On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:47:44 -0500, Marie Dodge wrote:

I understand. There doesn't seem to be much sympathy for people on a
budget or people who don't have easy access to organic products; but I
understand where you're coming from.

It's truly shocking what the cost of organic farming/gardening has come
to. = O

No as expensive as putting unsafe chemicals on your crops.

"jellybean stonerfish" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:47:44 -0500, Marie Dodge wrote:

I understand. There doesn't seem to be much sympathy for people on a
budget or people who don't have easy access to organic products; but I
understand where you're coming from.

It's truly shocking what the cost of organic farming/gardening has come
to. = O

No as expensive as putting unsafe chemicals on your crops.

Organic fertilizers do not keep insect infestations from occurring.

Marie Dodge wrote:

"jellybean stonerfish" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:47:44 -0500, Marie Dodge wrote:

I understand. There doesn't seem to be much sympathy for people on a
budget or people who don't have easy access to organic products; but I
understand where you're coming from.

It's truly shocking what the cost of organic farming/gardening has come
to. = O

No as expensive as putting unsafe chemicals on your crops.

Organic fertilizers do not keep insect infestations from occurring.



The theory is that lack of organic nutrients stresses the plants, and
insect pests are attracted to stressed-out plants. The latter part
seems to be true. The first part is a little iffy but it's not totally
false either.

Bob

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...

Marie Dodge wrote:

"jellybean stonerfish" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:47:44 -0500, Marie Dodge wrote:

I understand. There doesn't seem to be much sympathy for people on a
budget or people who don't have easy access to organic products; but I
understand where you're coming from.

It's truly shocking what the cost of organic farming/gardening has come
to. = O

No as expensive as putting unsafe chemicals on your crops.

Organic fertilizers do not keep insect infestations from occurring.



The theory is that lack of organic nutrients stresses the plants, and
insect pests are attracted to stressed-out plants.

That's all it is - a theory. I've been gardening since 1958 and have seen
insects attracted to the healthiest plants you can imagine. Pests are
opportunists. If they're in the area they will attack plants be they healthy
or unhealthy.

The latter part
seems to be true. The first part is a little iffy but it's not totally
false either.

And it's not totally true either. My gardens are loaded with organic
matter, yet this year the insects in one garden are totally uncontrollable.
I should have used a good chemical spray as soon as I saw the first insects
and spiders in stead of wasting several weeks with organic oils and powders
that did nothing. All they did was give the pests a good head start, to the
point the garden was a total loss by the time the ag agent recommended a
good chemical spray. More organic matter will be added this fall and for no
other reason than to help our heavy clay soil support veggies.


Bob

In article , "Marie Dodge"
wrote:.

And it's not totally true either. My gardens are loaded with organic
matter, yet this year the insects in one garden are totally uncontrollable.
I should have used a good chemical spray as soon as I saw the first insects
and spiders in stead of wasting several weeks with organic oils and powders
that did nothing. All they did was give the pests a good head start, to the
point the garden was a total loss by the time the ag agent recommended a
good chemical spray. More organic matter will be added this fall and for no
other reason than to help our heavy clay soil support veggies.

Sounds like you've never gotten past the idea that you have to dose the
garden with SOMETHING chemical and are dissatisfied with "organic oils and
powders" as an option. Organic gardening is not about store products, one
ailse for the greenies, three ailses for the people who don't care how
much damage they do to the environment. All aisles are equally about
tricking people into unnecessary purchases.

Organic home gardening is about balance. A butterfly garden intentionally
includes plants butterfly larvae will eat, and the adult butterflies will
get nectar and lay eggs. No one says "oh god the butterflies are eating my
garden, I have to kill all the butterflies!" though their larvae certainly
are eating there. It's about BALANCE so no one insect becomes so numerous
a garden is injured. You've obviously been using toxic chemicals so long
that you would have to learn patience as well as good gardening practices
to begin to restore a baolance.

You've killed foremost the BENEFICIAL insects so OF COURSE harmful ones
rush back into their ecological niches and to their favorite plants with
no natural predators remaining. The predator insects EVENTUALLY return if
you stop killing poisoning their, and your, environment.

A healthy balanced garden does not need chemical fixes. A healthy garden
will never arise from putting toxic chemicals into it. Every time you
dewscribe another problem that "forces" you to use poisons, you're
describing the result of bad gardening practices which can indeed result
in an endless "battle" with "weapons" in the war zone you've established.
My gardens are places of peace and rarely any upsets. I require no
pesticides whether marketed in the organic aisle or the harmful-gardeners
aisle. You could turn your war zone into a peaceful garden if you'd
restore an organic balance and stop re-toxifying the place every time you
get the negative results virtually all toxifiers get.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com
visit my film reviews website:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com

"paghat" wrote in message
...
In article , "Marie Dodge"
wrote:.

And it's not totally true either. My gardens are loaded with organic
matter, yet this year the insects in one garden are totally
uncontrollable.
I should have used a good chemical spray as soon as I saw the first
insects
and spiders in stead of wasting several weeks with organic oils and
powders
that did nothing. All they did was give the pests a good head start, to
the
point the garden was a total loss by the time the ag agent recommended a
good chemical spray. More organic matter will be added this fall and for
no
other reason than to help our heavy clay soil support veggies.

Sounds like you've never gotten past the idea that you have to dose the
garden with SOMETHING chemical and are dissatisfied with "organic oils and
powders" as an option.

How are they an option when they are useless? Why use them at all when
plain water would do the same thing? Sounds like you can't get past the idea
that they didn't work. If they worked the insects wouldn't have gotten out
of hand now would they?

Organic gardening is not about store products, one
ailse for the greenies, three ailses for the people who don't care how
much damage they do to the environment. All aisles are equally about
tricking people into unnecessary purchases.

And this has what to do with Ironite and the studies I can't find online
showing evidence it's harming people?

Organic home gardening is about balance. A butterfly garden intentionally
includes plants butterfly larvae will eat, and the adult butterflies will
get nectar and lay eggs. No one says "oh god the butterflies are eating my
garden, I have to kill all the butterflies!" though their larvae certainly
are eating there. It's about BALANCE so no one insect becomes so numerous
a garden is injured. You've obviously been using toxic chemicals so long
that you would have to learn patience as well as good gardening practices
to begin to restore a baolance.
You've killed foremost the BENEFICIAL insects so OF COURSE harmful ones
rush back into their ecological niches and to their favorite plants with
no natural predators remaining. The predator insects EVENTUALLY return if
you stop killing poisoning their, and your, environment.

That does not apply. Also what has it got to do with Ironite? You obviously
haven't been reading my posts since this is a NEW garden that laid fallow
for the past 2 years. The first year there were no insect pests. Why would I
waste money and time spraying anything on the plants? If there was this
magical "balance" there wouldn't be such an infestation of these two pests
in a NEW garden. That garden laid fallow under piles of leaves and garden
waste for two years after my accident.

A healthy balanced garden does not need chemical fixes.

What chemical fix? There were no chemicals used until after the insects
appeared and organic powers and sprayed did nothing... what does this have
to do with Ironite?

A healthy garden
will never arise from putting toxic chemicals into it. Every time you
dewscribe another problem that "forces" you to use poisons,

I think you have your posters confused since this is a NEW garden that had
never been sprayed with anything.


you're
describing the result of bad gardening practices which can indeed result
in an endless "battle" with "weapons" in the war zone you've established.

Huh? What are you talking about? Who are you addressing? This is a NEW
garden that lay fallow under leaves and kitchen waste for the last 2
summers!


My gardens are places of peace and rarely any upsets. I require no
pesticides whether marketed in the organic aisle or the harmful-gardeners
aisle. You could turn your war zone into a peaceful garden if you'd
restore an organic balance and stop re-toxifying the place every time you
get the negative results virtually all toxifiers get.

That does not apply. Also what has it got to do with Ironite? You obviously
haven't been reading my posts since this is a NEW garden that laid fallow
for the past 2 years. The first year there were no insect pests. Why would I
waste money and time spraying anything on the plants? If there was this
magical "balance" there wouldn't be such an infestation of these two pests
in a NEW garden. That garden laid fallow under piles of leaves and garden
waste for two years after my accident.


-paghat the ratgirl
--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com
visit my film reviews website:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com

Marie Dodge wrote:

How are they an option when they are useless? Why use them at all when plain water would do the same thing? Sounds like you can't get past the idea that they didn't work. If they worked the insects wouldn't have gotten out of hand now would they?

Sounds like you bought a bunch of expensive "organic" snake oil. No
wonder you are ****ed! The point is not that you need to buy organic
products, it's that you probably don't need to buy anything.

(But check out an insecticide called "BT". There are several varieties
and they are *targeted* to specific types of pests, especially caterpillars)

Bob

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
The EPA:

http://www.epa.gov/nrmrl/lrpcd/wm/projects/135367.htm

Release of Heavy Metals from Ironite®

Ironite® is a common fertilizer made from mine tailings available at
any lawn and garden store. The presence of heavy metals in Ironite®
has resulted in its banning in Canada and lawsuits in the United
States due to the potential release of heavy metals, most notably
arsenic and lead. Bioavailable arsenic released from Ironite® is
dependent on its mineralogical form. Previous work sponsored by the
producer of Ironite® identified the arsenic bearing phase as
arsenopyrite with the conclusion that arsenic in that form does not
pose an ecological threat. However, a closer look with EXAFS has
identified the arsenic phase within Ironite® as scorodite-like.
Scorodite is more soluble than arsenopyrite, in fact, the dissolved
arsenic released from scorodite can exceed the US drinking water
standard. In addition to the data collected at Argonne National Labs
in February 2005 that identified arsenate sorbed to iron oxides as the
dominant arsenic bearing phase, secondary identification techniques
are currently being used to confirm this finding such as
thermogravimetric analysis and Mössbauer spectroscopy.

Where is the site listing the people, animals or plants injured or killed by
the use of this product? I Googled for 15 minutes and couldn't find
anything. Not even a cancer cluster around sites where it's used.


Contacts:

Kirk Scheckel, 513/487-2865
Aaron Williams, 513/487-2878
Christopher Impelliteri, 513/487-2872
Thabet Tolaymat, 513/487-2860
James Ryan, 513/569-7653
(EIMS#135367)

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
Pags, she's not getting it. When I saw that list of pesticides...who
boy. She doesn't get that, if you nurture the soil with compost you
make for FREE or buy relatively inexpensively she wouldn't need all
the pesticides. But, alas, brick wall and all...

You're another frothing fanatic who doesn't "get it." All our gardens are
loaded with organic matter. Lying by YOU to further your "organic" agenda
wont change that fact. Stop using me as an excuse to get on your
anti-chemical soap box. Organic matter in the soil has no effect on crop
pests and plant disease.

In article , lid says...

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
Pags, she's not getting it. When I saw that list of pesticides...who
boy. She doesn't get that, if you nurture the soil with compost you
make for FREE or buy relatively inexpensively she wouldn't need all
the pesticides. But, alas, brick wall and all...

You're another frothing fanatic who doesn't "get it." All our gardens are
loaded with organic matter. Lying by YOU to further your "organic" agenda
wont change that fact. Stop using me as an excuse to get on your
anti-chemical soap box. Organic matter in the soil has no effect on crop
pests and plant disease.

No one has said it this way, so I will.

There are three integrated subjects: Pests, soil, environment. If you
ignore any of these in considering this year's problems you may be beset
by them again next year.

With regards to the pests, clearly what you've always done has failed or
is failing miserably.

The people you've posed the question to have all given their perspective
and many responses have been quite correct.

They may not answer what you see as the urgency of your situation, but
you would be served better by following up on some of them as part of an
overall plan.

The one consideration I'd like to present with regards to your
particular insect problem is pesticide resistance. If they are
resistant, the only long term practical solutions, are likely organic
ones.

With regards to the soil, iron is a micronutrient and unless something
is seriously out of whack with your land, you don't need it. If this
year's analysis says you do, kelp as a soil amendment should answer the
issue with relatively little work and with 60 or so other micronutrients
as part of the package.

If you are going by an analysis done in years gone by, you need a new
one.

In response to your comment about organic matter in the soil I'd like to
say that the healthier the soil, the healthier the plants, the less
tendency for the plants to attract garden pests.

If you've been consistently using both pesticides and herbicides over
the years, your garden's soil has probably lost some or much of the
biodiversity that builds soil, and when you build up the biodiversity
with compost each time you use the poisons, you kill it again.

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 22:07:53 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:


"Jangchub" wrote in message
. ..
Pags, she's not getting it. When I saw that list of pesticides...who
boy. She doesn't get that, if you nurture the soil with compost you
make for FREE or buy relatively inexpensively she wouldn't need all
the pesticides. But, alas, brick wall and all...

You're another frothing fanatic who doesn't "get it." All our gardens are
loaded with organic matter. Lying by YOU to further your "organic" agenda
wont change that fact. Stop using me as an excuse to get on your
anti-chemical soap box. Organic matter in the soil has no effect on crop
pests and plant disease.

Shmuck

That's exactly what you are for pushing an agenda with no scientific studies
to back you up, and not even knowing Neem Oil is sold as a miticide. Learn
to deal with the painful truth and stop frothing at the mouth.

http://gotbodhicitta-wangmo.blogspot.com/
Security is not what I have, it's what I can do without,,,