Original Message: from Craig Cowing:
One last statement: I see nothing wrong with a person who collects bonsai
but
has them maintained by someone else. To my mind this is no different than
a
well-off person hiring someone to do their gardening for them. But when
it
comes to exhibiting a bonsai, especially in a competitive exhibition, I
feel
the attribution should be given to the artist who maintains the tree as
well as
the owner. This is no different than an art collector loaning his/her
Rembrandt to the Metropolitan, and having the attribution go to Rembrandt,
not
the collector. This can also advance the art of bonsai by making that
particular artist's work better-known, and give them more clients.
Craig Cowing
--------------

Craig, here you try to hit the nail on the head and, like just about
everyone who tries with this point, miss by about 3 yards. What you say
here has nothing to do with excellent art or enhancing the art of bonsai.
Let me say that again - what you say here has nothing to do with excellent
art or enhancing the art of bonsai. Instead, what you express here is the
same ridiculous infatuation with "people" getting something in a contest
INSTEAD OF bonsai artistry being recognized. There is a difference that I
hope you can understand, today or one day soon.

A judged bonsai exhibit is NOT A CONTEST OF CONTENTION. "People" do not
"win" a judged bonsai exhibit. Rather, some bonsai are judged to be
excellent. Period. Let us please get over ourselves and quit being so
concerned with "who" wins a bonsai contest. There is no reason for any
names to be associated with the bonsai in a judged exhibit. The only way
for a judged bonsai exhibit to enhance the endeavor is for us to recognize
excellent bonsai art - examples from which we artists and enthusiasts can
learn about excellence. Focusing on this or that artist does nothing to
enhance our endeavor.

As with the game of golf, it is impossible for one bonsai artist to "beat"
another in a judged exhibit. Rather, each puts forth his/her effort and the
results of that effort are evaluated. In golf, it is impossible for one
player to "beat" the other. Instead, each plays his/her best and their
scores are compared at the end. One score is, according to the
rules/conventions, the better score. These are individual efforts that are
later evaluated, not competitive efforts that win at the expense of the
other.

What you seem so attached to is certainly one way to organize a competition
between artists. However, why can't we ALSO have the opportunity to simply
compare the artistry, beauty, message, image of great art and officially
recognize a few of the highest examples in the form of a judged exhibit?
Here again, we're talking about the ADDITION of an activity, not replacement
of one method for another.

I hope that this explanation/plea reaches you (and others) and I hope that
you can begin to recognize the distinction and the inherent value in what
I'm describing. Thanks.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm
zone 8, Texas

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What you seem so attached to is certainly one way to organize a
competition
between artists. However, why can't we ALSO have the
opportunity to simply
compare the artistry, beauty, message, image of great art and
officially
recognize a few of the highest examples in the form of a judged
exhibit?
Here again, we're talking about the ADDITION of an activity,
not replacement
of one method for another.


Do you recommend that we carry this scheme over to paintings,
sculpture, the ballet, a symphony? Just go to look, touch, or
listen with no attribution or frame of reference? Rembrandt,
Ravel or Rodin won't care, but there are a lot of living artists
who might. And, if _I_ designed trees for someone else and that
someone entered a tree I created into an exhibit/competition, I
think I'd appreciate a little note beside the tree that said
'twas my work -- just like the collector of one of my whatevers
(HA!) would do if she showed it in a whatever exhibition.

Collectors collect nice things because of ego (they want to be
seen by people to whom they show the collection as a person who
has good taste); and few Collectors would allow a tree to be
displayed that didn't say: "from the collection of I.M. Rich."
And, artists also display their wares because of ego (hoping
people will notice how talented they are -- and in the hope that
someone will buy something).

If collector Jo Blo wants to submit a tree to one of these
competitions, she should and the competition should allow her to,
with the caveat that John Smith did the work.

But, in the end, maybe, someday, someone, somewhere will
recognize the fact that IT DOESN'T MATTER! Not a hoot.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The ignorant
man marvels at the exceptional; the wise man marvels at the
common; the greatest wonder of all is the regularity of
nature. -- George Dana Bordman

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************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I find it interesting that nobody has attempted to address the
issue of copyrights in this discussion. Creations of any sort are
protected by copyright law, conceivably even bonsai, especially those
who are maintained rather than developing. Dan Avrin or one of our other
legal minds might be able to expound on this.
Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Rutledge
Original Message: from Craig Cowing:
One last statement: I see nothing wrong with a person who collects
bonsai but has them maintained by someone else. To my mind this is no
different than a well-off person hiring someone to do their gardening
for them. But when it comes to exhibiting a bonsai, especially in a
competitive exhibition, I feel the attribution should be given to the
artist who maintains the tree as well as the owner. This is no
different than an art collector loaning his/her Rembrandt to the
Metropolitan, and having the attribution go to Rembrandt, not the
collector. This can also advance the art of bonsai by making that
particular artist's work better-known, and give them more clients.
Craig Cowing
--------------
Craig, here you try to hit the nail on the head and, like just about
everyone who tries with this point, miss by about 3 yards. What you say
here has nothing to do with excellent art or enhancing the art of
bonsai.
Let me say that again - what you say here has nothing to do with
excellent
art or enhancing the art of bonsai. Instead, what you express here is
the
same ridiculous infatuation with "people" getting something in a contest
INSTEAD OF bonsai artistry being recognized. There is a difference that
I
hope you can understand, today or one day soon.

A judged bonsai exhibit is NOT A CONTEST OF CONTENTION. "People" do not
"win" a judged bonsai exhibit. Rather, some bonsai are judged to be
excellent. Period. Let us please get over ourselves and quit being so
concerned with "who" wins a bonsai contest. There is no reason for any
names to be associated with the bonsai in a judged exhibit. The only
way
for a judged bonsai exhibit to enhance the endeavor is for us to
recognize
excellent bonsai art - examples from which we artists and enthusiasts
can
learn about excellence. Focusing on this or that artist does nothing
to
enhance our endeavor.

As with the game of golf, it is impossible for one bonsai artist to
"beat"
another in a judged exhibit. Rather, each puts forth his/her effort and
the
results of that effort are evaluated. In golf, it is impossible for one
player to "beat" the other. Instead, each plays his/her best and their
scores are compared at the end. One score is, according to the
rules/conventions, the better score. These are individual efforts that
are
later evaluated, not competitive efforts that win at the expense of the
other.

What you seem so attached to is certainly one way to organize a
competition
between artists. However, why can't we ALSO have the opportunity to
simply
compare the artistry, beauty, message, image of great art and officially
recognize a few of the highest examples in the form of a judged exhibit?
Here again, we're talking about the ADDITION of an activity, not
replacement
of one method for another.

I hope that this explanation/plea reaches you (and others) and I hope
that
you can begin to recognize the distinction and the inherent value in
what
I'm describing. Thanks.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm
zone 8, Texas

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Good Day to All,
General response,

Hmm,the concept of running a race against your self.

Can't fault the idea/philosophy.
Only the sometimes caustic way ideas are expressed.

Yes,I agree,with what is being said,but not the tone.

In fact I can agree with much of what Andy says,save
it is usually so ---designed to be argumentative,rather
than thought provoking.

Strange,since he is expressing sensible ideas,but angering
everyone so much,that no one will listen.
You may now flame me as well.
Khaimraj
West Indies/Caribbean

*At times it feels as though he knows when he will die to
the minute.Rather like those folk who need to make x amount
of Bonsai because their 80+ and have only so much life left.
Forgetting that life is a gift and every day lived - a blessing.





A judged bonsai exhibit is NOT A CONTEST OF CONTENTION. "People" do not
"win" a judged bonsai exhibit. Rather, some bonsai are judged to be
excellent. Period. Let us please get over ourselves and quit being so
concerned with "who" wins a bonsai contest. There is no reason for any
names to be associated with the bonsai in a judged exhibit. The only way
for a judged bonsai exhibit to enhance the endeavor is for us to recognize
excellent bonsai art - examples from which we artists and enthusiasts can
learn about excellence. Focusing on this or that artist does nothing to
enhance our endeavor.

As with the game of golf, it is impossible for one bonsai artist to "beat"
another in a judged exhibit. Rather, each puts forth his/her effort and
the
results of that effort are evaluated. In golf, it is impossible for one
player to "beat" the other. Instead, each plays his/her best and their
scores are compared at the end. One score is, according to the
rules/conventions, the better score. These are individual efforts that are
later evaluated, not competitive efforts that win at the expense of the
other.

What you seem so attached to is certainly one way to organize a competition
between artists. However, why can't we ALSO have the opportunity to simply
compare the artistry, beauty, message, image of great art and officially
recognize a few of the highest examples in the form of a judged exhibit?
Here again, we're talking about the ADDITION of an activity, not
replacement
of one method for another.

I hope that this explanation/plea reaches you (and others) and I hope that
you can begin to recognize the distinction and the inherent value in what
I'm describing. Thanks.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm
zone 8, Texas

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Good Day to All,
General response,

Hmm,the concept of running a race against your self.

Can't fault the idea/philosophy.
Only the sometimes caustic way ideas are expressed.

Yes,I agree,with what is being said,but not the tone.

In fact I can agree with much of what Andy says,save
it is usually so ---designed to be argumentative,rather
than thought provoking.

Strange,since he is expressing sensible ideas,but angering
everyone so much,that no one will listen.
You may now flame me as well.
Khaimraj
West Indies/Caribbean

*At times it feels as though he knows when he will die to
the minute.Rather like those folk who need to make x amount
of Bonsai because their 80+ and have only so much life left.
Forgetting that life is a gift and every day lived - a blessing.





A judged bonsai exhibit is NOT A CONTEST OF CONTENTION. "People" do not
"win" a judged bonsai exhibit. Rather, some bonsai are judged to be
excellent. Period. Let us please get over ourselves and quit being so
concerned with "who" wins a bonsai contest. There is no reason for any
names to be associated with the bonsai in a judged exhibit. The only way
for a judged bonsai exhibit to enhance the endeavor is for us to recognize
excellent bonsai art - examples from which we artists and enthusiasts can
learn about excellence. Focusing on this or that artist does nothing to
enhance our endeavor.

As with the game of golf, it is impossible for one bonsai artist to "beat"
another in a judged exhibit. Rather, each puts forth his/her effort and
the
results of that effort are evaluated. In golf, it is impossible for one
player to "beat" the other. Instead, each plays his/her best and their
scores are compared at the end. One score is, according to the
rules/conventions, the better score. These are individual efforts that are
later evaluated, not competitive efforts that win at the expense of the
other.

What you seem so attached to is certainly one way to organize a competition
between artists. However, why can't we ALSO have the opportunity to simply
compare the artistry, beauty, message, image of great art and officially
recognize a few of the highest examples in the form of a judged exhibit?
Here again, we're talking about the ADDITION of an activity, not
replacement
of one method for another.

I hope that this explanation/plea reaches you (and others) and I hope that
you can begin to recognize the distinction and the inherent value in what
I'm describing. Thanks.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm
zone 8, Texas

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Walker"
I find it interesting that nobody has attempted to address the
issue of copyrights in this discussion. Creations of any sort are
protected by copyright law, conceivably even bonsai, especially those
who are maintained rather than developing. Dan Avrin or one of our other
legal minds might be able to expound on this.
Alan Walker
----------------------

Hi Alan,

As a writer, an artist, composer and publisher, copyrights are something
that I have to think about now and then. However, in the case of the judged
exhibits as I'm trying to describe/champion them there is no need for either
the name of the exhibitor or artist to be cited within the context of the
exhibit. Clearly some people will simply know who owns which tree(s) or
which stand(s) or which companion plant(s) or which scrolls and who trained
which tree(s), but the only relevant issue - the only issue of impact on the
judging and the viewing experience - is the beauty and artistry of the
display.

This obviates any issues/trouble of copyright as well as the irrelevant
concerns that some have for someone "taking credit for bonsai they've not
styled." No one takes credit. We just enjoy and recognize excellent
artistry.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm
zone 8, Texas

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Andy Rutledge wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Walker"
I find it interesting that nobody has attempted to address the
issue of copyrights in this discussion. Creations of any sort are
protected by copyright law, conceivably even bonsai, especially those
who are maintained rather than developing. Dan Avrin or one of our other
legal minds might be able to expound on this.
Alan Walker
----------------------

Hi Alan,

As a writer, an artist, composer and publisher, copyrights are something
that I have to think about now and then. However, in the case of the judged
exhibits as I'm trying to describe/champion them there is no need for either
the name of the exhibitor or artist to be cited within the context of the
exhibit. Clearly some people will simply know who owns which tree(s) or
which stand(s) or which companion plant(s) or which scrolls and who trained
which tree(s), but the only relevant issue - the only issue of impact on the
judging and the viewing experience - is the beauty and artistry of the
display.

This obviates any issues/trouble of copyright as well as the irrelevant
concerns that some have for someone "taking credit for bonsai they've not
styled." No one takes credit. We just enjoy and recognize excellent
artistry.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm
zone 8, Texas

As long as it isn't a judged contest I have no problem with this sort of exhibit.
As I mentioned yesterday, the Yama Ki Bonsai Society has an exhibition every fall
at the NY Botanic Gardens, and no names are used, but it isn't a judged exhibition,
just an exhibition. So, these kinds of exhibits are already going on.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

--- Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:
Good Day to All,
General response,

Hmm,the concept of running a race against your self.

Can't fault the idea/philosophy.
Only the sometimes caustic way ideas are expressed.

Yes,I agree,with what is being said,but not the
tone.

In fact I can agree with much of what Andy says,save
it is usually so ---designed to be
argumentative,rather
than thought provoking.

Strange,since he is expressing sensible ideas,but
angering
everyone so much,that no one will listen.
You may now flame me as well.
Khaimraj
West Indies/Caribbean

*At times it feels as though he knows when he will
die to
the minute.Rather like those folk who need to make x
amount
of Bonsai because their 80+ and have only so much
life left.
Forgetting that life is a gift and every day lived -
a blessing.





A judged bonsai exhibit is NOT A CONTEST OF
CONTENTION. "People" do not
"win" a judged bonsai exhibit. Rather, some bonsai
are judged to be
excellent. Period. Let us please get over
ourselves and quit being so
concerned with "who" wins a bonsai contest. There
is no reason for any
names to be associated with the bonsai in a judged
exhibit. The only way
for a judged bonsai exhibit to enhance the endeavor
is for us to recognize
excellent bonsai art - examples from which we
artists and enthusiasts can
learn about excellence. Focusing on this or that
artist does nothing to
enhance our endeavor.

As with the game of golf, it is impossible for one
bonsai artist to "beat"
another in a judged exhibit. Rather, each puts
forth his/her effort and
the
results of that effort are evaluated. In golf, it
is impossible for one
player to "beat" the other. Instead, each plays
his/her best and their
scores are compared at the end. One score is,
according to the
rules/conventions, the better score. These are
individual efforts that are
later evaluated, not competitive efforts that win
at the expense of the
other.

What you seem so attached to is certainly one way
to organize a competition
between artists. However, why can't we ALSO have
the opportunity to simply
compare the artistry, beauty, message, image of
great art and officially
recognize a few of the highest examples in the form
of a judged exhibit?
Here again, we're talking about the ADDITION of an
activity, not
replacement
of one method for another.

I hope that this explanation/plea reaches you (and
others) and I hope that
you can begin to recognize the distinction and the
inherent value in what
I'm describing. Thanks.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
www.andyrutledge.com/palaver/main.htm
zone 8, Texas


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark
Zimmerman++++

************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ:
http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail
+++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

--- Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:
Good Day to All,
General response,

Hmm,the concept of running a race against your self.

Can't fault the idea/philosophy.
Only the sometimes caustic way ideas are expressed.

Yes,I agree,with what is being said,but not the
tone.

In fact I can agree with much of what Andy says,save
it is usually so ---designed to be
argumentative,rather
than thought provoking.

Strange,since he is expressing sensible ideas,but
angering
everyone so much,that no one will listen.
You may now flame me as well.
Khaimraj
West Indies/Caribbean

There is no tone of voice in a email. The reader
projects the tone, not the writer. If sensible words
are written by the writer and read unsenibly, then
who's fault is it? Perhaps tone is provided by the
reader before reading.

Kitsune Miko

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

--- Craig Cowing wrote:
As long as it isn't a judged contest I have no
problem with this sort of exhibit.
As I mentioned yesterday, the Yama Ki Bonsai Society
has an exhibition every fall
at the NY Botanic Gardens, and no names are used,
but it isn't a judged exhibition,
just an exhibition. So, these kinds of exhibits are
already going on.

Craig Cowing
NY

I went to a fantastic show over the past weekend. It
was Bay Island Bonsai from Alemeda, California. It
was a judged show with guest members invited to show.
There were no names, no identification of trees at the
exhibits. One looked at these fantastic trees without
distraction. There were the small understated
trophies included in the winning displays. It was
never stated whether the trees were merely
owned/collected or significantly workd by the
owner/artist. The open, uninterupted displays were
only numbered. One had to look in the program for
tree identification, even then ownership was not
mentioned.

As I see it there are several reasons for not
identifying who owns the tree, 1) this changes the
emphasis of the art from the tree to the possesor 2)
we have had thefts in California when it is known
where ther are good collections. Thses thefts are
comitted when the owner is away usually at a club
show.

Said in a sweet voice,
Did you hear it that way?

Kitsune Miko

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++