I've done a little research and understand the history and basics of a four-square garden. I'm in
the process of transforming an area of my backyard into a garden. I like the concept of the
four-square design and will be using raised beds due to my soil conditions. I'm trying to get a
better visualization of the garden and am looking for any design ideas. I've picked up a book on
kitchen gardens and though it referenced the four-square design, it didn't give me anything with
which to better visualize the layout, size and scope of the garden. Does anyone have experience
with this sort of design or can point me to some pictures or layouts?

Many Thanks
Dutch

"Dutchman" wrote in message
...
I've done a little research and understand the history and basics of a
four-square garden. I'm in
the process of transforming an area of my backyard into a garden. I like
the concept of the
four-square design and will be using raised beds due to my soil
conditions. I'm trying to get a
better visualization of the garden and am looking for any design ideas.
I've picked up a book on
kitchen gardens and though it referenced the four-square design, it didn't
give me anything with
which to better visualize the layout, size and scope of the garden. Does
anyone have experience
with this sort of design or can point me to some pictures or layouts?

Many Thanks
Dutch
Good question, actually.
The background is he
http://www.bbg.org/gar2/topics/kitch...n/simpson.html
for anyone interested. As to a virtual 3d layout, sorry. Best bet is drawing
paper (1/4" blocks) ruler and pencil. We do a fair number of Edibles garden
designs but each space is different so there are few useful "rules" other
than the normal stuff; slope if any, east/south/west solar path, prevailing
wind, any trees that may shade too much, etc.
Gardening is learning!

--
John H. Immink

www.renaissancegardens.com/

I'm not sure what 4 Sq. is, but last year we built a 5ft x 10ft x 2 cinder
block hi, veggie bed, bought soil n stuff, I put a faucet inside, we use Ozz
hose too water,,
It is the "best" garden we ever had,, being over 65yrs, sitting n weeding,
harvesting,,
is Grand,, hope this helps!,,, am building several more!,,
ed, sitting in Ca. zone 8-9 :-)


"Dutchman" wrote in message
...
I've done a little research and understand the history and basics of a
four-square garden. I'm in
the process of transforming an area of my backyard into a garden. I like
the concept of the
four-square design and will be using raised beds due to my soil
conditions. I'm trying to get a
better visualization of the garden and am looking for any design ideas.
I've picked up a book on
kitchen gardens and though it referenced the four-square design, it didn't
give me anything with
which to better visualize the layout, size and scope of the garden. Does
anyone have experience
with this sort of design or can point me to some pictures or layouts?

Many Thanks
Dutch

On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:13:36 -0400, "Dutchman"
wrote:

I've done a little research and understand the history and basics of a four-square garden. I'm in
the process of transforming an area of my backyard into a garden. I like the concept of the
four-square design and will be using raised beds due to my soil conditions. I'm trying to get a
better visualization of the garden and am looking for any design ideas. I've picked up a book on
kitchen gardens and though it referenced the four-square design, it didn't give me anything with
which to better visualize the layout, size and scope of the garden. Does anyone have experience
with this sort of design or can point me to some pictures or layouts?



Have you seen http://www.squarefootgardening.com ? If not,
I think you'll find it interesting.

The site has several photos of square-foot gardens which
could certainly be arranged in a 4-square pattern.

Pat

Thanks John,

I ran across that site as part of the research. I have also checked out the square-foot gardening
approach and have Mel's book.

It appears to me that most classic four-square designs have a conventional approach to the plantings
in each of the squares, i.e. the vegetables are planted in rows within each square with conventional
spacing between plants and rows. The picture of the four-square on the web page you provided
illustrates that. The square-foot gardening approach, as do other intensive planting schemas, has
raised beds and bed widths of only about 4 feet, much smaller than the area of one of the squares in
a kitchen garden.

So am I correct in assuming that the classic four-square kitchen garden doesn't really fit well with
the raised bed intensive gardening approach?

Herein lies my dilemma. I like the idea of raised beds because of soil conditions on my property
and the ability to grow things in a more compact area. I also very much like the aesthetics, the
historical flavor and the nostalgia, if you will, of the classic kitchen garden. I fear if I try to
use raised beds, in the mold of square-foot gardening approach, I will lose that and my garden will
resemble a lot of sandboxes (that what some raised beds look like to me).

BTW, I like your approach to bed design. Some plants can become nuisances due to their invasive
nature. Your designs help reign them in.

Dutch


"ecologicals" wrote in message
a...



"Dutchman" wrote in message
...
I've done a little research and understand the history and basics of a
four-square garden. I'm in
the process of transforming an area of my backyard into a garden. I like
the concept of the
four-square design and will be using raised beds due to my soil
conditions. I'm trying to get a
better visualization of the garden and am looking for any design ideas.
I've picked up a book on
kitchen gardens and though it referenced the four-square design, it didn't
give me anything with
which to better visualize the layout, size and scope of the garden. Does
anyone have experience
with this sort of design or can point me to some pictures or layouts?

Many Thanks
Dutch
Good question, actually.
The background is he
http://www.bbg.org/gar2/topics/kitch...n/simpson.html
for anyone interested. As to a virtual 3d layout, sorry. Best bet is drawing
paper (1/4" blocks) ruler and pencil. We do a fair number of Edibles garden
designs but each space is different so there are few useful "rules" other
than the normal stuff; slope if any, east/south/west solar path, prevailing
wind, any trees that may shade too much, etc.
Gardening is learning!

--
John H. Immink

www.renaissancegardens.com/

"Dutchman" wrote in message
...
... I like the idea of raised beds because of soil conditions on my
property
and the ability to grow things in a more compact area. I also very
much like the aesthetics, the
historical flavor and the nostalgia, if you will, of the classic
kitchen garden. I fear if I try to
use raised beds, in the mold of square-foot gardening approach, I will
lose that and my garden will
resemble a lot of sandboxes (that what some raised beds look like to
me). ...
...

Most "Square Foot Gardens" are in raised beds but it isn't really
necessary and may be a disadvantage in regions with hot dry summer
breezes that would cause the raised beds to dry out too fast. You can
lay out a square foot garden bed without raising it. An arrangement of
ground-level sqft beds can be attractive. -Olin

In article ,
says...
On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 15:13:36 -0400, "Dutchman"
wrote:

I've done a little research and understand the history and basics of a four-square garden. I'm in
the process of transforming an area of my backyard into a garden. I like the concept of the
four-square design and will be using raised beds due to my soil conditions. I'm trying to get a
better visualization of the garden and am looking for any design ideas. I've picked up a book on
kitchen gardens and though it referenced the four-square design, it didn't give me anything with
which to better visualize the layout, size and scope of the garden. Does anyone have experience
with this sort of design or can point me to some pictures or layouts?



Have you seen http://www.squarefootgardening.com ? If not,
I think you'll find it interesting.

The site has several photos of square-foot gardens which
could certainly be arranged in a 4-square pattern.

Pat


I looked at the site and saw the part about growing squash vertically.
Then I looked out my window and admired my single spaghetti squash
it's a volunteer from last year, I hadn't planned on growing spaghetti
squash this year plant that's grown to 25 feet across and 6 feet up
the reinforcing wire I usually use for tomato cages and smiled. Some
veggies qualify for "many square foot" gardening. It's got 22 squash
on it and still blooming and growing .

OTOH, I'm growing a "bush" cucumber in a 18" pot that's only 2 feet
across and 1.5 feet high with about 6 cukes on it. There were 7 but we
made cucumber and onion salad with one, flavor is on the mild side and
I'll definately be growing more of them next year. Elephant garlic is
doing well in another 18" inch pot. "Patio" tomato in another 18" pot,
18" across and about 2 feet tall with about 2 doz. green tomatos on it.
Can't wait to see what they taste like.

Bill

"Dutchman" wrote in message
...
Thanks John,

I ran across that site as part of the research. I have also checked out
the square-foot gardening
approach and have Mel's book.

It appears to me that most classic four-square designs have a conventional
approach to the plantings
in each of the squares, i.e. the vegetables are planted in rows within
each square with conventional
spacing between plants and rows. The picture of the four-square on the
web page you provided
illustrates that. The square-foot gardening approach, as do other
intensive planting schemas, has
raised beds and bed widths of only about 4 feet, much smaller than the
area of one of the squares in
a kitchen garden.

So am I correct in assuming that the classic four-square kitchen garden
doesn't really fit well with
the raised bed intensive gardening approach?

Herein lies my dilemma. I like the idea of raised beds because of soil
conditions on my property
and the ability to grow things in a more compact area. I also very much
like the aesthetics, the
historical flavor and the nostalgia, if you will, of the classic kitchen
garden. I fear if I try to
use raised beds, in the mold of square-foot gardening approach, I will
lose that and my garden will
resemble a lot of sandboxes (that what some raised beds look like to me).

BTW, I like your approach to bed design. Some plants can become nuisances
due to their invasive
nature. Your designs help reign them in.

Dutch


snippola all that stuffola

Met plezier gedaan!

snip
So am I correct in assuming that the classic four-square kitchen garden
doesn't really fit well with
the raised bed intensive gardening approach?
endsnip

Yes and no. While intensive (aka Belgian) close-spaced planting is 'de
rigeur', it is merely yet another gardening technique. Some swear by lasagna
layering, others like myself prefer to use vermiculture as the basis for
maintaining a balanced soil. With products like mine, space is limited and
bare soil does not help, so notably when growing edibles, rows of plants are
best avoided in favour of 'bunching' plants together. The classic 4sq design
was feasible when gardening space was available, in Dutch a 'hof' such as
the original Keukenhof gardens. Mooie moestuinen.This combined a semi-formal
'presence' with utility: growing edibles to provide nutrition. Then again,
the Dutch and English et.al. did not have a supermarket to drop by, you grew
it or you did without. The fact that these gardeners did take the time to
create a 'green zone' that served to please the eye as well as the cook
indicates that their values were sound or perhaps they had the means ie time
to devote to creating and maintaining a focal point like a four square. It
may have been status but I suspect that these folks simply desired and
enjoyed a beautiful albeit small 'natural retreat'.

Can this be transmogrified into today's 'values'? I dunno... Things have
changed and not for the better. The people I work with do such things for
reasons such as 'curb appeal' and 'equity building' more than to actually
touch, let alone understand the complexity of a soil. When someone asked
"how much dirt will it take" I cringe. But I digress....

You could compromise, of course. While 99% of the raised beds we shill are
limited to 4' width due to ergonomic considerations, we did once do a 8 wide
x 24 long perennial/herb bed. With that sort of soil space, a few
strategically placed concrete block 'stepping stones' sunk (small side up)
into about a foot of soil make for a permanent pathway, then simply connect
the stones with pieces of slate (flat stone) for a visually
pleasing-but-narrow meandering path. Good place for beneficials like toads
to hide! The boxy look can be softened by planting cascading ornamentals -
even nasturtiums will flow over and soften the hard edges of any structure.
Another aspect is actual depth of soil; a 2 foot rubble pad that has been fl
at compacted, then a 12-18 inch raised bed on top of that pad makes for a
reasonably elevated raised bed. Making that hump a 2 stage elevation, you
end up with that higher background for biannuals such as lovage, the lower
foreground would be used for rapidly growing leafy greens.

The square box look is a fact of material/cost economy yet nothing in Nature
is at 90 degrees, pouring a concrete 'flowing' wall would cost about as much
as lumber or recycled plastic but would allow for gradual curves. We did a
few field stone raised beds and I cannot understand why people do not take
the time/effort to use natural materials such as stones, it lasts and it
creates warm spots that notably strawberries appreciate. Using good quality
lumber, you could simply machine 'keyways' into a 4x4 post at 45 degrees and
then create a less rigid looking soil containing structure, say octagonal.
The l. x w. shape is limited indeed but few people wish to take the time to
truly create a long-term garden structure.

It has been said that you do not need a raised bed container as such. In
truth, much depends on climate conditions, few things are as annoying as
having to shovel soil back in place after a hard rain. In a hot and dry
climate, the obvious solution is a Sunken Bed whereby the soil surface is
slightly lower than the substrate, allowing for better moisture retention
notably if mulched heavily. In an arid climate, dessication by wind can be
partially controlled by sinking the growing surface below grade.

Sorry to carry on about all this. In a nutshell, I would approach your
design in 4 stages, do each stage to the point where you can 'see' the next
stage 'fitting in'. Use field stone if you can pick it up gratis, this is
how the ancients formed raised beds, from the Vikings to even further back
in history. Soil is everything, so take your time to create a living soil in
each compartment. A project like this may well take 3 years but the journey
is the destination!

Thanks for sharing your ideas! It sounds like a great project and even the
time invested in researching is time well spend!

John

Dutchman wrote:

I've done a little research and understand the history and basics of a
four-square garden. I'm in
the process of transforming an area of my backyard into a garden. I like
the concept of the
four-square design and will be using raised beds due to my soil
conditions. I'm trying to get a
better visualization of the garden and am looking for any design ideas.
I've picked up a book on kitchen gardens and though it referenced the
four-square design, it didn't give me anything with
which to better visualize the layout, size and scope of the garden. Does
anyone have experience with this sort of design or can point me to some
pictures or layouts?

Many Thanks
Dutch


Wow ... you've gotten some pretty good responses so far. I just want to toss
in a viewpoint. Why not combine the concepts of a knot garden with the
foursquare in which each of the four larger quadrants are themselves
divided into smaller quadrants? The main paths could be both wider and made
of a different material than the side paths. Moreover, if you wish to avoid
the boxy look altogether you could align lumber vertically and connect it
with heavy-gauge wire instead of other lumber. You could also go with a
shingle overlap joint that would flex enough for gentle curves. Once in
place, anchor to posts set in the ground. For instance, a cluster of four
round containers could occupy each of the quadrants.

In my own garden (NOT a foursquare design) I dug 2' trenches the length and
width of the intended bed, backfilled them with baled hay (left baled to
slow their decay)then placed 2'tall open ended boxes above them and used
the displaced soil, mixed with additional compost to back fill them. As the
soil subsides, the top is kept level to slightly rounded with additional
applications of compost used as a mulch. This method of soil preparation,
while a lot of work initially, is giving me great results because my roots
have loose, rich soil a long ways down. Thanks to the baled hay, I estimate
that it will be at least 10 years before my soil even starts to compact and
a long time after that before compaction would be serious enough to begin
hindering roots. Ten foot tall trellises were part of the original box
construction and both my tomatoes and my beans topped the trellises last
year ... my beans by the first week in July ... my indeterminant tomatoes
in early September.

Bill

John,

You gave me quite a bit to think about and for that I thank you sir.

I am not space constrained and in fact, I have acres to play with if I so
desired and the budget would allow. The budget doesn't and I always said I
wanted to die at this place I call home, I just don't want it to kill me.

That said, I think I am going to start with sufficient room and a thought in
mind to build a 'rustic' four-square since my home is a rustic cedar. I saw
a fence with hand-made pickets somewhere that struck my fancy. That may be
my border (until I change my mind). I'm also thinking about placing
high-bush blueberries outside the fence on the upwind (west) side of the
plot to act as a windbreak and continue the border. I think I'll start on
paper with a 40' x 40' design and see where that goes.

I will certainly go with raised beds because of the clay soils and poor
drainage I currently have. I discovered that digging a hole in my turf
resulted in a bowl that was going to hold water no matter how well I
prepared the soil that went into it. I am also not going to worry about the
borders for my beds for the time being but concentrate on building up the
beds and taking the time to create the proper conditions for my plantings.
I have three very large compost piles in the works at this moment and have
access to plenty of manure. I plan to use both in good proportions as well
as perhaps some other lasagna ingredients such as soured hay.

"...I suspect that these folks simply desired and enjoyed a beautiful albeit
small 'natural retreat'..." I couldn't have express my thoughts and desires
better.

Again many thanks, and yes it will be a multi-year project.

Dutch



"ecologicals" wrote in message
a...



"Dutchman" wrote in message
...
Thanks John,

I ran across that site as part of the research. I have also checked out
the square-foot gardening
approach and have Mel's book.

It appears to me that most classic four-square designs have a
conventional
approach to the plantings
in each of the squares, i.e. the vegetables are planted in rows within
each square with conventional
spacing between plants and rows. The picture of the four-square on the
web page you provided
illustrates that. The square-foot gardening approach, as do other
intensive planting schemas, has
raised beds and bed widths of only about 4 feet, much smaller than the
area of one of the squares in
a kitchen garden.

So am I correct in assuming that the classic four-square kitchen garden
doesn't really fit well with
the raised bed intensive gardening approach?

Herein lies my dilemma. I like the idea of raised beds because of soil
conditions on my property
and the ability to grow things in a more compact area. I also very much
like the aesthetics, the
historical flavor and the nostalgia, if you will, of the classic kitchen
garden. I fear if I try to
use raised beds, in the mold of square-foot gardening approach, I will
lose that and my garden will
resemble a lot of sandboxes (that what some raised beds look like to
me).

BTW, I like your approach to bed design. Some plants can become
nuisances
due to their invasive
nature. Your designs help reign them in.

Dutch


snippola all that stuffola

Met plezier gedaan!

snip
So am I correct in assuming that the classic four-square kitchen garden
doesn't really fit well with
the raised bed intensive gardening approach?
endsnip

Yes and no. While intensive (aka Belgian) close-spaced planting is 'de
rigeur', it is merely yet another gardening technique. Some swear by
lasagna
layering, others like myself prefer to use vermiculture as the basis for
maintaining a balanced soil. With products like mine, space is limited and
bare soil does not help, so notably when growing edibles, rows of plants
are
best avoided in favour of 'bunching' plants together. The classic 4sq
design
was feasible when gardening space was available, in Dutch a 'hof' such as
the original Keukenhof gardens. Mooie moestuinen.This combined a
semi-formal
'presence' with utility: growing edibles to provide nutrition. Then again,
the Dutch and English et.al. did not have a supermarket to drop by, you
grew
it or you did without. The fact that these gardeners did take the time to
create a 'green zone' that served to please the eye as well as the cook
indicates that their values were sound or perhaps they had the means ie
time
to devote to creating and maintaining a focal point like a four square. It
may have been status but I suspect that these folks simply desired and
enjoyed a beautiful albeit small 'natural retreat'.

Can this be transmogrified into today's 'values'? I dunno... Things have
changed and not for the better. The people I work with do such things for
reasons such as 'curb appeal' and 'equity building' more than to actually
touch, let alone understand the complexity of a soil. When someone asked
"how much dirt will it take" I cringe. But I digress....

You could compromise, of course. While 99% of the raised beds we shill are
limited to 4' width due to ergonomic considerations, we did once do a 8
wide
x 24 long perennial/herb bed. With that sort of soil space, a few
strategically placed concrete block 'stepping stones' sunk (small side up)
into about a foot of soil make for a permanent pathway, then simply
connect
the stones with pieces of slate (flat stone) for a visually
pleasing-but-narrow meandering path. Good place for beneficials like toads
to hide! The boxy look can be softened by planting cascading ornamentals -
even nasturtiums will flow over and soften the hard edges of any
structure.
Another aspect is actual depth of soil; a 2 foot rubble pad that has been
fl
at compacted, then a 12-18 inch raised bed on top of that pad makes for a
reasonably elevated raised bed. Making that hump a 2 stage elevation, you
end up with that higher background for biannuals such as lovage, the lower
foreground would be used for rapidly growing leafy greens.

The square box look is a fact of material/cost economy yet nothing in
Nature
is at 90 degrees, pouring a concrete 'flowing' wall would cost about as
much
as lumber or recycled plastic but would allow for gradual curves. We did a
few field stone raised beds and I cannot understand why people do not take
the time/effort to use natural materials such as stones, it lasts and it
creates warm spots that notably strawberries appreciate. Using good
quality
lumber, you could simply machine 'keyways' into a 4x4 post at 45 degrees
and
then create a less rigid looking soil containing structure, say octagonal.
The l. x w. shape is limited indeed but few people wish to take the time
to
truly create a long-term garden structure.

It has been said that you do not need a raised bed container as such. In
truth, much depends on climate conditions, few things are as annoying as
having to shovel soil back in place after a hard rain. In a hot and dry
climate, the obvious solution is a Sunken Bed whereby the soil surface is
slightly lower than the substrate, allowing for better moisture retention
notably if mulched heavily. In an arid climate, dessication by wind can be
partially controlled by sinking the growing surface below grade.

Sorry to carry on about all this. In a nutshell, I would approach your
design in 4 stages, do each stage to the point where you can 'see' the
next
stage 'fitting in'. Use field stone if you can pick it up gratis, this is
how the ancients formed raised beds, from the Vikings to even further back
in history. Soil is everything, so take your time to create a living soil
in
each compartment. A project like this may well take 3 years but the
journey
is the destination!

Thanks for sharing your ideas! It sounds like a great project and even the
time invested in researching is time well spend!

John

Great comments Bill!

I hadn't thought about the knot -foursquare hybrid. That will certainly
keep the garden from looking like an army parade field. I'll have to play
with that a bit on paper. As I mentioned in my response to John, I'm
looking at a 40' x 40' garden area but may have to expand it a bit if I
adapt your hybrid idea.

So you buried whole bales of hay? I've heard of using hay in a lasagna bed
but not the whole bale. And you've had good results across the board with
it? Curious, have you tried that with deep rooted perennials or shrubbery?
I'm curious how the bales would hold up. I think I'll have to give that a
try.

Thanks a bunch!
Dutch


"Noydb" wrote in message
...
Dutchman wrote:

I've done a little research and understand the history and basics of a
four-square garden. I'm in
the process of transforming an area of my backyard into a garden. I
like
the concept of the
four-square design and will be using raised beds due to my soil
conditions. I'm trying to get a
better visualization of the garden and am looking for any design ideas.
I've picked up a book on kitchen gardens and though it referenced the
four-square design, it didn't give me anything with
which to better visualize the layout, size and scope of the garden.
Does
anyone have experience with this sort of design or can point me to some
pictures or layouts?

Many Thanks
Dutch


Wow ... you've gotten some pretty good responses so far. I just want to
toss
in a viewpoint. Why not combine the concepts of a knot garden with the
foursquare in which each of the four larger quadrants are themselves
divided into smaller quadrants? The main paths could be both wider and
made
of a different material than the side paths. Moreover, if you wish to
avoid
the boxy look altogether you could align lumber vertically and connect it
with heavy-gauge wire instead of other lumber. You could also go with a
shingle overlap joint that would flex enough for gentle curves. Once in
place, anchor to posts set in the ground. For instance, a cluster of four
round containers could occupy each of the quadrants.

In my own garden (NOT a foursquare design) I dug 2' trenches the length
and
width of the intended bed, backfilled them with baled hay (left baled to
slow their decay)then placed 2'tall open ended boxes above them and used
the displaced soil, mixed with additional compost to back fill them. As
the
soil subsides, the top is kept level to slightly rounded with additional
applications of compost used as a mulch. This method of soil preparation,
while a lot of work initially, is giving me great results because my roots
have loose, rich soil a long ways down. Thanks to the baled hay, I
estimate
that it will be at least 10 years before my soil even starts to compact
and
a long time after that before compaction would be serious enough to begin
hindering roots. Ten foot tall trellises were part of the original box
construction and both my tomatoes and my beans topped the trellises last
year ... my beans by the first week in July ... my indeterminant tomatoes
in early September.

Bill

ecologicals wrote:

Soil is everything, so take your time to create a living soil in
each compartment.

Absolutely. The real key to the success / failure of a garden is its soil.
Get that right and the garden as a whole will be a success even if
individual elements miss the mark.

Not long ago my soil was little more than a sandpile. Now it is darned near
black and both holds and passes water (and nutrients) like the living
natural sponge that it is.

Soil matters.

Bill
--
I do not post my address to news groups.