On Mon, 31 May 2004 05:59:48 -0500, (Pat
Kiewicz) wrote:

Don B said:

This is my second year working on my little garden (4x8), and I still have
some seeds from last year. My question is should I plant using the old
seeds, or purchase new ones?

Parsnip seeds absolutely should be fresh. Onion seeds are much better fresh.
Most other seeds are good for at least two years. Very old seed will have a lower
germination rate and sometimes the seedlings are weak and puny.

LONGEVITY OF VEGETABLE SEED (from an old 4-H pamphlet)

snip

Germination rates *do* decline over time, but I don't believe I've
ever had old seeds produce inferior plants if they *did* germinate.
And the only old seed I've had zero germination with is grass. Lawn
grass, that is. :-) I must say I've never tried onion from seed or
parsnip in any way, shape, or form.

If there's ever an rge FAQ, the question of 'old' seeds should be
somewhere near the top of the list.

BTW, I just planted some fenugreek seeds that are probably 10 yrs old,
and brought from a commercial spice co. and lo, I have sprouts!

P.S. As far as what zone I am in...I haven't a clue. I'm in Ottawa, Ont
Canada.

You'll find zones for Canada he
http://makeashorterlink.com/?I57625F68
or, for Ottawa:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?D2A651F68

Looks like you're 5a
Ross,
Ontario, Canada.
New AgCanada Zone 5b
43º19' North
80º16' West

Tkx Ross...I will take a look at it.
One question is how does it help knowing my zone...still a newbie on
gardening.

On Sun, 30 May 2004 11:48:46 GMT, "Don B" wrote:

Hello everyone
This is my second year working on my little garden (4x8), and I still have
some seeds from last year. My question is should I plant using the old
seeds, or purchase new ones?

The remaining seeds were sealed up, and were kept in a dry place in the
basement.

Most seed will last from year to year as long as they don't get too
hot, or worse, humid. Exceptions for *me* are parsnips and lettuce, I
never get good germination after the year they're sold for. Others
say they do, but I'd buy new lettuce if you need it.

Le Jardin du Gourmet sells sample seed packets for 35 cents a packet,
and that's an excellent way to try things, or if you have a small
garden.

They have a web presences at:
http://www.artisticgardens.com/herb_seedsplants.htm

It's a little late for some things, but there are late season lettuce,
and you can start a few here and there, plus there are seeds for herbs
like thyme, basils, marjoram..etc etc etc.

I don't know where you are though, so what the weather there is like,
I don't know.

Enjoy your garden!!

Janice

Don B wrote:
Hello everyone
This is my second year working on my little garden (4x8), and I still have
some seeds from last year. My question is should I plant using the old
seeds, or purchase new ones?

The remaining seeds were sealed up, and were kept in a dry place in the
basement.



I don't know about herbs but as for vegetables only onions (and chives)
will probably not germinate as they have a one year life. Corn seed
only lasts for two years. Everything else should be okay to plant.

Barb

Frogleg said:

Germination rates *do* decline over time, but I don't believe I've
ever had old seeds produce inferior plants if they *did* germinate.
And the only old seed I've had zero germination with is grass. Lawn
grass, that is. :-) I must say I've never tried onion from seed or
parsnip in any way, shape, or form.

I've noticed, particularly with eggplant seeds and to some extent with
tomatoes, that old seed that do germinate tend to be weaker, in the sense
that even though the do sprout they seem to be less able to pull themselves
free of the seed coat. Sort of like it was all they could do to start the process.

--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(attributed to Don Marti)

Most appropo, this past Saturday hubby and I cleaned out a part of our garage
that had sat untouched since we moved in 1998. (We use the garage for storage,
not cars)

In among things that I had been trying to find since 1998 [g], was a box of
gardening stuff. Mostly old pots, but tucked into one of the pots was the cache
of seed packets that used to be in my kitchen cabinet in my old apartment. Some
of these had "packed for" dates going back to 1984. Most were in the late
1980's to 1996. Supposing I had nothing to lose, I took some recycled 4-cells,
filled them with starter mix and planted some vintage 1984 pansies, 1992
lettuce, 1994 New Yorker tomatoes, and other odds and ends. I sprinkled more
seeds than I would normally use, since I was sure I probably would not get much
germination.

I check them this morning, and the pansies and the lettuce have begun to
germinate. Nothing else so far, but, honestly, I didn't expect ANYTHING. All
the starter paks were pretty wet, since they were outside in the rain, and the
weather has also been cool. And FWIW, the new cucumbers and snapdragons I
planted at the same time haven't done anything yet.

When it comes to seeds, stuff that is usually high in germination and easy to
start, I will use until the packet is gone. Stuff that is hard to germinate, I
will toss and replace after two seasons or less. Obviously, twenty-year-old
seeds are not my norm for my gardening habits, but I do have to laugh at the
unexpected surprise.
That, and clean out the garage more often....[g]


-=epm=-

In matters of truth and justice,
there is no difference between large and small problems,
for issues concerning the treatment of people are all the same.
- Albert Einstein

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 00:24:12 GMT, "Don B" wrote:


P.S. As far as what zone I am in...I haven't a clue. I'm in Ottawa, Ont
Canada.

You'll find zones for Canada he
http://makeashorterlink.com/?I57625F68
or, for Ottawa:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?D2A651F68

One question is how does it help knowing my zone...still a newbie on
gardening.

The 'zones' are averages of minimum temperatures for different areas.
They are a rough measure of which plants will probably survive the
winter. You will often see "X is hardy to zone 5" which means it's
usually too cold in zone 4 for that plant.

In article ,
says...
I don't know about herbs but as for vegetables only onions (and chives)
will probably not germinate as they have a one year life.

I just planted scallions from last years seed. They're coming
up fine.

And around here (zone 5) chives are a perennial - couldn't kill
them if I tried.


--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

In article s.com, "Don B" wrote:
Hello everyone
This is my second year working on my little garden (4x8), and I still have
some seeds from last year. My question is should I plant using the old
seeds, or purchase new ones?

The remaining seeds were sealed up, and were kept in a dry place in the
basement.

Speaking from experience: so long as they have been kept dry, and
haven't collected any of the nasty little borers that eat their
innards, most seeds keep at least a couple years, and some keep for 10
years or more. I once saw a chart that indicated there is an average
10-20% die-off rate per year of storage for most veggie seeds, but if
you're concerned, just plant a few extras to make up for what don't
germinate.

I've had gazinnia and marigold seeds that were a good 10 to 12 years
old achieve 100% germination. I don't think we ever had this-year's
seed in my grandmother's garden -- she'd buy last-year's discounted
seeds, and as I recall (being the head garden labourer at the time
the germination rate was indeed about 80%.

~REZ~

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 05:20:25 -0500, (Pat
Kiewicz) wrote:

Frogleg said:

Germination rates *do* decline over time, but I don't believe I've
ever had old seeds produce inferior plants if they *did* germinate.
And the only old seed I've had zero germination with is grass. Lawn
grass, that is. :-) I must say I've never tried onion from seed or
parsnip in any way, shape, or form.

I've noticed, particularly with eggplant seeds and to some extent with
tomatoes, that old seed that do germinate tend to be weaker, in the sense
that even though the do sprout they seem to be less able to pull themselves
free of the seed coat. Sort of like it was all they could do to start the process.

I've seen that with brassicas.. cabbage, broccoli, they'll come up,
with a ball on the end of the stem.. the seed coat over the seed
leaves.. too tired to spell it. And they don't get any further when
they're like that.

I've grown some tomatoes from seed I bought in 1976.... in 1990. They
were pear tomatoes though. LOL Didn't want to grow many of those,
kind of mealy inside. blech.

Janice

On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 02:10:39 GMT, (Rez)
wrote:

In article s.com, "Don B" wrote:
Hello everyone
This is my second year working on my little garden (4x8), and I still have
some seeds from last year. My question is should I plant using the old
seeds, or purchase new ones?

The remaining seeds were sealed up, and were kept in a dry place in the
basement.

Speaking from experience: so long as they have been kept dry, and
haven't collected any of the nasty little borers that eat their
innards, most seeds keep at least a couple years, and some keep for 10
years or more. I once saw a chart that indicated there is an average
10-20% die-off rate per year of storage for most veggie seeds, but if
you're concerned, just plant a few extras to make up for what don't
germinate.

I've had gazinnia and marigold seeds that were a good 10 to 12 years
old achieve 100% germination. I don't think we ever had this-year's
seed in my grandmother's garden -- she'd buy last-year's discounted
seeds, and as I recall (being the head garden labourer at the time
the germination rate was indeed about 80%.

~REZ~

_Such_ an interesting thread, thank you! I could have sworn I saw a
program on the television documentary re Egypt re the seeds, that is
what is so odd. I'm sure that even if things germinated, there
wouldn't have been an extremely high success rate, but it always
fascinated me. I'll have to look into this further, as it's something
that has been with me for so long and I always believed it to be true,
that now I want to know for sure.

But also really neat thread re germinating. The garage experiment
sounds neat, too! Hope that the seeds come up nice!

p.s., I'm also concerned about one thing. _If_ older seeds from a
long time ago do germinate now yet new seeds don't, one has to wonder
about modern growing practices, too! Mustn't forget that our
ancestors did things the right way - more in accordance with nature's
laws, esp. before the industrial revolution! They may not have had
the "science" of this, as we supposedly do, but they had no choice.
They grew organically, etc. g

But also really neat thread re germinating. The garage experiment
sounds neat, too! Hope that the seeds come up nice!

Well, so far, the zinnias, pansies and one or two tomatoes have germinated. I
don't know what the percentage is, just that some of it did. Nothing on the
marigolds, impatiens, basil or the rest, but they usually take a few more days
anyway. Given that my first impulse was to toss them all out, I'm ahead of
things I think!


-=epm=-

In matters of truth and justice,
there is no difference between large and small problems,
for issues concerning the treatment of people are all the same.
- Albert Einstein

In article , fitwell wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 02:10:39 GMT, (Rez)
wrote:
_Such_ an interesting thread, thank you! I could have sworn I saw a
program on the television documentary re Egypt re the seeds, that is
what is so odd. I'm sure that even if things germinated, there
wouldn't have been an extremely high success rate, but it always
fascinated me. I'll have to look into this further, as it's something
that has been with me for so long and I always believed it to be true,
that now I want to know for sure.

Oh, you mean about sprouting wheat that was found in Egyptian
monuments? I don't know how legit that claim was, but I'd expect
dry wheat kernels to keep for a couple decades under ordinary
conditions.

p.s., I'm also concerned about one thing. _If_ older seeds from a
long time ago do germinate now yet new seeds don't, one has to wonder
about modern growing practices, too! Mustn't forget that our

Seeds found in an Egyptian pyramid, sealed inside some artifact, would
have the benefit of being kept absolutely dry and free of destructive
organisms (mold, borer beetles, etc.) Modern grain, kept under similar
conditions, should have an equally long live-storage time. But most of
us don't live in a desert and store seeds in airtight containers.

ancestors did things the right way - more in accordance with nature's
laws, esp. before the industrial revolution! They may not have had
the "science" of this, as we supposedly do, but they had no choice.
They grew organically, etc. g

Well, our ancestors also did a lot of stupid destructive things, like
slash and burn agriculture, and farming out the land then moving on to
somewhere that hadn't been sucked dry of nutrients, and letting sheep
and goats destroy pasture and thus soil (the middle east wasn't a
desert until a couple thousand years ago, you know -- it got that way
from wandering tribes and their goats. Same with central Wyoming,
which looked a lot better before being overgrazed by sheep.) Modern
farming is actually a lot kinder to the soil, if only because in most
farming countries, there is no longer any new land to exploit, so
you've got to keep what you have productive, and that means not
overfarming it down to dust.

Re pastu cattle cut the grass off fairly high, leaving a good
growthy portion. Sheep graze it right down to the ground, stressing
it all to hell. Goats pull it up roots and all. Once you destroy the
ground cover that way, erosion sets in, and in a matter of a decade or
less, a green lush pastureland with good soil can be converted to
stony desert.

~REZ~

In article , (EvelynMcH) wrote:
But also really neat thread re germinating. The garage experiment
sounds neat, too! Hope that the seeds come up nice!

Well, so far, the zinnias, pansies and one or two tomatoes have germinated. I
don't know what the percentage is, just that some of it did. Nothing on the
marigolds, impatiens, basil or the rest, but they usually take a few more days
anyway. Given that my first impulse was to toss them all out, I'm ahead of
things I think!

I posted about this before, but if I repeat myself, very well, I
repeat myself

I'd saved a bunch of seeds from a special gazinnia, but it was over 10
years before I had a place to plant them. And from the first attempt
-- NONE came up. So the next year, figuring they were mostly dead, I
planted all the rest -- and HUNDREDS came up (far as I could tell,
100%).

I've had something similar happen with my long-stored marigold seeds
-- one year I got hardly any coming up; the next year, from the same
seed stash, I got a bloody forest of marigolds.

So now I don't despair; sometimes stuff just doesn't sprout, but that
doesn't *necessarily* mean the seed is dead.

~REZ~

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 01:31:34 GMT, fitwell
wrote:

p.s., I'm also concerned about one thing. _If_ older seeds from a
long time ago do germinate now yet new seeds don't, one has to wonder
about modern growing practices, too!

Stories of wheat sprouting from seeds found in ancient Egyptian tombs
seems to be mostly apocryphal, 'though there is good evidence for a
few sprouting seeds of 100 to possibly 1000 years old.

http://www.kew.org/msbp/msbfaq/msb_a12.html

Mustn't forget that our
ancestors did things the right way - more in accordance with nature's
laws, esp. before the industrial revolution! They may not have had
the "science" of this, as we supposedly do, but they had no choice.
They grew organically, etc. g

And the average lifespan was 47 years. :-)