In a message dated 5/12/05 12:02:26 AM, Steve writes:
The cork bark which I think is called Niri.

This is a common error attached to various cultivars. Nire (sic) is simply
the Japanese word for elm, and gets stuck on various trees because of
misunderstandings in translation. Cork bark elm is Ulmus parvifolia 'Corticosa.'

I also purchased a few Cedar Elm , one of which appears to be a Winged Elm,


Cedar elm is U. crassifolia. Winged elm is U. alata. Cedar elm may
occasionally exhibit corky wings, hence the confusion.

Yatzebutza, which also has very tiny leaves.

'Yatsubusa' (sic) is another dwarf cultivar of Chinese elm, U. parvifolia.
'Seiju' is probably better.

I have tried Haikkado but have had little success. I was advised that
Haikkado requires very cold winter temps to do well.

'Hokkaido' (sic) (also a cultivar of Chinese elm) is very challenging. It is
almost impossible to wire.
It is my understanding that 'Hokkaido' is the most tender variety, and is
grown indoors as a subtropical following a cool rest in fall. At least that is
the practice in Zones 5 & 6.
Iris

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:


'Hokkaido' (sic) (also a cultivar of Chinese elm) is very challenging. It is
almost impossible to wire.
It is my understanding that 'Hokkaido' is the most tender variety, and is
grown indoors as a subtropical following a cool rest in fall. At least that
is
the practice in Zones 5 & 6.



I only see Hokkaido in cold greenhouses in the winter. I have never been
able to wire them. Branches are too brittle. Jiu San only hept them in the cold
greenhouse.

Seiju is a sport of Yatzabutza and I think Seiju is a better tree to work
with.
I also seen Cork bark elms in nurseries right or wrong labelled as Nire

SteveW


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Steve:

Seiju is a sport from Hokkaido, not yatsabusa. Yatsabusa may be
related, but it has a narrower leaf & the bark is less corky & isn't
it browner?

Carl Young grew hokkaido elms by the thousands at his Seiju-en Bonsai
Nursery in Lodi, California. One of them grew an unusual branch, from
which Carl made a few cuttings. The next year he made a huge number of
cuttings & grew them in his fields. He sold them from the field for $35
each. I think this all started in the early '70's & was documented in
International Bonsai Magazine, probably in the '80's.

A few years ago, Boon (my teacher ) said "Look." and showed me a small
hokkaido elm. It was perfectly normal, except it had an unusual branch
- a mutation that looked exactly like Seiju. I think that such a
discovery today would be worth a lot more than $35/tree, so I figure
that Boon missed making a small fortune by merely, perhaps, twenty-five
years!

I think Hokkaido & Seiju are dwarf versions of 'corticosa', All are
great bonsai subjects: Hokkaido is beautiful, but too fragile for me
(no wiring allowed!), Seiju is the best compromise of leaf size & vigor
and 'corticosa' has enormous vigor, is the least brittle of the three
and is great for shohin to monster-sized bonsai.

Mas Imazumi, my first teacher, had no elm bonsai because they grow so
fast. He said "You have to pinch them every morning and you have to
pinch them every afternoon. And then you have to pinch them in your
dreams..."

Jim Gremel



On May 12, 2005, at 6:23 AM, Steve wachs wrote:
'Hokkaido' (sic) (also a cultivar of Chinese elm) is very
challenging. It is
almost impossible to wire.
It is my understanding that 'Hokkaido' is the most tender variety,
and is
grown indoors as a subtropical following a cool rest in fall. At
least that
is the practice in Zones 5 & 6.

I only see Hokkaido in cold greenhouses in the winter. I have never
been
able to wire them. Branches are too brittle. Jiu San only hept them
in the cold
greenhouse.

Seiju is a sport of Yatzabutza and I think Seiju is a better tree to
work
with.
I also seen Cork bark elms in nurseries right or wrong labelled as
Nire

SteveW

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Jim Gremel wrote:

Steve:

Seiju is a sport from Hokkaido, not yatsabusa. Yatsabusa may be
related, but it has a narrower leaf & the bark is less corky & isn't
it browner?

Carl Young grew hokkaido elms by the thousands at his Seiju-en Bonsai
Nursery in Lodi, California. One of them grew an unusual branch, from
which Carl made a few cuttings. The next year he made a huge number of
cuttings & grew them in his fields. He sold them from the field for
$35 each. I think this all started in the early '70's & was documented
in International Bonsai Magazine, probably in the '80's.

A few years ago, Boon (my teacher ) said "Look." and showed me a small
hokkaido elm. It was perfectly normal, except it had an unusual branch
- a mutation that looked exactly like Seiju. I think that such a
discovery today would be worth a lot more than $35/tree, so I figure
that Boon missed making a small fortune by merely, perhaps,
twenty-five years!

Jim

It is also my understanding that both 'Yatsubusa' and 'Seiju' are sports
of 'Hokkaido', and that most likely that 'Hokkaido' is a sport of
'Corticosa'. 'Hokkaido' itself is not a stable cultivar and sports
readily. I have seen dozens of larger leafed sports from my eighty large
stock plants. Most of these are similar too, or identical to 'Seiju',
some are full size 'Corticosa' -like sports.

The most interesting of these larger leaf sports so far (for me) is one
that has formed huge bark plates similar to cork bark Pinus thunbergii
cvs. I have named this one 'Plate Bark'. I have propagated it, but
haven't released it yet because I want to make sure that the offspring
will exhibit the same plate character of the parent branch; there is
some doubt that it will do this. I have the feeling that the sport may
have simply induced the plate bark furrows on the 'Hokkaido' portion
alone, and won't continue that pattern into the new sport section. I
have waited about ten years for a definitive answer, but the result is
still a few years off. I examined the plant recently and it appears to
forming furrows into the sport section, but I still can't be sure. If it
does reproduce these plates, it will be a very exciting development. The
bark is far superior to either 'Seiju' or 'Corticosa' in my opinion.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com


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Jim Gremel wrote:

they (Elms) grow so
fast. He said "You have to pinch them every morning and you have to
pinch them every afternoon. And then you have to pinch them in your
dreams..."



A-men! I have a couple -- a mame and a small shohin -- and
I can't imagine caring for anything larger.

Jim Lewis - - This economy is a wholly
owned subsidiary of the environment. - Gaylord Nelson

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In a message dated 5/12/05 9:23:57 AM, SteveWachs writes:
Seiju is a sport of Yatzabutza and I think Seiju is a better tree to work
with.

Where did you get that information? Everything I have read indicates that
'Seiju' is a sport of 'Hokkaido.' It turned up in the Seiju-En Nursery in
California. I don't recall the date, some time in the late 20th Century.

I also seen Cork bark elms in nurseries right or wrong*labelled as Nire

I have also had people swear to me that U. parvifolia 'Fuiri' was "Nire," due
to miscommunication with Japanese growers. Unfortunately, the laws in some
states, requiring nursery stock to be true to name, do not include pot plants.
Iris
We had a killing frost last night. Now I have to go put all the orchids &
tender bonsai back outside. ;-(


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In a message dated 5/12/2005 3:30:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
writes:


Seiju is a sport from Hokkaido, not yatsabusa. Yatsabusa may be
related, but it has a narrower leaf & the bark is less corky & isn't
it browner?

Carl Young grew hokkaido elms by the thousands at his Seiju-en Bonsai
Nursery in Lodi, California. One of them grew an unusual branch, from
which Carl made a few cuttings. The next year he made a huge number of
cuttings & grew them in his fields. He sold them from the field for $35
each. I think this all started in the early '70's & was documented in
International Bonsai Magazine, probably in the '80's.

A few years ago, Boon (my teacher ) said "Look." and showed me a small
hokkaido elm. It was perfectly normal, except it had an unusual branch
- a mutation that looked exactly like Seiju. I think that such a
discovery today would be worth a lot more than $35/tree, so I figure
that Boon missed making a small fortune by merely, perhaps, twenty-five
years!

I think Hokkaido & Seiju are dwarf versions of 'corticosa', All are
great bonsai subjects: Hokkaido is beautiful, but too fragile for me
(no wiring allowed!), Seiju is the best compromise of leaf size & vigor
and 'corticosa' has enormous vigor, is the least brittle of the three
and is great for shohin to monster-sized bonsai.

Mas Imazumi, my first teacher, had no elm bonsai because they grow so
fast. He said "You have to pinch them every morning and you have to
pinch them every afternoon. And then you have to pinch them in your
dreams..."

Jim Gremel



Thanks Jim
I appreciate the info. Seiju is a great tree to work with. i have 3 that I
am training. Fortunately it does respond to wire.
I was being stupid, should have known better just by the branching pattern.
and the pattern on the bark where branches were. the Seiju has the same
appearance as The Hokkaido.







SteveW



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