in article , Noydb at
wrote on 6/27/03 5:48 PM:

What follows is a viewpoint. I recognize that there are opposing viewpoints
and accept that I am unlikely to convince those holding the opposing
viewpoint to see things my way. I have no desire to begin a "holy war" over
Miracle Grow or even the foundry waste that passes as fertilizer. However,
your point merits response.

Adding organic material is the act of someone thinking years in advance.
Adding chemical fertilizers is the act of someone thinking only of a single
season.

The problem is not the (one time) Miracle Grow addition. Given time, the
soil will overcome that. The problem is the reliance on it. This reliance
results in an organic material deficiency. This is the depletion of which I
spoke. People who add MG are sidestepping the biological processes that
occur in healthy soil. They aren't feeding the bacteria, earthworms and
other denizens of a healthy soil that each contribute to the health of the
whole. These people tend not to add significant quantities of
humus-producing organic materials. Their soluble nutrients leach out of the
soil / wash away in the rain instead of being fixed in the root zone by
biological factors and held there in the cellulose sponge of decaying
vegetative matter.

Miracle Grow works. So does the vast majority of bagged fertilizer applied
by the ton to millions of acres of farmland over the past 40-50 years. But
they all work best on a soil that is already healthy. Big point. If the
soil isn't essentially healthy, then the "wow" effect will be missing from
the fertilizer. If organic material is added to a soil, it will remain
healthy indefinitely. The reverse is also true.

The first year, a ton of fertilizer produces great results. The next year it
can take a ton and a quarter to produce the same results, then a ton and
three quarters but the results are not as good, and so on as the organic
materials in the soil become depleted. Miracle Grow is NOT 'complete'
because soil needs a lot more than fertilizer to bear healthy quantities of
healthy crops year after year.

Before starting my garden, I gathered leaves from curbs throughout my
neighborhood the previous fall. That meant that I had tons of 'browns' for
a compost pile but almost no 'greens' in the spring. So, finding a bunch of
MG in the garage (we had just bought the house) I added Miracle Grow to get
the needed nitrogen. It worked. However, by the time it got to my soil, it
was no longer MG.

I am not anti-MG. I am anti-reliance-on-MG. A quick shot of bagged
fertilizer on an organic soil will give a quick shot of increased yield.
But the fertilizer boost isn't repeatable indefinitely. The time has come
to pay the piper ... a lot of our cropland soils are depleted.

Hitting my garden with a cheap shot of fertilizer is, in the end, expensive
because it sidesteps the natural processes that serve to keep my soil
healthy. How healthy? I have canned 25 pints (not jelly jars) of strawberry
jam this year off just 100 sq ft of strawberry bed. The bed is just now
winding down. I haven't added anything except water, compost and a
sprinkling of greensand to that bed in two years.

I know it may be difficult to reconcile the concept of adding something with
the concept of depletion but I have attempted to outline how it occurs and
that, I think, answers your question. If I gave a convincing answer, great.
But I really don't expect to change anyone's mind.

I fully agree that addition of organic material (mulch, straw, compost) to
the soil is a good idea. The primary benefit is that gives the soil a
texture that allows it to be worked. A lot of that can be done with
cellulose, pearlite, vermiculite, gypsum, and other products that have
little plant nutrition. Good as Miracle-Grow is, it is not a complete
fertilizer.

As a suggested experiment, select a small piece of ground and use soil
conditioners that have no nutrition. Then try growing using a hydroponic
*complete* fertilizer. I think that you would be pleasantly surprised.

Bill

Noydb wrote in message ...

Snip

Adding organic material is the act of someone thinking years in advance.
Adding chemical fertilizers is the act of someone thinking only of a single
season.

I would like to add my own experience to this. I helped create and
tend a huge perennial garden which had the dryest, deadest soil I ever
saw! No living matter resided in it and only the weeds thrived. For
several years we added compost and nutrients with only minimal
improvements. Last fall, in desperation, we dug fallen leaves, crushed
egg shells and banana peels directly into a section of the soil. That
section now has lots of worms wiggling about (previously none) and the
new plants seem to be surviving for a change.

My point is only that it may not take years to build up the soil
organicly. Research is needed and planning too, but it can happen
within a year. We chose items which, by nature, break down easily for
quick results. We still add compost too, but I can guarantee that this
fall we will expand upon our efforts to do even more direct composting
in the soil.

jcm
Toronto, Ontario
Canadian zone 5b, don't know my U.S. zone equivilant.
Thanks to global warming it's bloody hot here though!

On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 20:48:27 -0400, Noydb
wrote:

Frogleg wrote:

Shoot -- can't follow the players without previous quoting. However,

Sometime, someone wrote:

Using Miracle Grow exclusively will deplete your soil. There is no need
to add fertilizers to a fully organic soil, although soil amendments may
be useful from time to time.

I fail to understand how the use of Miracle-Gro can "deplete" soil.
It's simply a soluable fertilizer. I've heard wicked tales of "salts"
being left behind after years of use, but if true, it's still not a
case of soil "depletion."


I wrote that.

What follows is a viewpoint. I recognize that there are opposing viewpoints
and accept that I am unlikely to convince those holding the opposing
viewpoint to see things my way. I have no desire to begin a "holy war" over
Miracle Grow or even the foundry waste that passes as fertilizer. However,
your point merits response.

snip quite relevent material

I agree with nearly all of what you said. I *adore* (and brew)
compost, and know that while Miracle-Gro may supply basic nutrients,
fertilizer is far from the be-all, end-all of growing plants, generous
soil, and a proper lifestyle. :-) My quarrel is with a "no chemical"
philosophy, and a generalized vilification of everything that comes in
a bottle, box, or plastic bag. Suppose I recommended acetic acid for
weed control: flags would go up; perhaps comments that "organic
methods are superior." Of course, acetic acid is vinegar, which is
often suggested as an "organic" alternative to "chemical poison"
weedkillers. I don't understand why there has to be a such a
confrontational attitude between The Organics and The Really Bad
People. We've got possters wondering if they're completely beyond the
pale for using a little Miracle-Gro solution on their houseplants! One
person suggested *anyone* could keep a bucket of manure tea around,
even in a high-rise apt. I beg to differ.

The title of this thread shows what I feel is the problem. Either/or.
One or the other. And I'm not really sure what each is. I love compost
and manure, and I'm going to mix up a little Miracle-Gro to feed my
porch plants this morning. I am very critical of the chemical
lawn-spray service engaged by a neighbor to artificially produce a
golf course appearance that costs *me* money. That is, I'm taxed for
chemical runnoff into the Bay, even when I don't spray, fertilize, or
even *water* my lawn. And when God wants my car washed, She'll make it
rain.

When I first began gardening, I used Sevin dust for insect control.
When I learned how damaging it was to beneficial (and pretty) insects,
I quit. In fact, I've found most pests can be either tolerated or
picked off/up and squished. I've had a lot of success with BT San
Diego, but is that a "chemical" or an "organic" control? I use bug
stuff (not Sevin) very sparingly on specific plants for specific
problems. I hand-spray Weed-B-Gon on individual dandelions and don't
feel like I'm ruining the planet.

I just think that an either/or viewpoint is not useful. Is it "OK" to
use Miracle-Gro? Sure. It's not a sin. Are there alternative
fertilizers? Sure, and many that will have side benefits of improving
soil tilth. Does fish emulsion ("organic", even when it comes in a
plastic bottle with a brand name -- few of us brew fish) do any more
than a chemical formulation? I don't think so. I note that it's also a
nitrogen-rich substance, so may not be suitable for promoting fruting
veg.

Instead of "chemical VS. organic", how 'bout "what substances cause
damage? Which are effective? What about cost?" I could easily go
around scolding people for using Sevin -- it kills bees and
butterflies and there are many safer alternative. *Irrigation*, f'r
heaven's sake, may cause buildup of salts and render land
unproductive. So is *water* a lethal chemical?

Oh, foof. I've gotten all puffed up and wordy. "Can't we all just get
along?"

On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 12:12:33 GMT, Frogleg
wrote:



I agree with nearly all of what you said. I *adore* (and brew)
compost, and know that while Miracle-Gro may supply basic nutrients,
fertilizer is far from the be-all, end-all of growing plants, generous
soil, and a proper lifestyle. :-) My quarrel is with a "no chemical"
philosophy, and a generalized vilification of everything that comes in
a bottle, box, or plastic bag. Suppose I recommended acetic acid for
weed control: flags would go up; perhaps comments that "organic
methods are superior." Of course, acetic acid is vinegar, which is
often suggested as an "organic" alternative to "chemical poison"
weedkillers. I don't understand why there has to be a such a
confrontational attitude between The Organics and The Really Bad
People. We've got possters wondering if they're completely beyond the
pale for using a little Miracle-Gro solution on their houseplants! One
person suggested *anyone* could keep a bucket of manure tea around,
even in a high-rise apt. I beg to differ.


I must have missed that post - it seems to me as if you're
tilting at windmills here. ?

For myself, I know what acetic acid is.

I've not seen any foolishly slavish adherence to organic
methods pushed on rec.gardens.edible. But maybe I've missed
something.

I certainly wouldn't recommend that a person keep a bucket
of manure tea in an apartment! Wow. That *is* silly.
Maybe that post was before I was reading r.g.e. ?

Pat

Frogleg wrote:
On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 20:48:27 -0400, Noydb
wrote:


Frogleg wrote:


Shoot -- can't follow the players without previous quoting. However,

Sometime, someone wrote:


Using Miracle Grow exclusively will deplete your soil. There is no need
to add fertilizers to a fully organic soil, although soil amendments may
be useful from time to time.

I fail to understand how the use of Miracle-Gro can "deplete" soil.
It's simply a soluable fertilizer. I've heard wicked tales of "salts"
being left behind after years of use, but if true, it's still not a
case of soil "depletion."


I wrote that.

What follows is a viewpoint. I recognize that there are opposing viewpoints
and accept that I am unlikely to convince those holding the opposing
viewpoint to see things my way. I have no desire to begin a "holy war" over
Miracle Grow or even the foundry waste that passes as fertilizer. However,
your point merits response.


snip quite relevent material

I agree with nearly all of what you said. I *adore* (and brew)
compost, and know that while Miracle-Gro may supply basic nutrients,
fertilizer is far from the be-all, end-all of growing plants, generous
soil, and a proper lifestyle. :-) My quarrel is with a "no chemical"
philosophy, and a generalized vilification of everything that comes in
a bottle, box, or plastic bag. Suppose I recommended acetic acid for
weed control: flags would go up; perhaps comments that "organic
methods are superior." Of course, acetic acid is vinegar, which is
often suggested as an "organic" alternative to "chemical poison"
weedkillers. I don't understand why there has to be a such a
confrontational attitude between The Organics and The Really Bad
People. We've got possters wondering if they're completely beyond the
pale for using a little Miracle-Gro solution on their houseplants! One
person suggested *anyone* could keep a bucket of manure tea around,
even in a high-rise apt. I beg to differ.

The title of this thread shows what I feel is the problem. Either/or.
One or the other. And I'm not really sure what each is. I love compost
and manure, and I'm going to mix up a little Miracle-Gro to feed my
porch plants this morning. I am very critical of the chemical
lawn-spray service engaged by a neighbor to artificially produce a
golf course appearance that costs *me* money. That is, I'm taxed for
chemical runnoff into the Bay, even when I don't spray, fertilize, or
even *water* my lawn. And when God wants my car washed, She'll make it
rain.

When I first began gardening, I used Sevin dust for insect control.
When I learned how damaging it was to beneficial (and pretty) insects,
I quit. In fact, I've found most pests can be either tolerated or
picked off/up and squished. I've had a lot of success with BT San
Diego, but is that a "chemical" or an "organic" control? I use bug
stuff (not Sevin) very sparingly on specific plants for specific
problems. I hand-spray Weed-B-Gon on individual dandelions and don't
feel like I'm ruining the planet.

I just think that an either/or viewpoint is not useful. Is it "OK" to
use Miracle-Gro? Sure. It's not a sin. Are there alternative
fertilizers? Sure, and many that will have side benefits of improving
soil tilth. Does fish emulsion ("organic", even when it comes in a
plastic bottle with a brand name -- few of us brew fish) do any more
than a chemical formulation? I don't think so. I note that it's also a
nitrogen-rich substance, so may not be suitable for promoting fruting
veg.

Instead of "chemical VS. organic", how 'bout "what substances cause
damage? Which are effective? What about cost?" I could easily go
around scolding people for using Sevin -- it kills bees and
butterflies and there are many safer alternative. *Irrigation*, f'r
heaven's sake, may cause buildup of salts and render land
unproductive. So is *water* a lethal chemical?

Oh, foof. I've gotten all puffed up and wordy. "Can't we all just get
along?"

I use occasional foliar applications of Miracle Grow as sort of a tonic for
my plants; most of my effort goes to building up the soil. I use Roundup
sparingly; mostly around the fenceline to my vegetable garden. A quart of
Roundup lasts me about 10 years. I spray the dandelions and thistles in my
lawn with a spray bottle using 2,4-d. To control creeping charlie, I've
found that pulling it up with a steel rake and by hand is more effective
and more satisfying than using chemicals.

I have an impressive pesticide collection in my basement, but I put up with
a *lot* of insect damage before I spray. Some years I don't spray anything
but the apple tree. If a plague of bugs decends on my garden, I get out
the diazanon or the cygon (or whatever) and spray according to the label
directions.

Using chemicals is not a big problem. Overuse of synthetic chemicals is a
problem, imho. Using chemicals instead of taking care of the underlying
health of your garden is a big problem. Insects seldom overwhelm healthy
plants; they gravitate towards stressed plants. Occasionally they attack
healthy happy plants, and I'm ready for them with my sprayer. g

Two days ago I came home and smelled 2,4-d, or some similar amine herbicide
-- there was a pickup truck with a 500 gallon(?) tank on the back and spray
equipment parked in from of a house halfway down the block. God only knows
what all was in that tank. That's scary. The truck had a magnetic sign on
the door, and it was not Chem-lawn or any recognizible lawn service
company. I hope the trees in the neighborhood are OK; if I could smell the
herbicide from 4 houses away, I'm sure the bushes and trees could smell it.

Best regards,
Bob

On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 08:18:43 -0400, Pat Meadows
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 12:12:33 GMT, Frogleg
wrote:

I agree with nearly all of what you said. I *adore* (and brew)
compost, and know that while Miracle-Gro may supply basic nutrients,
fertilizer is far from the be-all, end-all of growing plants, generous
soil, and a proper lifestyle. :-) My quarrel is with a "no chemical"
philosophy, and a generalized vilification of everything that comes in
a bottle, box, or plastic bag. Suppose I recommended acetic acid for
weed control: flags would go up; perhaps comments that "organic
methods are superior." Of course, acetic acid is vinegar, which is
often suggested as an "organic" alternative to "chemical poison"
weedkillers. I don't understand why there has to be a such a
confrontational attitude between The Organics and The Really Bad
People. We've got possters wondering if they're completely beyond the
pale for using a little Miracle-Gro solution on their houseplants! One
person suggested *anyone* could keep a bucket of manure tea around,
even in a high-rise apt. I beg to differ.


I must have missed that post - it seems to me as if you're
tilting at windmills here. ?

For myself, I know what acetic acid is.

I've not seen any foolishly slavish adherence to organic
methods pushed on rec.gardens.edible. But maybe I've missed
something.

I certainly wouldn't recommend that a person keep a bucket
of manure tea in an apartment! Wow. That *is* silly.
Maybe that post was before I was reading r.g.e. ?

The "manure tea in any situation" was from Red Suspenders some time
ago, who seems to have stopped posting. You surely have seen the posts
that immediately leap on any use of brand name fertilizer,
weed-killer, or bug deterent as (almost) the equivalent of setting off
back yard atom bombs.

You haven't seen "any foolishly slavish adherence to organic methods
pushed..."? I certainly didn't call them "foolish." I merely said
there seems to be an adversarial relationship between those who favor
"all organic" methods, and those (incl. self) who don't feel using a
little Miracle-Gro is Satan's work.

The title of this thread shows what I feel is the problem. Either/or.
One or the other. And I'm not really sure what each is. I love compost
and manure, and I'm going to mix up a little Miracle-Gro to feed my
porch plants this morning.

I think you made a good point. I decided to use Miracle Gro this season and
start a compost pile for next season. Every years I'll work on the soil and
when I feel it is good enough, I'll go entirely organic. It may take 2 or 3
years but slow and steady wins the race.

I didn't want to risk unhealthy plants this year since I worked so hard
getting them in. Being a new home owner I finally had the chance to have a
garden, so this year I got the soil that was there.