I am not a list member and only occasionally frequent the newsgroup. I have
posted a couple of times. I have always been confused that an unmoderated,
public newsgroup has moderators. I didn't really understand that there was
a list group attached to the newsgroup. I found it very offensive to read
people trying to administer this public newsgroup.

I believe in the American ideal of free speech. Many here appear to want a
country club approach to information exchange, only allowing passive,
teacher oriented types to post only informational topics that don't offend
anyone. If you have this mentality then please do sever ties with the
newsgroup and others like me will find our information elsewhere.

This is censorship no different than any other censorship. If you don't
like the violence on television, then turn the station or turn off the
television. I don't see why so many people have trouble with this concept.
Individuals can prevent agressive posters from appearing on their computer
and never need to see their post. We all have control over what we read and
watch and listen to. I don't need some third party to decide what I can and
cannot read. I am very disappointed with this discussion and I hope you all
come to your senses.

From: (Shelly Hurd)
Organization: None
Reply-To: Shelly Hurd
Newsgroups: rec.arts.bonsai
Date: 25 Feb 2005 08:18:24 -0800
Subject: [IBC] Admin - R.A.B. - Long

List Members,

In the past two weeks we have seen an increasing number of argumentative / off
topic posts / and increasing numbers of spam posts all received through
rec.arts.bonsai. These posts not only waste my time, they waste yours, and
fill our archives with what can only be politely described as garbage.

We/I have three alternatives: (and others have already said I should not open
this up for discussion). So for 24 hours or so let's discuss. I strongly urge
any and all lurkers out there to join in this discussion. After that I will
close discussion and do what I feel needs to be done.
snip

open this up for discussion). So for 24 hours or so let's discuss. I
strongly urge any and all lurkers out there to join in this discussion.

Well, I am a "lurker out there". I am quite new to bonsai and as such I need
to learn a lot. I have subscribed to the list in order to receive bonsai
related information from diverse sources while not compromising the
reliability (which is often the issue of "random" web sites).

I am not interested in being spammed by tons of off-topic posts. It is not
that I can be easily offended (which I cannot, and particularly not by
anonymous spammers), it is a matter of convenience.

I have found the list directly (i.e. not via the newsgroup). I don't know how
typical is my case, but I personally would vote for a moderated list not
connected to RAB.

On the other hand, hitting del a couple of times daily is not _that_ much
work for me, so any of the three alternatives will be ok.

Thank you all who post relevant information here and keep this all alive. It's
much appreciated.

Rastislav Kralovic

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My apologies for responding so late. I was traveling the past week and a
half, so this spam-alleviating discussion rings close to my heart after
filtering through hundreds of emails.

From Rastislav Kralovic:

I have found the list directly (i.e. not via the newsgroup). I
don't know how
typical is my case, but I personally would vote for a moderated list not
connected to RAB.

I have to agree with this. I found the list by means of a simple web
search, without even directly searching for it. It was also cited on many
web search returns, and IBC was linked on a few sites. I do not yet see the
benefit of RAB, mostly because I lack evidence. According to Jim the admins
may know how many posters are not subscribed.

To understand the benefit, let me pose a question to the past and present
administrators and long-time posters. If this list was not linked to IBC,
and people were searching for bonsai discussion, would they likely still
find and join the list? If so, why remain linked?

Still, some of the argumentative posts we've seen recently have not come in
as the spam at the heart of this discussion. Many of our delete buttons got
a workout regarding Marco Invernizzi's heritage and the expansion of bonsai
as art. Dumping RAB will do nothing to solve this aspect of the problem.

It costs nothing to join the list, yet the benefits can be immense. I can't
tell you how much I continue to learn from this resource (even if not all of
it is applicable to my region). I'm happy with any direction this list
takes, as long as the resource doesn't go away.

Best regards,

-Wendy

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++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

On Mar 1, 2005, at 1:53 PM, Wendy Fissel wrote:

snip

From Rastislav Kralovic:

I have found the list directly (i.e. not via the newsgroup). I
don't know how
typical is my case, but I personally would vote for a moderated list
not
connected to RAB.

I have to agree with this.
snip
To understand the benefit, let me pose a question to the past and
present
administrators and long-time posters. If this list was not linked to
IBC,
and people were searching for bonsai discussion, would they likely
still
find and join the list? If so, why remain linked?


Nobody is suggesting eliminating RAB. I didn't find the IBC through
RAB either so I have no attachment to it.

As far as I'm concerned, having the reciprocal link to RAB almost
negates any value derived from being a part of the IBC. If people can
post to the list without being subscribers, what's the point of having
subscribers?

Someone suggested modifying the link to RAB so that people could read
the postings on the IBC through RAB but could not post to the IBC. I
feel this is the best solution. If someone had a question to post
perhaps they could send it to a designated email address that is
monitored. Would this be possible?

Another possibility, which would require a reworking of the list again,
would be to set up the gallery in the way that BonsaiTalk is set up.
There is no list--pictures and inquiries all get posted there. That
way people can read any thread they want and ignore everything else.

snip

Best regards,

-Wendy



Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Hello All,

Well, you've read the posts, only a very few came direct to me. Most of YOU (the actual List Members) seem well versed with your delete keys, and when NOT to reply or encourage spam posters. It's time to repost the Welcome message, and include a revision noting this decision.

I'm going to keep us linked with RAB, and put the trolls on a filter ---IF AND WHEN--- they start bogging us down with junk. Jim has offered to help with the review process to the filter list, and that's fine with me. I told him he contributes greatly to the list, and I didn't want HIS time bogged down with the review, but who am I to turn down help. FOR MY PART I will only review filtered posts twice a day (California USA time), time permitting. So, IF you wind up in the filter list your post may not appear immediately to the group. LIVE WITH IT. Your on the filter list for a reason.

Let me be clear to all, this is NOT and never was about CENSORSHIP, and if any individual(s) took it that way they are wrong. It's about OUR ARCHIVE space, and totally OFF TOPIC posts. Stay ON topic (or at least NEAR topic) and I'll just sit and read, respond when I can, and enjoy this wonderful resource to bonsai.

Let this be the final post on this topic.

Thanks and Regards,
Shelly Hurd - List Owner/Manager
Central CA - Sunset Zone 8-USDA Zone 9


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Hello All,

Well, you've read the posts, only a very few came direct to me. Most of YOU (the actual List Members) seem well versed with your delete keys, and when NOT to reply or encourage spam posters. It's time to repost the Welcome message, and include a revision noting this decision.

I'm going to keep us linked with RAB, and put the trolls on a filter ---IF AND WHEN--- they start bogging us down with junk. Jim has offered to help with the review process to the filter list, and that's fine with me. I told him he contributes greatly to the list, and I didn't want HIS time bogged down with the review, but who am I to turn down help. FOR MY PART I will only review filtered posts twice a day (California USA time), time permitting. So, IF you wind up in the filter list your post may not appear immediately to the group. LIVE WITH IT. Your on the filter list for a reason.

Let me be clear to all, this is NOT and never was about CENSORSHIP, and if any individual(s) took it that way they are wrong. It's about OUR ARCHIVE space, and totally OFF TOPIC posts. Stay ON topic (or at least NEAR topic) and I'll just sit and read, respond when I can, and enjoy this wonderful resource to bonsai.

Let this be the final post on this topic.

Thanks and Regards,
Shelly Hurd - List Owner/Manager
Central CA - Sunset Zone 8-USDA Zone 9


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++