Roger Snipes wrote:

Many, if not all, endeavors, hobbies, professions, etc., have their own
jargon. Learning and using the jargon ensures that everyone who is a part
of the activity knows what others are talking about. Why should we resist
using the jargon of bonsai, only to replace it with common terms that may or
may not clearly describe what we are talking about. Should doctors,
engineers, football players, musicians, etc., dump the jargon of their
respective endeavors? Or, should participants in the sport of bonsai learn
and use the jargon of bonsai?

Regards,
Roger Snipes Spokane, WA Zone 5, or maybe Zone 6.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it,
and then misapplying the wrong remedies. Groucho Marx (1895-1977)


I don't think the question is whether the terminology is appropriate in-house, but
whether it is a good idea to have an arcane set of terms from a foreign language
that one must learn to be initiated. I feel that "root base" adequately describes
what a "nebari" is, for instance. FWIW.

Craig Cowing
NY
zone 5b/6a sunset 37

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Actually I think of nebari as the transition from the trunk to the roots.
Trunk base is little more accurate than root base in my opinion since the
base of the roots is perhaps in the bottom of the pot (I seem to remember
that tag... is the Japanese term for the lower trunk). Another option for
nebari in my opinion is "root spread across the soil", but that starts to
get long.

I tend to agree with the posters in favor of using some Japanese terms in
that it can sometimes be a very concise word to describe the concept that
can fit in to any language that uses the roman alphabet. If I could only
write it in kanji or hiragana (spelling on both) I would probably feel the
other way. I also feel that including some of the terms from Japanese (and
Chinese) pays homage to the origins of the art of bonsai. On the other
hand, I think of most of the styles in American English terms - i.e.
informal upright, so I am not a purist.

There are probably a small number of terms from Japanese and Chinese that
most bonsai/penjing practitioners will use in favor of the equivalent in
their native tongue (unless they are native Japanese/Chinese speakers).
Bonsai is obvious, nebari, jin, shohin/mame, and literati quickly come to
mind. What are some of the others (those who have studied Japanese or
Chinese must be careful in their responses).

However, we also want to make sure that we don't drive folks that are new to
the hobby/art/obsession off by only using non-native language terms. When I
teach I carefully define the Japanese terms I choose to use and state that
it is my preference to use them because I feel it conveys the idea better
than the American English description, but that the students are free to use
language with which they are more comfortable.

Regards - Marty

PS I think for yamadori as "collected from the wild" and would generally not
include some of the overgrown urban/suburban things I have dug as yamadori.

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of
Craig Cowing
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 7:54 PM
To:
Subject: [IBC] "yamadori" boxwood

I don't think the question is whether the terminology is appropriate
in-house, but
whether it is a good idea to have an arcane set of terms from a foreign
language
that one must learn to be initiated. I feel that "root base" adequately
describes
what a "nebari" is, for instance. FWIW.

Craig Cowing
NY
zone 5b/6a sunset 37

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Yama means picked, dori means mountain.
Kitsune Miko


Well, it seems that I drink 'yamadori' coffee. :-)

Jay Wilson

From: "Jim Lewis"
snip
Maybe Lenz, perhaps the only one (that I know of)
who's really trying (and sometimes successfully) to break the
mold, has a good word for our sport. (?)
Jim Lewis
------------------

Actually, Nick just calls it the art of "banzai bush."


Hmmmm.

However, it's good to know there still are people out there. I
was wondering if everyone had lost their typing fingers (in lieu
of tongue).

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - "Words,
words, mere words, no matter from the heart." Shakespeare -
Troilus and Cressida

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There are probably a small number of terms from Japanese and
Chinese that
most bonsai/penjing practitioners will use in favor of the
equivalent in
their native tongue (unless they are native Japanese/Chinese
speakers).
Bonsai is obvious, nebari, jin, shohin/mame, and literati quickly
come to
mind.

=============================

Big grin :-)

In MY dictionary(ies), "literati" is from the Latin. "Bunjin" is
the Japanese term, ne?

And, of course, there's nothing wrong with learning the terms;
it's how rashly they tend to be tossed around that's the problem.
Some poor bonsai wannabe coming into a workshop and hearing, "The
nebari on this shohin bunjun yamadori Seigen-momji is weak," is
likely to run screaming from the room.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - POLONIUS:
"What do you read, my lord?"

HAMLET: "Words, words, words."

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Cowing"

I don't think the question is whether the terminology is appropriate
in-house, but
whether it is a good idea to have an arcane set of terms from a foreign
language
that one must learn to be initiated. I feel that "root base" adequately
describes
what a "nebari" is, for instance. FWIW.

But that is what jargon is, a set of arcane terms that are particular to a
certain endeavor that one must learn to be initiated. Whether or not these
terms come from a foreign language doesn't really matter. Many of our words
have origins in other languages.

Regards,
Roger Snipes Spokane, WA Zone 5, or maybe Zone 6.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it,
and then misapplying the wrong remedies. Groucho Marx (1895-1977)

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I think that Kitsune Miko made a mistake in explaining the words ( I am not
a fluent speaker in Japanese but I can manage in Japan) the word Yama (or
San) means mountain and dori taken or from.
The expanation however is correct and as you look at Japans geography
mountain can also be interpreted as from nature because all suburban areas
are in the lowlands and have no real nature except the made ones (
gardens).So Yamadori could well be collected from a hedge or remade
landscape garden in our western world.
Ab Demmendal )

"Kitsune Miko" schreef in bericht
.yahoo.com...
At 08:13 AM 9/15/2003 -0400, Jim Lewis wrote:
There's a rather silly discussion on the gallery about a bonsai
event somewhere that is having a "Yamadori Boxwood" workshop.
Someone mocked that that meant they were all collected
(presumably in the wild) from the mountains.

This seemed to me to be another example of people insisting that
the shades of meaning of a word don't change over time (and
geography).

I've seen more and more often the use of "yamadori" as merely a
"collected" tree, since comparatively few bonsai now are
collected in "mountains." Certainly none of mine are, few (if
any) of Gary Marchall's, etc.

I think I even read somewhere -- and quite recently, too -- that
even the Japanese aren't kowtowing to the _exact_ meaning of
"yamadori" any more and use the term for a collected tree. The
expanded usage makes sense for both here and there (and
particularly for boxwood ;-) which are mostly collected from old
hedges, though I suppose the plant may still exist in the wild
somewhere in Asia. (Heck, they exist in the wild here -- having
escaped from old farmsteads to crop up in the north Florida
woods.)

Thoughts? Purists vs. loose constructionists. Liberals
(thinkers ;-) versus conservatives (if it wasn't done that way
yesterday it ain't right! ;-).

I did something on this for Bonsai Today On Line.

Yama means picked, dori means mountain. Since there are no plants left in
the mountains usage of the word changed to mean collected from the
wild. This is a usage known only in bonsai circles. So anything ever
cultivated even allowed to grow wild is not yamadori by the experts even
today. Yamadori now seems to mean styled by nature.

Any person learning Japanese as a second language or being born here would
not get this meaning. Japanese has many subtle variations known by
various
classes of people. I worked at a company where I purchased business cards
in English and Japanese for our 35 year old CEO. The Japanese type setter
chose what he thought the proper title, but is also meant honored
grandfather. After that we had a well bred very proper educated Japanese
woman do all our title translations.

Kitsune Miko


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