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Old 21-01-2006, 12:12 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Steve Michie
 
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Default (Koi-lo) - more vortex DE filter discussion...

Hey Koi-lo - u got any more suggestions for me ??

I pulled the D1 apart today - and was disappointed to NOT find any holes or
split seams in the bag.

The plastic neck was still fully inserted into the motor/pump recess.

The DE was filthy - all shades of bright green... as u would expect - so it
seems to be doing its job - but just not to the point of making my water
CRYSTAL clear... Hmm....

Has anyone checked the flow rate of the D1 - ?

I've got a feeling mine is way below specification (even with a fresh charge
of powder) - perhaps its due to the length of my tubing & the height
respective to my tank ??

Inlet & outlet tubing - 4 foot long each.
Pump inlet/outlet sits 3 foot below top of tank

I'm about to do a 50% water change - and will then try a 3rd charge in the
DE filter - maybe my water is just so filthy that 2 charges wasnt enough to
get it crystal clear ? (although I would think the flow would all but stop
thru the filter rather than just miss all the super fine particles ?)

Cheers.



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Old 21-01-2006, 12:42 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Koi-lo
 
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Default (Koi-lo) - more vortex DE filter discussion...


"Steve Michie" wrote in message
...
Hey Koi-lo - u got any more suggestions for me ??

I pulled the D1 apart today - and was disappointed to NOT find any holes
or split seams in the bag.

The plastic neck was still fully inserted into the motor/pump recess.

The DE was filthy - all shades of bright green... as u would expect - so
it seems to be doing its job - but just not to the point of making my
water CRYSTAL clear... Hmm....


I have never heard of this filter failing before. Have you considered
something drastic and a total redoing of this tank? Do you have some kind
of sand or soil under the surface? If the DE hasn't worked by now that's
the route I would take. If a DE filter can't get what's floating in your
tank - nothing will.

Has anyone checked the flow rate of the D1 - ?


How would anyone do that?

I've got a feeling mine is way below specification (even with a fresh
charge of powder) - perhaps its due to the length of my tubing & the
height respective to my tank ??


Mine sits on the floor and the tank stands are regulation height. The hoses
are the hoses that came with the filter and are aprox 4' long.

Inlet & outlet tubing - 4 foot long each.
Pump inlet/outlet sits 3 foot below top of tank


I don't understand this - 3' below top of tank? ???? The intake strainer
of mine is about 10" below the water surface and the outflow returns the
water about 2" below the tank's rim. The filter is sitting on the floor.

I'm about to do a 50% water change - and will then try a 3rd charge in the
DE filter - maybe my water is just so filthy that 2 charges wasnt enough
to get it crystal clear ?


I never heard of this filter failing. Something is wrong somewhere. See
above re' sand or soil substrata. All I can suggest is to either do many
major water changes or simply rip this tank down and start again. Then when
the DE gets discolored CHANGE IT. Don't let it run until the flow slows
down. DE filters are fine enough to catch just about everything in the
water so I am curious about this cloud it can't remove and what's causing
it.

(although I would think the flow would all but stop
thru the filter rather than just miss all the super fine particles ?)


What kind of substrate are you using? Are you using mains or well water?
Is THAT crystal clear from your tap?
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o




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Old 21-01-2006, 01:05 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Steve Michie
 
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Default (Koi-lo) - more vortex DE filter discussion...


"Koi-lo" wrote in message
...

Do you have some kind of sand or soil under the surface?


Nope - no sand or soil - regulation aquarium pebbles - approx 3mm diameter.

Has anyone checked the flow rate of the D1 - ?


How would anyone do that?


measuring the volume in a given period of time (outlet flow into a bucket) -
then convert to gallons per hour or whatever...
i did it without too much trouble on my eheim (suspected it was low - and it
was - 50% of rated) but it will be more difficult to measure the vortex
flow - esp. without an extra pair of hands to help...

Mine sits on the floor and the tank stands are regulation height. The
hoses are the hoses that came with the filter and are aprox 4' long.


Hmm. ok - no difference there then...

Inlet & outlet tubing - 4 foot long each.
Pump inlet/outlet sits 3 foot below top of tank


I don't understand this - 3' below top of tank? ????


yeah, from where the pump connects to the hose - ie. the base of the vortex
jar is 4 foot below the tank (sitting on the floor) and the pump inlet &
outlet is 1 foot higher. Therefore 3 foot below the top of the tank. (pump
is pushing thru a 3 foot head of water)

My intake & return *strainers* are both only about 2" below the
waterline.... maybe I should lengthen the intake strainer leg ? worth a
try....


Then when the DE gets discolored CHANGE IT.


Hmmm ok.

Don't let it run until the flow slows down.


Thats where it doesnt make sense to me either - the flow doesnt *seem* to
drop off as the DE gets discoloured... strange.

Are you using mains or well water?


mains.

Is THAT crystal clear from your tap?


well, I would assume so because my fathers tank (next suburb - same water
supply) is SUPER CRYSTAL clear - he has got a cheap ass tiny HOT filter -
drives me nuts that his tank with minimal care & attention and super
low-tech filtration gets to a super clear state - arghhh !!!! hehehehe
:-D

Thanx Mate !


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Old 21-01-2006, 01:15 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Daniel Morrow
 
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Default (Koi-lo) - more vortex DE filter discussion...

Mid posted.
Steve Michie wrote:
Hey Koi-lo - u got any more suggestions for me ??

I pulled the D1 apart today - and was disappointed to NOT find any
holes or split seams in the bag.

The plastic neck was still fully inserted into the motor/pump recess.

The DE was filthy - all shades of bright green... as u would expect
- so it seems to be doing its job - but just not to the point of
making my water CRYSTAL clear... Hmm....

Has anyone checked the flow rate of the D1 - ?


The flow rate of the d1 is 150 gallons per hour and is supposedly suitable
for aquariums up to 55 gallons.



I've got a feeling mine is way below specification (even with a fresh
charge of powder) - perhaps its due to the length of my tubing & the
height respective to my tank ??


All pumps have a head height limit as far as I know, but your details listed
below should be perfectly reasonable in my opinion. If the d1 can't do what
you say below it is a rip off I hate to say - especially after I
rediscovered my vortex xl which I am very happy with and still hope it's
manufacturer does good business-whys.



Inlet & outlet tubing - 4 foot long each.
Pump inlet/outlet sits 3 foot below top of tank

I'm about to do a 50% water change - and will then try a 3rd charge
in the DE filter - maybe my water is just so filthy that 2 charges
wasnt enough to get it crystal clear ? (although I would think the
flow would all but stop thru the filter rather than just miss all the
super fine particles ?)


In my opinion you are right - it should only stop the flow through the
filter if your aquarium really was so filthy - the filter (d1) you use
should not have ANY bypass and should never let anything through hat is too
big. Good luck and later!



Cheers.



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Old 21-01-2006, 04:20 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Koi-lo
 
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Default (Koi-lo) - more vortex DE filter discussion...


"Steve Michie" wrote in message
...

"Koi-lo" wrote in message
Inlet & outlet tubing - 4 foot long each.
Pump inlet/outlet sits 3 foot below top of tank


I don't understand this - 3' below top of tank? ????


yeah, from where the pump connects to the hose - ie. the base of the
vortex jar is 4 foot below the tank (sitting on the floor) and the pump
inlet & outlet is 1 foot higher. Therefore 3 foot below the top of the
tank. (pump is pushing thru a 3 foot head of water)


But it's also getting water pressure coming DOWN from the tank. That
shouldn't slow the flow. If you feel it matters sit the filter on a chair
or small table (cheap plastic ones at any Garden Center).

My intake & return *strainers* are both only about 2" below the
waterline.... maybe I should lengthen the intake strainer leg ? worth a
try....


I can't see that that would matter. Mine came with the one on it now - I
just measured it, it's 10" long minus the strainer on the bottom, about 2"
long. I bought this one over 10 years ago. My husband and I can't remember
when exactly...... The only reasons I can see for a DE filter to fail has
been ruled out; not enough powder, not changed often enough, clay in the
water, hole in the bag etc.

Then when the DE gets discolored CHANGE IT.


Hmmm ok.

Don't let it run until the flow slows down.


Thats where it doesnt make sense to me either - the flow doesnt *seem* to
drop off as the DE gets discoloured... strange.


That sounds strange to me as well. As the bag on mine darkens with crud the
flow does indeed slow down.

Are you using mains or well water?


mains.

Is THAT crystal clear from your tap?


well, I would assume so because my fathers tank (next suburb - same water
supply) is SUPER CRYSTAL clear - he has got a cheap ass tiny HOT filter -
drives me nuts that his tank with minimal care & attention and super
low-tech filtration gets to a super clear state - arghhh !!!! hehehehe
:-D


OK, I think it's time you called the person or place where you bought this
DE filter and ask what they think. The other thing that I would do is a few
massive water changes. If that doesn't get rid of the "cloud" in the water
then REDO the who she-bang and start again. It will be worth the effort to
get gin-clear water.

The only thing I can think of that "might" be fine enough to get through a
good coating of DE would be a extremely fine "clay" soil, something you
don't have in this tank.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o





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Old 21-01-2006, 05:32 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Richard Sexton
 
Posts: n/a
Default (Koi-lo) - more vortex DE filter discussion...

I'm about to do a 50% water change - and will then try a 3rd charge in the
DE filter - maybe my water is just so filthy that 2 charges wasnt enough to
get it crystal clear ? (although I would think the flow would all but stop
thru the filter rather than just miss all the super fine particles ?)



My notes; I've seen this too.

http://aquaria.net/articles/filter/diatom/
http://aquaria.net/articles/filter/vortex/



--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
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Old 21-01-2006, 05:51 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Koi-lo
 
Posts: n/a
Default (Koi-lo) - more vortex DE filter discussion...


"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
I'm about to do a 50% water change - and will then try a 3rd charge in
the
DE filter - maybe my water is just so filthy that 2 charges wasnt enough
to
get it crystal clear ? (although I would think the flow would all but stop
thru the filter rather than just miss all the super fine particles ?)



My notes; I've seen this too.

http://aquaria.net/articles/filter/diatom/
http://aquaria.net/articles/filter/vortex/

========================================
It takes my D1 no longer than 2 hours to make my 55s crystal clear with no
more than 1/2 cup to 3/4s cup (I'm not real accurate about measuring it) of
DE in the jar. I wonder if the OP is making sure the whole bag has a good
coating and there's no areas where water is bypassing the DE.
This is when the water is a mess from me using the gravel vac and then
stirring the gravel by hand to get as much mulm into the water column as
possible. And believe me with goldfish the gravel is still mucky even
after a vacc'ing. While the tank is still 1/2 empty, holding only around
25g of water, I turn the D1 on. Then I slowly start to refill the tank a
bucket at a time. By the time I move on to the next tank and have it
vacuumed and 1/2 empty the 1st tank is near crystal clear.
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o



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Old 21-01-2006, 06:10 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Daniel Morrow
 
Posts: n/a
Default (Koi-lo) - more vortex DE filter discussion...

Bottom posted.
Richard Sexton wrote:
I'm about to do a 50% water change - and will then try a 3rd charge
in the DE filter - maybe my water is just so filthy that 2 charges
wasnt enough to get it crystal clear ? (although I would think the
flow would all but stop thru the filter rather than just miss all
the super fine particles ?)



My notes; I've seen this too.

http://aquaria.net/articles/filter/diatom/
http://aquaria.net/articles/filter/vortex/


Thanks for the notes - I also found them to be educational - it will be
interesting to see if the original poster does too. Good luck and later!


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Old 21-01-2006, 07:40 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Steve Michie
 
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Default (Koi-lo) - more vortex DE filter discussion...


"Daniel Morrow" wrote in message
...

Thanks for the notes - I also found them to be educational - it will be
interesting to see if the original poster does too. Good luck and later!



Well, I'm very glad to report that the OP has indeed finally had some
success.... :-D

My water is clear as a bell now - Thanx to a 3rd charge of DE powder...

only took about 2 - 3 hours to get it sparkling with the 3rd charge....

I'm still at a loss to explain why the 1st & 2nd charges (both filtering for
1 week each) didnt *fully* clear the water or clog the outlet flow to a
trickle... but all is well that ends well...

The 1st & 2nd charges did help ALOT, but the 3rd charge finally did the
'polishing' I was looking for.
Thanx all for ur input.


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Old 21-01-2006, 08:09 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Koi-lo
 
Posts: n/a
Default (Koi-lo) - more vortex DE filter discussion...


"Steve Michie" wrote in message
...

Well, I'm very glad to report that the OP has indeed finally had some
success.... :-D

My water is clear as a bell now - Thanx to a 3rd charge of DE powder...

only took about 2 - 3 hours to get it sparkling with the 3rd charge....

I'm still at a loss to explain why the 1st & 2nd charges (both filtering
for 1 week each) didnt *fully* clear the water or clog the outlet flow to
a trickle... but all is well that ends well...


I suspect the bag may not have had a complete coating of powder. The next
time you run this filter shake the bottle and make sure you SEE that the bag
is completely coated everywhere. If you just dump the power in the bottom
and then let the water run in and turn it on, it may not be coating the bag
completely. If not, the water will channel and take the path of least
resistance.

The 1st & 2nd charges did help ALOT, but the 3rd charge finally did the
'polishing' I was looking for.
Thanx all for ur input.


I'm glad you got you tank clear. ;-)
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o






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Old 21-01-2006, 10:19 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Steve Michie
 
Posts: n/a
Default (Koi-lo) - more vortex DE filter discussion...


"Koi-lo" wrote in message
...

If you just dump the power in the bottom and then let the water run in
and turn it on, it may not be coating the bag completely.


A fair point - but the method I used to charge was by adding the powder to a
jug immersed in the tank (alternate method in the manual) and letting the
vortex suck in the mixture - so the coating should have been nice & even ??

Maybe this episode still belongs in the x-files... ;-)

P.S. I have removed the vortex and am hoping that my cloud algae doesnt
return anytime soon. (touch wood)

I'll post a sob story if it does - chuckle

Thanx again all.
Cheers.
Stevo


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Old 21-01-2006, 03:23 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Richard Sexton
 
Posts: n/a
Default (Koi-lo) - more vortex DE filter discussion...

In article ,
Steve Michie wrote:

"Daniel Morrow" wrote in message
...

Thanks for the notes - I also found them to be educational - it will be
interesting to see if the original poster does too. Good luck and later!



Well, I'm very glad to report that the OP has indeed finally had some
success.... :-D

My water is clear as a bell now - Thanx to a 3rd charge of DE powder...

only took about 2 - 3 hours to get it sparkling with the 3rd charge....

I'm still at a loss to explain why the 1st & 2nd charges (both filtering for
1 week each) didnt *fully* clear the water or clog the outlet flow to a
trickle... but all is well that ends well...


I think what hapens when it doesn't clea the water quickly - like
under an hour and no matter what you do it won't go clear - and yes
I've left it for 24 hours and it gets no clearer - I think what happens
in this case is there is dissolved gas in the (usually new tapwater?)
that you charge the diatom with. What you add diatom powder and let it run
some of the gas comes out of solution in the filter pleats. Diatom powder
can't cover tha hole and eventually the bubble dissolves back into
solution leaving a hole in the powder coating.

I stumbled by accident on truning the filter off, letting all the
powder start to settle then turning it back on. This seems to dislodge
all the bubbles. What works too is to use aquarium, not fresh tap water
when charging the filter. it contains less dissolved gasas.

So, this does seem to help avoid the "cloudies" when no matter what you
do you seem to have a file layer of diatom powder in your tank. Keep in
mind though you should NEVER turn the filter off and on or try to charge
it in the tank itself. use a 2 gal tank or a large one gallon jar. Or
a bucket.

Getting the recharge valves helps too, but you can get by with just a
bucket. Recharging it is everything.

Once the powder it set up right it should make any tank clean in about
an hour. Leave it on for 24 hours and it's photographic quality clear.
For about half an hour... For tanks bigger than 30 gals you probbaly need
an XL. The D1 just takes too long above that size. It'll work to be sure
but how much time (or how many tanks) ya got?

The carbon these guys sell is awsome. Once the water is clear take the filter
out recharge it, then add 4 T carbon powder. Give it an hour and it will
make the water absolutely colorless taking out any yellow or green tinge.

You have to use finely powdered carbon here, not granulater carbon, but
it's easy to make. Just take any high quality (ie, coconut) carbon and
put it in a coffee grinder. Grind until it's a fine powder. Use 4T
per D1 after charging with datom powder. Now grind a couple of loeads
of beans to flush the carbon out of the grinder. The carbon actually cleans
it - that's your story and you're sticking to it. Keep excess powder in
a small tightly sealed jar.

My diatom filter is the singlemost usefull piece of fish gear I have.
Cold dead fingers etc...


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
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Old 21-01-2006, 04:58 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Koi-lo
 
Posts: n/a
Default (Koi-lo) - more vortex DE filter discussion...


"Steve Michie" wrote in message
...

"Koi-lo" wrote in message
...

If you just dump the power in the bottom and then let the water run in
and turn it on, it may not be coating the bag completely.


A fair point - but the method I used to charge was by adding the powder to
a jug immersed in the tank (alternate method in the manual) and letting
the vortex suck in the mixture - so the coating should have been nice &
even ??

Maybe this episode still belongs in the x-files... ;-)

P.S. I have removed the vortex and am hoping that my cloud algae doesnt
return anytime soon. (touch wood)

I'll post a sob story if it does - chuckle

=======================
OK,... sounds good to me. ;-) We'll be here to help if we can........
--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums: http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o



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Old 21-01-2006, 05:04 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Koi-lo
 
Posts: n/a
Default (Koi-lo) - more vortex DE filter discussion...


"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
My diatom filter is the singlemost usefull piece of fish gear I have.
Cold dead fingers etc...

============================
Amen! I couldn't live without mine. Let me add that my D1 clears a real
stirred up 55g goldfish tank in less than 2 hours.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
Aquariums:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastada...ium-Page4.html
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o



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Old 23-01-2006, 05:30 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants
Steve Michie
 
Posts: n/a
Default (Koi-lo) - more vortex DE filter discussion...


"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
I think what happens
in this case is there is dissolved gas in the (usually new tapwater?)
that you charge the diatom with. What you add diatom powder and let it run
some of the gas comes out of solution in the filter pleats. Diatom powder
can't cover tha hole and eventually the bubble dissolves back into
solution leaving a hole in the powder coating.


a very possible and likely explanation - I'm happy to bust the x-file with
that !!! :-)

I stumbled by accident on truning the filter off, letting all the
powder start to settle then turning it back on. This seems to dislodge
all the bubbles. What works too is to use aquarium, not fresh tap water
when charging the filter. it contains less dissolved gasas.


yep - i have only ever charged with aquarium water - but my co2 injection
prolly causes enough gas to be dissolved into solution to give the above
effect - and now that I think of it - I just might have had my gas off for
at least a few days prior to my 3rd charge - (was getting desperate - I
thought no fertilizer & no co2 might help algae to die off) - no co2
dissolved in solution = uniform coating of DE powder on bag - your theory is
seeming more & more probable by the minute !! ;-D


So, this does seem to help avoid the "cloudies" when no matter what you
do you seem to have a file layer of diatom powder in your tank. Keep in
mind though you should NEVER turn the filter off and on or try to charge
it in the tank itself. use a one gallon jar.


???
Never turn the filter off ??
you've lost me... u said u turn it off momentarily to cure ur bubble on bag
problem - and now ur saying to never turn it off ?
huh ?

For tanks bigger than 30 gals you probbaly need
an XL. The D1 just takes too long above that size. It'll work to be sure
but how much time (or how many tanks) ya got?


I've just got a single 55 gal tank.
Cheers.




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