably priced. I bought
a
pair that I couldn't really tell much about from the picture & they are
hideous. I bought a kitchen wrap dispenser on e-Bay that was overpriced
junk &
the rolls don't even fit in it. She won't take it back because we don't
have
the original box.
Iris

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++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

"Mark R. Ensign" wrote:

Wow! What great responses I received to my inquiry. I'm very grateful
to all who responded for your comments and guidance.

snip

The seller has assured me that he is changing his packing methods. I
expect him to be offering similar plants in the future on eBay. That is
what really concens me - people will see my feedback and be taken in as
I was. Perhaps I won't leave any feedback. But at least, from your
comments, I won't describe what he offers as not a bonsai.


Definitely put in negative feedback in capital letters. If it happens enough
they'll kick his sorry butt out!


Perhaps technically his definition is okay and the plant corresponds to
his definition. But it is nothing like what I have purchased on eBay
very successfully.

I have purchased 8 to 10 plants on eBay in the two last months as I
began exploring this world of bonsai.

I bought a few plants on eBay when I first started. Only one survived, but that
was beause of my ineptitude, not the seller. The seller actually was very good.
The one that survived was a S. African puzzle bush (Ehretia rigida) which is still
humming along three years later. Don't buy anything over eBay. You are taking a
chance, as you have discovered. There *must* be some kind of garden center near
you. And, there are some really good bonsai people in Texas too who can help
you. Leave eBay for baseball cards and that sort of thing.

snip

Mark R. Ensign
Amarillo, TX


Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Andy Rutledge wrote:

Yes, before Ebay came along, there was no such thing as bad purchases and
poor quality. Is that you point?

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/ :: living bonsai every day
zone 8, Texas


Obviously there was such a thing, but there certainly was mail-order, which is the
same situation--buying something sight unseen. When you buy something sight unseen
from a person of unknown reputation you are taking a chance. EBay actually makes
it more possible for people to be dishonest because any private individual can get
on. Of course it isn't all bad, but there is a lot of hype on eBay, and there are
certainly plenty of unscrupulous individuals ready to take advantange of honest,
unsuspecting people.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Well said, Andy!

I (really) couldn't have said it better myself.

(I guess that's why you're a writer and I'm not.)

Can't emphasize the Buyer Beware too much, but the vast majority of folks I
have dealt with (on eBay and elsewhere) are honest and well-meaning.

I have made dozens of purchases from eBay vendors and am more than happy
with the vast majority of them. I also have sold items, generally at prices
that were fair, and many times below my expectations, including new items
bought to explore a sideline business.

As for you, Jim, you shouldn't pass it up when you need to sell an old
computer! :-)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Rutledge"
To:
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 9:58 AM
Subject: [IBC] Is this a Bonsai?


Jim,

What you say simply is not true. Perhaps you mean that HD and W-M "may"
have better quality stock than Ebay at any given time. There are often
quality trees offered for sale on Ebay - and very often at great prices.
I
have sold several quality bonsai on Ebay, all at great prices, and the
shipping is _always_ less than the actual shipping cost (a great deal for
the buyer).

This whole business about Ebay being a venue for crapola at too-high
prices
is merely an exaggeration of what "can" be found there. The variety in
quality found on Ebay is virtually identical to that found in
brick-and-mortar bonsai shops. The pricing is often much better,
regardless
of the quality.

It is a given that caveat emptor is the rule of the day no matter where
you
shop. Yes, it is not hard for one to be taken advantage of on Ebay, but
the
same is true at many brick-and-mortar shops, but not if you have an idea
of
what you're looking for, where the potential surprises are. The beginning
enthusiast/buyer stands to find sales traps anywhere and the experienced
enthusiast/buyer stands to have better success - no matter the location or
circumstances. Heaping blame and disparaging remarks on Ebay as the cause
of the trouble is unfair and misleading.

For every ridiculous listing I've seen on Ebay, I've seen equally
ridiculous
offerings at brick-and-mortar bonsai shops. There are excellent vendors
on
Ebay and awful vendors on Ebay - just as can be found anywhere else.
Heaping all Ebay vendors into the "crapola" pile is unfair and malicious.
Try not to purposefully mislead people here, Jim. This is supposed to be
a
valuable resource for enthusiasts on the Internet, not a prejudice
indoctrination school.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.bonsai365.com/ :: living bonsai every day
zone 8, Texas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
Surely, there are nurseries selling plants (including tropicals)
in Amarillo -- not just street-corner bonsai. You will _always_
get better quality (health and vigor), and larger, plants locally
for less money, especially after shipping costs are added. And
if these plants aren't "bonsai" to start with, you can at least
have the honor (delight!) of creating your _own_ starting shape
for your tree. Even Home Depot and Wal-Mart will have
better-quality stock than e-bay -- and that's saying a lot (for
me).
Jim Lewis


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


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************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Hello, friends.

As I'm on the digest version I only get messages once a day so my
responses are a bit dated.

I didn't mean to start a big debate about eBay. But after over 70
purchases, a dozen of bonsai or related productes, I've only had 2 bad
experiences. The Bonsai I've purchased have been, in my mind, great
bargains and are doing well - save one. I've saved literally thousands
of dollars on items for my law practice and personal use. It is a true
and efficient open marketplace. As always, Caveat Emptor - investigate,
research and be cautious but save $$$ if careful. OK - end of eBay
comments.

Thanks to the comments of one contributor, I've received an e-mail from
another Bonsai enthusiast who spends some time in Amarillo. I'll be
making contact. But believe me there are precious few Bonsai interested
persons or sources here.

Thanks for all the assistance to me and others seeking help on this list.

Mark R. Ensign
Amarillo, TX

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++