In article ,
says...

I recall the soil being pretty good in the small farm oriented dairyland
where most of my relatives lived when I was a kid. Small herds of dairy
cattle, crop rotation including legumes, some farms growing feed for the
farms with the bigger herds. I wonder how such a model can be mapped to
beef herding. What comes to my mind is - grass fed beef rather than lot
fed beef, mixed with a smaller heard strategy where the feed is closer
to local than it is with modern large beef cattle herds.

If you haven't, have a look at "A Farm for the Future" on youtube.

In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
"Doug Freyburger" wrote in message
Billy wrote:

Natural ecosystems and organic farmers are the only creators of
topsoil
today.

While true in general I wonder if there are exceptions here and there
that are of interest.

There's a wildlife preserve in the Netherlands that forms a natural
European grassland with herds of wild undulates

I think you might mean 'ungulates'. At least I assume you are but then
there might be some sort of wavy beast about that I can't bring to
mind?????

You're obviously not drinking what I'm drinking.

Unless it's non-alchoholic, then you're probably right. I'm always the duty
driver 'cos I won't ever blow over the limit.


Wild undulates, I said
that?

No, you didn't say that, Doug did. But I liked it a lot too.

I like it;o) I like it a lot. I like it too much!? I like it.
Think I'll go slip into something drier. Feelin' a little humid.

Perhaps an aspirin might help too?

For me, or for you?
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/7/2/maude
http://english.aljazeera.net/video/m...515308172.html

FarmI wrote:
"Doug Freyburger" wrote in message

There's a wildlife preserve in the Netherlands that forms a natural
European grassland with herds of wild undulates

I think you might mean 'ungulates'. At least I assume you are but then
there might be some sort of wavy beast about that I can't bring to mind?????

Thanks for noticing my typo! Now I have visions of herds of wild grass
eating caterpillars (which I had to look up in the dictionary to make
sure I didn't make a similar spelling error ;^). When they all go into
cocoons look out! We all know that their adult form is to replace
humans with body snatchers. We're doomed.

In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...

I recall the soil being pretty good in the small farm oriented dairyland
where most of my relatives lived when I was a kid. Small herds of dairy
cattle, crop rotation including legumes, some farms growing feed for the
farms with the bigger herds. I wonder how such a model can be mapped to
beef herding. What comes to my mind is - grass fed beef rather than lot
fed beef, mixed with a smaller heard strategy where the feed is closer
to local than it is with modern large beef cattle herds.

If you haven't, have a look at "A Farm for the Future" on youtube.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution

From above URL.

Romanticism
Main article: Romanticism
During the Industrial Revolution an intellectual and artistic hostility
towards the new industrialisation developed. This was known as the
Romantic movement. Its major exponents in English included the artist
and poet William Blake and poets William Wordsworth, Samuel Taylor
Coleridge, John Keats, Lord Byron and Percy Bysshe Shelley. The movement
stressed the importance of "nature" in art and language, in contrast to
"monstrous" machines and factories; the "Dark satanic mills" of Blake's
poem "And did those feet in ancient time". Mary Shelley's novel
Frankenstein reflected concerns that scientific progress might be
two-edged.
[edit]


Look for Albion and Blake and Wagner for past transgressions ))

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q0JfdP36kI

Doug Freyburger wrote:

Now I have started to wonder how herd management might be conducted so
it grows topsoil instead of depleting it. Buffalo herds were a part
of the North American grasslands and soil building in grasslands was
discussed. Current herding methods deplete soil - How to change that
so they build soil?

I recall the soil being pretty good in the small farm oriented
dairyland where most of my relatives lived when I was a kid. Small
herds of dairy cattle, crop rotation including legumes, some farms
growing feed for the farms with the bigger herds. I wonder how such
a model can be mapped to beef herding. What comes to my mind is -
grass fed beef rather than lot fed beef, mixed with a smaller heard
strategy where the feed is closer to local than it is with modern
large beef cattle herds.

Most beef cattle in Australia are raised on grass although finishing them in
lots is reasonably common. Like all farming it's hard work but it isn't
impossible. Somehow they manage to do it economically so that our export
beef competes so well on the USA market that Uncle Sam raises tarriff
barriers against it. So much for friends and allies. The big ag lobby has
much to answer for.

This industry does use synthetic fertiliser (Oz farmers just looove
superphosphate) but there is some movement towards more sustainable systems.
One reason super is entrenched is - guess what - government subsidy. For
years the 'superphosphate bounty' made it easy not to think, just put on
more super. Sure Oz has phosphate deficient soils in many areas. However
over the years millions of tons of super has been applied, where has it
gone? Probably growing water plants and algae in the rivers. It isn't in
the soil or if it is it isn't available because in many cases they have to
keep applying it.

David

In article ,
says...
In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...

I recall the soil being pretty good in the small farm oriented dairyland
where most of my relatives lived when I was a kid. Small herds of dairy
cattle, crop rotation including legumes, some farms growing feed for the
farms with the bigger herds. I wonder how such a model can be mapped to
beef herding. What comes to my mind is - grass fed beef rather than lot
fed beef, mixed with a smaller heard strategy where the feed is closer
to local than it is with modern large beef cattle herds.

If you haven't, have a look at "A Farm for the Future" on youtube.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution

From above URL.

Romanticism
Main article: Romanticism
During the Industrial Revolution an intellectual and artistic hostility
towards the new industrialisation developed. This was known as the
Romantic movement. Its major exponents in English included the artist
and poet William Blake and poets William Wordsworth, Samuel Taylor
Coleridge, John Keats, Lord Byron and Percy Bysshe Shelley. The movement
stressed the importance of "nature" in art and language, in contrast to
"monstrous" machines and factories; the "Dark satanic mills" of Blake's
poem "And did those feet in ancient time". Mary Shelley's novel
Frankenstein reflected concerns that scientific progress might be
two-edged.
[edit]


Look for Albion and Blake and Wagner for past transgressions ))


If you're responding to the link I posted, "Did you look up the video
and watch all of it?"

If not, I have little to say except that I may be a romantic but not
about gardens, farms, agriculture etc. ...and I've worked in industry
and feel the the terms used to describe the machines, mills and
factories in the wiki article and poetry don't do them justice.

I took lit crit in uni btw.

In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...
In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...

I recall the soil being pretty good in the small farm oriented dairyland
where most of my relatives lived when I was a kid. Small herds of dairy
cattle, crop rotation including legumes, some farms growing feed for the
farms with the bigger herds. I wonder how such a model can be mapped to
beef herding. What comes to my mind is - grass fed beef rather than lot
fed beef, mixed with a smaller heard strategy where the feed is closer
to local than it is with modern large beef cattle herds.

If you haven't, have a look at "A Farm for the Future" on youtube.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution

From above URL.

Romanticism
Main article: Romanticism
During the Industrial Revolution an intellectual and artistic hostility
towards the new industrialisation developed. This was known as the
Romantic movement. Its major exponents in English included the artist
and poet William Blake and poets William Wordsworth, Samuel Taylor
Coleridge, John Keats, Lord Byron and Percy Bysshe Shelley. The movement
stressed the importance of "nature" in art and language, in contrast to
"monstrous" machines and factories; the "Dark satanic mills" of Blake's
poem "And did those feet in ancient time". Mary Shelley's novel
Frankenstein reflected concerns that scientific progress might be
two-edged.
[edit]


Look for Albion and Blake and Wagner for past transgressions ))


If you're responding to the link I posted, "Did you look up the video
and watch all of it?"

If not, I have little to say except that I may be a romantic but not
about gardens, farms, agriculture etc. ...and I've worked in industry
and feel the the terms used to describe the machines, mills and
factories in the wiki article and poetry don't do them justice.

I took lit crit in uni btw.

http://www.americainfra.com/news/perfect-storm/

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q0JfdP36kI

In article ,
says...

http://www.americainfra.com/news/perfect-storm/

LOL

One of the reasons I suggested "A Farm for the Future" is that one
farmer has been developing a grass/plant mix that protects the soil and
allows him to keep his animals on wet pasture during a British winter.

As for the link you posted... I think we're past the point where we need
to know anything but what we already know. Badness is coming our way,
stupid technologies won't help us survive and we must be prepared for
dry, wet, or both; with a plan A & B, knowledge, experience, seed and
community.

Our year has been too dry and our summer, too hot.

In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...

http://www.americainfra.com/news/perfect-storm/

LOL

One of the reasons I suggested "A Farm for the Future" is that one
farmer has been developing a grass/plant mix that protects the soil and
allows him to keep his animals on wet pasture during a British winter.

As for the link you posted... I think we're past the point where we need
to know anything but what we already know. Badness is coming our way,
stupid technologies won't help us survive and we must be prepared for
dry, wet, or both; with a plan A & B, knowledge, experience, seed and
community.

Our year has been too dry and our summer, too hot.

Was this on 1/5 or latter I gave up after 1/5 video. I'm not sure
badness in the cards but fear sure seems to be about. Last time I
looked fear inhibits movement. Much better to mimic good when you see
it and get on.
I've been making topsoil for over 45 or 50 years neighbors wonder
why. But I consider it gold along with Good quality hand tools.
My well that I drove with my dad 38 years ago may be failing due to
well point rot. I'm told I can get a new well BUT the old one must be
destroyed. I want a back up hand pump for power failure. Stinks but
the health department want and controls the wells per dwelling. This
in water rich S. Jersey.

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q0JfdP36kI

In article ,
says...

As for the link you posted... I think we're past the point where we need
to know anything but what we already know. Badness is coming our way,
stupid technologies won't help us survive and we must be prepared for
dry, wet, or both; with a plan A & B, knowledge, experience, seed and
community.

Our year has been too dry and our summer, too hot.

Was this on 1/5 or latter I gave up after 1/5 video. I'm not sure
badness in the cards but fear sure seems to be about. Last time I
looked fear inhibits movement. Much better to mimic good when you see
it and get on.

A local has a full copy from BBC with public showing rights so I've seen
the whole thing as it's meant to be seen.

I forget exactly where it is in the video. ...To sum up the relatively
short segment, it's possible to design pasture that builds and protects
the soil so that you can overwinter animals in the pasture, even in the
wet conditions of Britain.

I've been making topsoil for over 45 or 50 years neighbors wonder
why. But I consider it gold along with Good quality hand tools.

Everyone I know does and feels the same about good quality tools though
many don't get the need to have *sharpened* good quality hand tools.

I just shake my head when someone tries to hammer through a root with a
dull garden spade or bludgeons the hell out of weeds with a blunt hoe.

The two maintenance tools everyone should have are a grinder to create
sharp edges and a good file to maintain sharp edges while you work.

My well that I drove with my dad 38 years ago may be failing due to
well point rot. I'm told I can get a new well BUT the old one must be
destroyed. I want a back up hand pump for power failure. Stinks but
the health department want and controls the wells per dwelling. This
in water rich S. Jersey.

Geez... Can you apply for an exemption to that bit of law?

In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...

I recall the soil being pretty good in the small farm oriented dairyland
where most of my relatives lived when I was a kid. Small herds of dairy
cattle, crop rotation including legumes, some farms growing feed for the
farms with the bigger herds. I wonder how such a model can be mapped to
beef herding. What comes to my mind is - grass fed beef rather than lot
fed beef, mixed with a smaller heard strategy where the feed is closer
to local than it is with modern large beef cattle herds.

If you haven't, have a look at "A Farm for the Future" on youtube.

Boy, you don't see them at all, and then you look, and they are
everywhere. Thanks for "A Farm for the Future".
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=a+farm+for+the+future&aq=0

Seems the first two installments were just setting the scene. The last
three were very good.
Thicker grass to prevent damage to the pasture by the steers, perennial
crops, like nuts, replacing grains, increasing production by reducing
size and increasing diversity, working smart instead of working hard, to
re-ruralization, and a return for many to agriculture.

Excellent little video.

Britain already imports 40% of its food. If they can double their
agricultural out-put, they can be self sufficient. Here in the U.S., our
problems are the health effect of the grains that we grow, and the
tenacity with which grain processors will exert to hang on to them.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/7/2/maude
http://english.aljazeera.net/video/m...515308172.html

In article
,
Billy wrote:

If you haven't, have a look at "A Farm for the Future" on youtube.

Boy, you don't see them at all, and then you look, and they are
everywhere. Thanks for "A Farm for the Future".
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=a+farm+for+the+future&aq=0

Seems the first two installments were just setting the scene. The last
three were very good.
Thicker grass to prevent damage to the pasture by the steers, perennial
crops, like nuts, replacing grains, increasing production by reducing
size and increasing diversity, working smart instead of working hard, to
re-ruralization, and a return for many to agriculture.

Excellent little video.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn.../04/ST20100904
00158.html?sid=ST2010090400158

Scientists find evidence discrediting theory Amazon was virtually
unlivable

By Juan Forero
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, September 5, 2010

Article in the local fish wrap today about the Amazon, terra preta, and
orchards. Pre-Columbian terra preta; "black, nutrient-rich, as good for
agriculture as the soil in Iowa." Still fertile after 5 centuries of
neglect. The Amazonian orchards, resonate with the no-till permaculture
orchards envisioned in "A Farm for the Future". Forward to the past,
where annual plants will play a smaller part in agriculture, and the
tropics will play a larger part in food production?
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/7/2/maude
http://english.aljazeera.net/video/m...515308172.html

http://westgatehouse.com/art9.html

On Cuba and sustain ability.

""In America, the work I do is on the fringe, says Rieux. "Organic
farming is still perceived as unusual and far from the norm. It was
exciting to be in a place where the efforts of the entire government are
behind sustainable agriculture. (Sustainable agriculture refers to an
integrated system whereby the gardener works within natural biological
cycles and uses only naturally occurring resources.) The idea of the
small urban farm being highly productive, sustainable and the source of
a nice income was heartening to see. Cuba proves it's feasible, it's
happening.
With limited gasoline to transport, refrigerate and store food from the
countryside, food production was brought to the cities. Cuba now has one
of the most successful urban agriculture programs in the world. The
State is making unused land available to fledgling urban farmers and
thousands of empty lots have been turned into organic oases.
In Havana alone there are 8,000 organic gardens producing a million tons
of food annually. The gardens range in size from a few meters to several
hectares. The urban farmers primarily grow lettuce, bok choy, onions,
chard, radishes, tomato, cabbage and broccoli. Gardens can employ
anywhere from one to 70 people depending on the size of the garden. And
people from all walks of life are participating."

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q0JfdP36kI

In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

http://westgatehouse.com/art9.html

On Cuba and sustain ability.

""In America, the work I do is on the fringe, says Rieux. "Organic
farming is still perceived as unusual and far from the norm. It was
exciting to be in a place where the efforts of the entire government are
behind sustainable agriculture. (Sustainable agriculture refers to an
integrated system whereby the gardener works within natural biological
cycles and uses only naturally occurring resources.) The idea of the
small urban farm being highly productive, sustainable and the source of
a nice income was heartening to see. Cuba proves it's feasible, it's
happening.
With limited gasoline to transport, refrigerate and store food from the
countryside, food production was brought to the cities. Cuba now has one
of the most successful urban agriculture programs in the world. The
State is making unused land available to fledgling urban farmers and
thousands of empty lots have been turned into organic oases.
In Havana alone there are 8,000 organic gardens producing a million tons
of food annually. The gardens range in size from a few meters to several
hectares. The urban farmers primarily grow lettuce, bok choy, onions,
chard, radishes, tomato, cabbage and broccoli. Gardens can employ
anywhere from one to 70 people depending on the size of the garden. And
people from all walks of life are participating."

It definitely appears that the future of agriculture will be
diversification, and re-ruralization with a return to the land for much
of the work force. From roof-tops, to balconies, to sustainable
pastures, and to forest farming, each niche must be taken advantage of,
if we are all to be fed. Hope is held out in the form of voluntary,
smaller, family sizes, but between "Global Warming" and Malthusian "Over
Population" we (the species Homo sapien, among others) will be walking a
tight rope for the next century.

It is the end to giant monocultures, that seems to be the lynch-pin in
this scenario. It removes the need for fossil fuel fertilizers, and ends
the need to till the land, allowing for the return of topsoil and the
sequestration of CO2.

Native Americans, both north and south knew how to manage forests for
food. Is seems it is time to put the grass farming behind us, and to
look seriously at what was destroyed in the way of sylvan agriculture.
Garnish and veggies supply important nutrients, but we still need
calories that only fat and carbs can provide.

I await David, to try and pop by bubble of optimism ;O)
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/7/2/maude
http://english.aljazeera.net/video/m...515308172.html

"Billy" wrote in message

Thicker grass to prevent damage to the pasture by the steers, perennial
crops, like nuts, replacing grains, increasing production by reducing
size and increasing diversity, working smart instead of working hard,

Sounds like Permaculture.