--- "Peter K." wrote:
I just received the new Bonsai Today and found
something i thought to be
weird. There was an article about making sure you
use drainage soil. I was
under the impression that it has been decided that
drainage soil is more of
a hinderance than a help. Who's right? (FWIW,
the author of the article
was "unknown")


This is a good example of there being no obsoletes in
bonsai (except for water and light ;-} ). There is no
one way to do anything. Styles change, knowledge base
increases, new techniques are discovered. Although in
a small pot coarser drainage soil is not necessary, it
might not be a bad idea in a very large bonsai pot.

In California, we have started watering new
plantings/transplantings from above rather than
soaking because this gives an opportunity to wash the
fines/dust out of the pot, but if you have a
shohin/mame bonsai, chances are you will wash out all
the soil out before you get to the dust.

I have not see the article in question.

Kitsune Miko

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Peter:
Do you mean drainage layer at the bottom of the pot? A soil should be
well draining and if so, there is no need for a drainage layer of pure
grit IMHO.

Henrik Gistvall, Uppsala, Sweden

"Peter K." wrote:

I just received the new Bonsai Today and found something i thought to be
weird. There was an article about making sure you use drainage soil. I was
under the impression that it has been decided that drainage soil is more of
a hinderance than a help. Who's right? (FWIW, the author of the article
was "unknown")

--
Peter Kulibert zone 4a/5b

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At 07:59 AM 12/21/03 -0600, Peter K. wrote:
I just received the new Bonsai Today and found something i thought to be
weird. There was an article about making sure you use drainage soil. I was
under the impression that it has been decided that drainage soil is more of
a hinderance than a help. Who's right?



(FWIW, the author of the article
was "unknown")

Peter

I think your last line says it all. We had a big go around with similar
issues on Gardenweb. I will copy my response below. You might also see the
article at my website on soil:

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/soil.htm

Gardenweb Response:

Drainage Layer
This keeps coming around. There is no point in a drainage layer. You will
get the best drainage using a soil mix of uniform particle size. The reason
that using a drainage layer can in fact hold more water is result of the
interface of two radically different particle sizes. Water can and
sometimes will see a distinct interface as a barrier. It doesn't matter
that it has holes in it. I don't pretend to know the surface physics of
water to explain it, but it is a well known phenomenon called a "perched
water table". It is an interface phenomenon of two distinctly different
layers of soils. The way to avoid a perched water table between two layers
is to mix the two layers at the interface to break the boundary and weaken
the effect. Putting a screen between the two layers will almost guarantee
that you will get a perched water table since the screen will act as a
superb boundary. Now, if you WANT a perched water table so that you have an
added reservoir of water in a shallow pot in hot climate, then that's a
whole 'nother sack of potatoes.

Evaporation
Yes, larger holes or a mesh bottom will increase evaporation. However,
evaporation from even the top of the pot that heats up in sunlight is only
a minor determinant in water loss in containers. The largest factor by far
in water loss is transport of water from the roots to the top of the plant
in the process of transpiration. If you don't believe this, place a well
watered, established plant next to a well watered pot of the same soil (and
the same age in the pot to mimic compaction and composting). Put both in
the same position and check them at the end of the day. You will be amazed.
Evaporation losses are only significant in mesh type pots or unglazed
terracotta pots that wick water from the soil.

Small Particle Transport
It seems like common sense that small particles as the result of soil
composting will migrate to the bottom of the pot. In fact, this too, is a
minor effect. I have to transplant thousands of plants a year. I spent a
great deal of time this summer transplanting out of season because it was
either that or lose the plants. In the process I washed most of the soil
from the roots to avoid root injury and subsequent diminished water uptake.
So, I got to see a lot of root systems first hand that were growing in
collapsed mixes. Yes, in the worst cases there would be a thin layer of
muddy organic material in the bottom. However, this is nearly always
insignificant to the amount of fine organic material trapped in the soil
matrix above. I used enormous amounts of water to try to 'flush' the fine
organics from the soil mix. It is very difficult to get it out. I could
blast the root ball with a jet spray for almost a minute, but just
underneath the surface that was getting blasted would be the same muddy
matrix. The only way to remove the fines was to physically break up the
root ball so that nearly every square inch got blasted.

The drainage in these pots was not lost because there was a clogged layer
in the bottom. The drainage was lost because the entire matrix was clogged
with fine organic material.

Roots Clog the Drainage
An addendum to the above. The plants that had root colonized the soil mix
before it collapsed (there is an essay on this subject at my website)
retained their drainage to a remarkable degree. These plants still took
water normally. That is, you could add water at quite a high rate and not
flood the pot and water would not 'pond'. Same plants in same soil mix that
did not colonize for one reason or another were clogged with organic fines,
water ponded and did not drain.

Soil collapse occurs when organic amendment composting outstrips the root
colonization process. Plants that don't root colonize quickly, stay too
wet. Too wet soil speeds the composting process. This can happen very
quickly, often in the course of a growing season. Plants that root colonize
very quickly will never experience soil collapse. The roots will form a
woody structure that will not allow the soil to collapse. This is why
healthy plants will continue to drain well (as pointed out above)while
unhealthy plants of the same age and in the same mix will languish and
often die right next to their healthy counterpoints. The reasons why this
can happen to an almost identical set of plants include a) more light to
some plants than others, b) more fertilizer to some than others, c)heavy
pruning to some plants, etc. This too is discussed in the article at my
website.

Yes, plants that root colonize effectively do eventually need treatment. If
left alone they become rootBOUND. Oddly enough, this still usually does not
lead (at least immediately) to water problems. They will take up water more
slowly because of the density of the root/soil matrix, but once it is
saturated, it doesn't stay saturated for very long because the matrix is
comprised of mostly roots that are absorbing water for a big healthy
canopy. Remove a lot of that canopy through heavy pruning and you might
have a problem. Vance correctly alludes to this problem a lot. Plants that
are rootbound can be pruned backed, but if this is not followed up at the
next appropriate season with a rootpruning and repotting, then the soil
ball can begin to decline into collapse from the dead excess root tissue.

There were probably more points to address, but I hope you get the idea
that the root/soil/plant SYSTEM is a complex, dynamic, and interactive
environment. I hope this clears things up some.


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

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Henrik Gistvall wrote:

Peter:
Do you mean drainage layer at the bottom of the pot? A soil should be
well draining and if so, there is no need for a drainage layer of pure
grit IMHO.

Henrik Gistvall, Uppsala, Sweden


I guess I'm with Henrik. My soil is uniform in particle size throughout the pot and
I have no problems.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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thanks for all the input everyone, i remember reading something to this
extent on here before. I just don't understand why a magazine which should
be on the "cutting edge" of bonsai would print something that is
scientifically wrong. I suppose it all boils down to opinion and what
works for you personally though. Thanks again.

--
Peter Kulibert zone 4a/5b

Henrik Gistvall wrote:

Peter:
Do you mean drainage layer at the bottom of the pot? A soil should be
well draining and if so, there is no need for a drainage layer of pure
grit IMHO.

Henrik Gistvall, Uppsala, Sweden


I guess I'm with Henrik. My soil is uniform in particle size throughout the pot and
I have no problems.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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thanks for all the input everyone, i remember reading something to this
extent on here before. I just don't understand why a magazine which should
be on the "cutting edge" of bonsai would print something that is
scientifically wrong. I suppose it all boils down to opinion and what
works for you personally though. Thanks again.

--
Peter Kulibert zone 4a/5b

Peter:

Perhaps it is scientifically wrong, but it is the accepted and general
practice in Japan! All Japanese books on bonsai, all Japanese
articles on repotting, all Japanese videos on repotting use that
technique. Last March I worked a couple days at a nursery in
Kyoto repotting shohin and mame bonsai, my specific instructions
were to use two different layers of Akadama soil: a drainage layer
and a main filler. All workers at the nursery used the same technique.

So get used to the idea that old practices, specially if they are proven
in practice over several centuries, may endure even if "scientifically
wrong." And "Kindai Bonsai," the source of that article is the best
and truly cutting edge magazine on bonsai.

Cheers.

Peter Aradi
Tulsa, Oklahoma

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter K."
To:
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 1:17 PM
Subject: [IBC] drainage


thanks for all the input everyone, i remember reading something to this
extent on here before. I just don't understand why a magazine which
should
be on the "cutting edge" of bonsai would print something that is
scientifically wrong. I suppose it all boils down to opinion and what
works for you personally though. Thanks again.

--
Peter Kulibert zone 4a/5b


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****
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****
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


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I just don't understand why a magazine which should
be on the "cutting edge" of bonsai would print something that is
scientifically wrong.

The cutting edge is in a different place in bonsai. A few years ago I heard a bonsai master who ought to have known better tell a roomful of people that sharp sand caused roots to fork.

I think bonsai masters have such green thumbs that they can believe a lot of nonsense and still raise beautiful trees. And who argues with success?

Nina Shishkoff


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At 01:17 PM 12/21/03 -0600, Peter K. wrote:
thanks for all the input everyone, i remember reading something to this
extent on here before. I just don't understand why a magazine which should
be on the "cutting edge" of bonsai would print something that is
scientifically wrong. I suppose it all boils down to opinion and what
works for you personally though. Thanks again.

Peter

No, sorry to say, in my opinion, it is just sloppiness. I find examples of
this in all the bonsai magazines. I suppose too, it is politics. It is very
difficult to get articles for these magazines, there is no money or fame in
it for the authors, so the magazines are reluctant to hold anyone to a
higher standard. Sorry to be the grinch, but I just find it irritating.
What's the point of getting old if you can't be cranky!


Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

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At 04:07 PM 12/21/03 -0600, p.aradi wrote:

So get used to the idea that old practices, specially if they are proven
in practice over several centuries, may endure even if "scientifically
wrong." And "Kindai Bonsai," the source of that article is the best
and truly cutting edge magazine on bonsai.

Peter

Well, now I guess I will be truly the grinch. Doctors also bled patients
for decades if not centuries. I don't belive they would have done it if
they didn't think it worked.

You can paste ten thousand quarters on your car, get inside, start it,
drive it away. It works!

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In a message dated 12/22/2003 11:51:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

At 04:07 PM 12/21/03 -0600, p.aradi wrote:

So get used to the idea that old practices, specially if they are proven
in practice over several centuries, may endure even if "scientifically
wrong." And "Kindai Bonsai," the source of that article is the best
and truly cutting edge magazine on bonsai.

Peter

Well, now I guess I will be truly the grinch. Doctors also bled patients
for decades if not centuries. I don't belive they would have done it if
they didn't think it worked.

You can paste ten thousand quarters on your car, get inside, start it,
drive it away. It works!


Brent,

Leech therapy (a form of bleeding), to assist in circulation and healing, is
once again in vogue and endorsed by modern medical practitioners. ;-)

Luis Fontanills
Miami, Florida USA

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Well, now I guess I will be truly the grinch. Doctors also bled patients
for decades if not centuries. I don't belive they would have done it if
they didn't think it worked.



Leech therapy (a form of bleeding), to assist in circulation and healing, is
once again in vogue and endorsed by modern medical practitioners. ;-)

Umm, Leech therapy is indeed "in vogue" (key word: vogue!), and even if there is something to it, it bears NO relation to the practice of bleeding patients to "get rid of ill humors."

Jim Lewis - from Durham, N.C.

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