On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 21:32:09 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:

Ironite v. a liquid. What problems have you people had with Ironite? What
is the issue with this product? If it's dangerous, how is it legal to sell
for use in gardens? Is there any other type of iron to add to the
soil/compost besides liquids? With large gardens, sprinkling "iron" water
over the plants several times during the season isn't practical.


I use Hi-Yield Copperas, which is a powder derived from ferrous
sulfate. It was recommended by more than one organic nursery, is
relatively cheap, and effective.


Penelope

--
You have proven yourself to be the most malicious,
classless person that I've encountered in years.
- "pointed"

"Penelope Periwinkle" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 21:32:09 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:

Ironite v. a liquid. What problems have you people had with Ironite?
What
is the issue with this product? If it's dangerous, how is it legal to
sell
for use in gardens? Is there any other type of iron to add to the
soil/compost besides liquids? With large gardens, sprinkling "iron" water
over the plants several times during the season isn't practical.


I use Hi-Yield Copperas, which is a powder derived from ferrous
sulfate. It was recommended by more than one organic nursery, is
relatively cheap, and effective.

Where do you get it? I've not seen or heard about it here in central TN. Who
carries it?



Penelope

--
You have proven yourself to be the most malicious,
classless person that I've encountered in years.
- "pointed"

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 23:43:14 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:
"Penelope Periwinkle" wrote
"Marie Dodge" wrote:
Ironite v. a liquid. What problems have you people had with Ironite?
What
is the issue with this product? If it's dangerous, how is it legal to
sell
for use in gardens? Is there any other type of iron to add to the
soil/compost besides liquids? With large gardens, sprinkling "iron" water
over the plants several times during the season isn't practical.

You know, I did a quick google on Ironite this morning, and; after
wading through a fair bit of eco-nazi frothing, found this article:

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/view_question.php?id=120

It was more balanced than any of the others.

I use Hi-Yield Copperas, which is a powder derived from ferrous
sulfate. It was recommended by more than one organic nursery, is
relatively cheap, and effective.

Where do you get it? I've not seen or heard about it here in central TN. Who
carries it?

I think you would have to go to a nursery, not a big box store to get
it. I got it for years from a local organic nursery; but when they
retired, I was still able to get it from a more traditional nursery. I
would just call a few nurseries or plant stores near where you live
and ask if they carry it.

I really miss my organic nursery, they were always willing to try and
get products that I'd read about on the web, or help me find a
suitable alternative. The biggest problem is finding potting soil
without any fertilizer in it, but that's a whine for another post.


Penelope
--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"

In article ,
Penelope Periwinkle wrote:

You know, I did a quick google on Ironite this morning, and; after
wading through a fair bit of eco-nazi frothing, found this article:

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/view_question.php?id=120

It was more balanced than any of the others.

Eco-nazi frothing? So this is the fair and balanced report?

Let's start with the report itself. There is no opponent's voice
in the article there are just the proponents, Rob Morgan, Ironite's
executive vice president and chief operating officer, Dr. Eberhardt,
Ironite's consultant, and a few commentators.

The most telling quote came from David Shields, a geologist with
a Dallas engineering firm who has worked on lead cleanup projects,
said the key question for consumers is not which forms of lead or
arsenic are the most or least toxic. The EPA does not make that
distinction when it plans residential cleanups, he noted.

Instead, Mr. Shields said, the important question is whether
consumers can make an informed choice. "I'm not telling anyone
they shouldn't use any particular product," Mr. Shields said.
"But lead is lead is lead."

Then there are the Bio-Nazis at EPA
http://www.epa.gov/nrmrl/lrpcd/wm/projects/135367.htm

Release of Heavy Metals from Ironite(R)

Ironite(R) is a common fertilizer made from mine tailings available at any
lawn and garden store. The presence of heavy metals in Ironite(R) has
resulted in its banning in Canada and lawsuits in the United States due
to the potential release of heavy metals, most notably arsenic and lead.
Bioavailable arsenic released from Ironite(R) is dependent on its
mineralogical form. Previous work sponsored by the producer of Ironite(R)
identified the arsenic bearing phase as arsenopyrite with the conclusion
that arsenic in that form does not pose an ecological threat. However, a
closer look with EXAFS has identified the arsenic phase within Ironite(R)
as scorodite-like. Scorodite is more soluble than arsenopyrite, in fact,
the dissolved arsenic released from scorodite can exceed the US drinking
water standard. In addition to the data collected at Argonne National
Labs in February 2005 that identified arsenate sorbed to iron oxides as
the dominant arsenic bearing phase, secondary identification techniques
are currently being used to confirm this finding such as
thermogravimetric analysis and Mossbauer spectroscopy.

Then there are the bio-Nazis over at Garden Web.
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/...029533485.html

Ironite, Ironate, or Green Sand

* Posted by jenny_in_se_pa USDA7 Sunset 32 (My Page) on
Fri, Jun 1, 07 at 9:12

I don't recall ever seeing Ironite (or similar iron-promoting products)
recommended for edibles outside of the ericaceous edibles like
blueberries, etc. Ie., these products have generally been targeted
towards ornamentals, and particularly acid-lovers including the
ornamental ericaceous shrubs (rhododendrons, azaleas, pieris, camellias,
gardenias, etc). Chemically, iron is less available within the generic
pH ranges that many cultivated veggies grow in and those vegetables are
adapted differently anyway, without the need for the same types and
levels of micronutrients like iron, as the ericas.

For my blueberries, I have been using Hollytone to keep the soil acidic
and get the iron in that they need for the foliage. Greensand is
supposedly a good source of potassium and iron. The conglomerate of
elements that is targeted in greensand ("glauconite") is a
naturally-occuring (from old sea beds) substance that is mined. Back in
the day (and probably still in the current), many used to or still do
use wood ashes for potassium (potash), although in that form, it can
drive the alkalinity of the soil up. Iron was (and often still is) added
by sticking iron nails around the plants! Greensand is an ingredient in
some Epsoma products that coupled with something like ammonium sulfate,
will lower the surrounding pH enough to help make the iron ions
available when aqueous. The very reactive potassium doesn't need much
(mainly water will do) to make it available.
---------

Utilizing recycled industrial waste products is good stewardship if the
efficacy and safety of such recycling process and final product can be
substantiated and that such standards are being monitored and regulated
periodically. There just seems no reason to financially support for the
use of a product or take on take such risk environmentally or personally
when we do not know that the benefits exceed the costs with some
certainty, especially when better alternatives exist.
-------

Then there is
http://www.envirolaw.org/cases/poisonbg.html

Food Crops that Absorb Contaminants Detected in Fertilizers

Toxin Vulnerable Crops Health Effects of Contaminant
Arsenic Carrots, onions, Carcinogenic
potatoes, other
root crops

Cadmium Lettuce, corn, Kidney disease, carcinogenic, birth
wheat defects, diminished fertility

Lead Fruits and grains Seizures, mental retardation,
behavioral disorders

Dioxin Zucchini, pumpkin, Carcinogenic, diminished fertility,
cucumber birth defects, immune system dysfunction

SOURCES: Agency for Toxic Substances Disease Registry, U.S. Public
Health Service, Environmental Protection Agency. Environment
International Agency for Research on Cancer and Environmental Health
Perspectives.

My question to you Penelope is how much lead, arsenic, and cadmium do
you have to ingest to improve your health?
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009916.html

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article ,
Penelope Periwinkle wrote:

You know, I did a quick google on Ironite this morning, and; after
wading through a fair bit of eco-nazi frothing, found this article:

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/view_question.php?id=120

It was more balanced than any of the others.

Whoops, I forgot our eco-nazi friends over at Rutgars University.
http://njaes.rutgers.edu/pubs/soilprofile/sp-v16.pdf

While the great majority of commercial fertilizer
products are generally regarded as safe and free of
harmful levels of heavy metal contamination a limited
number of products of concern have been identified in
the garden center and fertilizer dealer market place.
An example of a product of concern that is widely
available in the home garden fertilizer market is
Ironite. A recent study found that Ironite contains up
to 3600 mg/kg As and 2900 mg/kg Pb and that
solubility testing indicates that the product should be
classified as a hazardous waste. On August 15, 2005,
the New Jersey Department of Agriculture issued a
³stop sale² on Ironite 100,
but other Ironite products
remain on the market.
A limited survey of commercial products obtained
from fertilizer dealers in New Jersey, conducted by
Rutgers Cooperative Research and Extension,
identified one zinc product of concern that contained
83 mg/kg Cd (Table 2). Also analysis of a commercial
liming material found a Ni concentration of 194
mg/kg. New Jersey state officials, garden centers and
fertilizer dealers are being informed about these
suspect products.
In New Jersey, commercial fertilizer products are
regulated for guaranteed nutrient concentration by the
New Jersey Department of Agriculture (NJDA).
Although concentrations of nonnutrient
substances in
fertilizers and liming materials are not currently
regulated, the NJDA will, on request from the public,
test product samples for some heavy metals of
concern. When a farmer, gardener, or fertilizer dealer
has concerns about the guaranteed nutrient
concentration in a fertilizer, quality of a liming
material, or possible contamination of a product with
heavy metals, the product in question may be sampled
and tested by the NJDA, P.O. Box 330, Trenton, NJ
08625. Phone: 6099842222.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009916.html

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 11:40:45 -0700, Billy
wrote:


Eco-nazi frothing?



Speaking of...



Penelope
--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"

In article ,
Penelope Periwinkle wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 11:40:45 -0700, Billy
wrote:


Eco-nazi frothing?



Speaking of...



Penelope

Ah, Penelope, the vituperous vixen: queen of
the fractional entendre and vacuous thoughts. Heil.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009916.html

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article ,
Penelope Periwinkle wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 11:40:45 -0700, Billy
wrote:


Eco-nazi frothing?



Speaking of...


How did you arrive at giving more credence to the commercial,
ad selling, don't-want-to-offend-any-potential-advertisers DALLAS
MORNING NEWS than say Rutgars University, the EPA, or
the Garden Web? I can imagine your embarrassment, having your
stupidity on display like that, but to go 'tudinal instead of
owning up to your error is childish.

And, we've probably had all the invectives that we may have
needed for a gardening group.

Put up, or shut up.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009916.html

"Penelope Periwinkle" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 23:43:14 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:
"Penelope Periwinkle" wrote
"Marie Dodge" wrote:
Ironite v. a liquid. What problems have you people had with Ironite?
What
is the issue with this product? If it's dangerous, how is it legal to
sell
for use in gardens? Is there any other type of iron to add to the
soil/compost besides liquids? With large gardens, sprinkling "iron"
water
over the plants several times during the season isn't practical.

You know, I did a quick google on Ironite this morning, and; after
wading through a fair bit of eco-nazi frothing, found this article:

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/view_question.php?id=120

It was more balanced than any of the others.

It certainly was. Thanks.


I use Hi-Yield Copperas, which is a powder derived from ferrous
sulfate. It was recommended by more than one organic nursery, is
relatively cheap, and effective.

Where do you get it? I've not seen or heard about it here in central TN.
Who
carries it?

I think you would have to go to a nursery, not a big box store to get
it. I got it for years from a local organic nursery; but when they
retired, I was still able to get it from a more traditional nursery. I
would just call a few nurseries or plant stores near where you live
and ask if they carry it.

Will do but organic gardening isn't all that popular where I live. When I
tried to get all organic fertilizers I went into sticker shock. The cost of
blood meal and bone meal are astronomical! You'd think it was gold meal.
People with small gardens can probably afford such prices, those of us with
larger gardens would have to sell our firstborn sons.


I really miss my organic nursery, they were always willing to try and
get products that I'd read about on the web, or help me find a
suitable alternative. The biggest problem is finding potting soil
without any fertilizer in it, but that's a whine for another post.

I've learned to make my own potting soil. It's much cheaper than buying it.
Us retired people have to watch what we spend.



Penelope
--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 20:31:34 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:

"Penelope Periwinkle" wrote:

Hi-Yield Copperas

I think you would have to go to a nursery, not a big box store to get
it. I got it for years from a local organic nursery; but when they
retired, I was still able to get it from a more traditional nursery. I
would just call a few nurseries or plant stores near where you live
and ask if they carry it.

Will do but organic gardening isn't all that popular where I live. When I
tried to get all organic fertilizers I went into sticker shock. The cost of
blood meal and bone meal are astronomical! You'd think it was gold meal.
People with small gardens can probably afford such prices, those of us with
larger gardens would have to sell our firstborn sons.


I understand. There doesn't seem to be much sympathy for people on a
budget or people who don't have easy access to organic products; but I
understand where you're coming from.

Since my fav organic nursery closed two years ago, it's been difficult
to get organic products, and no one place seems to carry more than one
or two, so I end up driving all over the place.

Ad not all the big box stores like Lowe's and Home Depot carry all the
same items, so if they don't appear to have a market for organic
products in an area, that store won't carry them. Both the Lowe's and
the Home Depot nearest me don't carry much in the way of organic
products. I have to go to a Home Depot almost 25 miles away to get to
one that does, and even then, the choices are limited. It hard work to
stay organic around here!


I really miss my organic nursery, they were always willing to try and
get products that I'd read about on the web, or help me find a
suitable alternative. The biggest problem is finding potting soil
without any fertilizer in it, but that's a whine for another post.

I've learned to make my own potting soil. It's much cheaper than buying it.
Us retired people have to watch what we spend.

I used to make all my own, but I'm not retired, so free time is the
limiting factor for me.


Penelope
--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"

In article ,
Penelope Periwinkle wrote:


I understand. There doesn't seem to be much sympathy for people on a
budget or people who don't have easy access to organic products; but I
understand where you're coming from.

I have difficulty with the idea of organic soil amendments that have
the word product included. Sure dried blood, bone meal etc. and other
products are costly. But is it not a fundamental idea to put back into
the soil more than we take out. Aside Bone meal and Creutzfeldt-Jakob
disease scary.
How to do it becomes the issue. Cover crops, manures, anything once
alive. I favor wood chips as I get them delivered for free. Then there
are the trips about to barber shops to take the waste hair. Making
friends with the local high cafeteria folks to take the garbage.
Keeping those teaming microbes alive and well so we can eat off the top
of the chain.

Bill wondering why my eyelid is itching. )

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

"Bill" wrote

Penelope Periwinkle wrote:

I understand. There doesn't seem to be much sympathy for people on a
budget or people who don't have easy access to organic products; but I
understand where you're coming from.

I have difficulty with the idea of organic soil amendments that have
the word product included. Sure dried blood, bone meal etc. and other
products are costly. But is it not a fundamental idea to put back into
the soil more than we take out. Aside Bone meal and Creutzfeldt-Jakob
disease scary.

How to do it becomes the issue. Cover crops, manures, anything once
alive. I favor wood chips as I get them delivered for free. Then there
are the trips about to barber shops to take the waste hair. Making
friends with the local high cafeteria folks to take the garbage.

And coffee shops for their spent grounds

Keeping those teaming microbes alive and well so we can eat off the top
of the chain.

Not to mention the feast it would provide red worms.
http://www.unclejimswormfarm.com/ind...how_aux_page=3
Wouldn't be long before a pound turns into 10 pounds

Steve Young

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 11:38:03 -0400, Bill
wrote:
Penelope Periwinkle wrote:

I understand. There doesn't seem to be much sympathy for people on a
budget or people who don't have easy access to organic products; but I
understand where you're coming from.

I have difficulty with the idea of organic soil amendments that have
the word product included.

Why? Not everyone has the time or the free access you appear to have
to organic...er...materials. Should they be banned from trying to
garden organically?


Sure dried blood, bone meal etc. and other
products are costly. But is it not a fundamental idea to put back into
the soil more than we take out. Aside Bone meal and Creutzfeldt-Jakob
disease scary.


I don't use bone meal or blood meal for much the same reason. I did go
quite a long distance this spring to get a bag of pelleted soil
amendment that was made from a blend of cotton seed meal and other
goodies like that because it didn't use bone or blood meal. It's still
kinda high in nitrogen, though, so I used it on the lawn this spring,
and set aside a bit to till into the vegetable garden this winter. I
figure it will have been broken down enough by spring that the
nitrogen won't be a problem.


How to do it becomes the issue. Cover crops, manures, anything once
alive. I favor wood chips as I get them delivered for free. Then there
are the trips about to barber shops to take the waste hair. Making
friends with the local high cafeteria folks to take the garbage.
Keeping those teaming microbes alive and well so we can eat off the top
of the chain.

Maria has already described the steps she takes to incorporate compost
and yard clippings into her garden. I use horse manure, although I
have no one to deliver it, and must find the time to go and load lots
of buckets and trash cans, as many as I can fit into my car. Both of
us still find a need for store bought products once in a while.

I don't use cover crops or green manures because I find the horse
manure already raises the nitrogen in the soil higher than makes me
happy. I can't get yard litter from the city compost pile anymore, it
proved to be such a popular item that the city charges for it, even
for a few grocery bagfuls. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", I could, but
I refuse to pay what they're charging for a product of marginal
quality.


As to begging for...um...materials from cafeteria employees, high or
cold sober, for me it's mostly a time issue. Bully for you that you
have the luxury of time to do things like that. I don't right now.

I would like you to explain the difference to the bacteria, fungi, and
the like between store bought organic products and...uh...materials
you sponged off someone for free?


Bill wondering why my eyelid is itching. )


Along as it's not frothing...


Penelope
--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"

"Penelope Periwinkle" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 20:31:34 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:

"Penelope Periwinkle" wrote:

Hi-Yield Copperas

I think you would have to go to a nursery, not a big box store to get
it. I got it for years from a local organic nursery; but when they
retired, I was still able to get it from a more traditional nursery. I
would just call a few nurseries or plant stores near where you live
and ask if they carry it.

Will do but organic gardening isn't all that popular where I live. When I
tried to get all organic fertilizers I went into sticker shock. The cost
of
blood meal and bone meal are astronomical! You'd think it was gold meal.
People with small gardens can probably afford such prices, those of us
with
larger gardens would have to sell our firstborn sons.


I understand. There doesn't seem to be much sympathy for people on a
budget or people who don't have easy access to organic products; but I
understand where you're coming from.

It's truly shocking what the cost of organic farming/gardening has come to.
= O


Since my fav organic nursery closed two years ago, it's been difficult
to get organic products, and no one place seems to carry more than one
or two, so I end up driving all over the place.

I haven't seen anything here but fish emulsion and can't afford almost $10
for a little bottle of the stuff. It wouldn't be enough for one tomato plant
for the season. I really overspent on insecticides, both organic and
chemical this year due to the WF and spidermites.


Ad not all the big box stores like Lowe's and Home Depot carry all the
same items, so if they don't appear to have a market for organic
products in an area, that store won't carry them. Both the Lowe's and
the Home Depot nearest me don't carry much in the way of organic
products. I have to go to a Home Depot almost 25 miles away to get to
one that does, and even then, the choices are limited. It hard work to
stay organic around here!

That is a trip with the high cost of gas no less.



I really miss my organic nursery, they were always willing to try and
get products that I'd read about on the web, or help me find a
suitable alternative. The biggest problem is finding potting soil
without any fertilizer in it, but that's a whine for another post.

I've learned to make my own potting soil. It's much cheaper than buying
it.
Us retired people have to watch what we spend.

I used to make all my own, but I'm not retired, so free time is the
limiting factor for me.

I have more time and less money. :-)



Penelope
--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:47:44 -0500, Marie Dodge wrote:

I understand. There doesn't seem to be much sympathy for people on a
budget or people who don't have easy access to organic products; but I
understand where you're coming from.

It's truly shocking what the cost of organic farming/gardening has come
to. = O

No as expensive as putting unsafe chemicals on your crops.