isn't ultraviolet sterilizer quite expensive? the antibiotics is about
$4-$5/pack for the full treatment regimen.. I would think UV sterilizers are
much more expensive...?

I suppose I can do 30% water change every other day for a while to see if
that will reduce any pathogens.. (seems like water change may be in order
anyway to fix the GH creep, whatever the cause was)

I guess I better hold off on adding the CO2 injector (nutrafin) that I
bought few weeks ago, in the expectation that I will finish using the
flourish excel... CO2 injection will probably mess up the pH even more from
the sounds of it..?

linda

"James Ervin" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Apr 2003 18:24:36 -0700, "linda mar"
wrote:

Hi all,

I've been trying to figure out what may be stressing my fish... before I
start adding wide-spectrum antibiotics or anti-parasitics, I wanted to
rule
out stuff that is more prosaic than some insidious infection...

Have you considered an ultraviolet unit before spending the bucks to
dose you tank with antibiotics? That would be my next step, other
than the moving GH figure that is being discussed in the thread. The
moving PH I would attribute to the natural CO2 cycle of your tank.

James Ervin
Remove SPAM to email me.

On Wed, 16 Apr 2003 16:35:27 -0700, "linda mar"
wrote:

isn't ultraviolet sterilizer quite expensive? the antibiotics is about
$4-$5/pack for the full treatment regimen.. I would think UV sterilizers are
much more expensive...?

This depends on the size of your tank and the duration of your dose.
My experience is that for a larger tank and a dose over a period of
days, the $5 a pack pills end up costing me over $100.00. A UV
sterilizer will no doubt cost you more today, but you will have it for
a long time. Your call. Neither may help in this case and you may
be best just doing the water changes. Personally, I draw the line at
extreme measures. I will change the water, make the best chemistry
that I can and make the best environment that I can, but I stop at
that.

I guess I better hold off on adding the CO2 injector (nutrafin) that I
bought few weeks ago, in the expectation that I will finish using the
flourish excel... CO2 injection will probably mess up the pH even more from
the sounds of it..?

Yes and no. I would be reluctant to add any other variables until you
resolved what is happening to the water, but at this point you are
more or less free to try what seems like a good shot. There is some
discussion in this thread regarding a possible lack of buffering
capacity in your water, but all things appear right from the
descriptions. The PH swing seems like a normal daily plant effect of
CO2 depletion, but the GH swing has to be from some external source or
a bad measurement.

Some times you have to put the numbers aside and observer your tank
with all your senses. How does the water look, smell and tast? What
color is it, and what are the signs inside the tank telling you. I
know this can seem like BS, but your senses can tell the difference
between a sick tank and a sick fish.





James Ervin
Remove SPAM to email me.

As far as I am aware, the kh and ph are linked. When you raise a low ph, the
kh will increase as that is what buffers it.

Tiddleye
"linda mar" wrote in message
...
Hi Tiddleye,

I've been getting more of a sof****er fish that can tolerate wide range of
pH.. but pH drift is bad in either case.

right now I have some whitecloud minnows, danios, siamege algae eaters and
lace gouramis. all tolerate soft water and wide pH range (with a possible
exception of the SAE.. but they're kinda new, so...)

I am trying to keep it a sof****er tank.. eventually once the pH
stabilizes,
I want to add some otos.. and they are soft water fish. (not to mention my
tap is soft, so it's easier to keep it as soft water)

GH is 6 right now, so I guess that is ok. I guess i'm looking for ways to
increase KH without increasing pH... do you know of any?

linda

"Tiddleye" wrote in message
...
Hi Linda,

You have very soft water and your fish are suffering from PH shock by
the
sound of it. I believe that your PH is unstable because your water has
no
buffering capacity so that when you do a ph check, there are to little
minerals (either acid or alkaline) to get an accurate reading. If you
want
a
ph value of around 7.5 you need to increase your GH to about 6 and your
KH
to around 10. This will stabilize your waters ph value.
You didn't say what fish you have so I don't know what parameters you
need.

Regards
Tiddleye
"linda mar" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I've been trying to figure out what may be stressing my fish...
before
I
start adding wide-spectrum antibiotics or anti-parasitics, I wanted to
rule
out stuff that is more prosaic than some insidious infection...

so I've started to test pH more regularly (every day for the past 4
days).
it's a moderately planted 37G tank, nitrite, ammonia, nitrate is
always
zero... temp ~75F.. UGF (2 aquaclear201 powerheadss) + HOT Magnum.

unfortunately when I test, I sometimes get a color that doesn't match
any
of
the color on the pH chart (AP pH test kit). so one day, I got a
dead-on
7.0... then the next day, it was baby blue, but not as dark as a
7.6..
and
it definitely was not 7.2 or 7.4 green-tinge. so.. what the heck is
this
value?

so my question is:

1. what would equate to a very diluted 7.6 color? is that considered
7.6?
(basically, no green.. looks like the baby blue for the AP freshwater
nitrite test kit when nitrite=0, but much much lighter than what the
card
shows for 7.6). I've tried very high pH (tap water).. and the color
turned
very dark blue, like the 7.6 on the scale.. so..

2. can a pH drift from 7.0 to 7.6 in two days when you dont' do
anything?
can plants do this? (CO2 outdiffusion, etc) I've heard of water
turning
acid, but not creeping to alkaline...

3. dKH=2, dGH=6... which is kinda funny.. it was 3, 3 last month.
just
tested the the tap and is GH/KH=2... (I use the dechlor'ed tap when I
do
partial water change...) so the GH drifted from 2 to 6 in the past
month
or
so. is this indicative of something strange with the water? (oddly
enough,
when I checked my LFS's water it was pH7.0, GH=6, KH=2, and we
probably
have
the same water source as we are neighboring city.. I wonder if tap
drifted
really high in GH one week when we both did water change?)

4. I've added flourish, flourish tabs, flourish iron and flourish
excel
in
recommended doses over the past month. can that contribute to GH
creep
and
pH instability?

5. should I even *attempt* to increase kH to stabilize the pH from
fluctuating too much? (my idea is less is better for overall
maintenanceship
of tanks... but if it is necessary..)

6. is there a better pH indicator that will show me better 7.0-8.0
range?
(my water is alkaline.. have yet to see it go below 7.0)


linda

Hi,

isn't ultraviolet sterilizer quite expensive? the antibiotics is about
$4-$5/pack for the full treatment regimen.. I would think UV sterilizers
are
much more expensive...?

This depends on the size of your tank and the duration of your dose.

oh. right...

My experience is that for a larger tank and a dose over a period of
days, the $5 a pack pills end up costing me over $100.00. A UV
sterilizer will no doubt cost you more today, but you will have it for

tank is 37G (actual volume after gravel, etc is probably more like 30G).. so
the $5/pack will allow me to do the full treatment course, fortunately...
if things don't improve after the full treatment course, then doing it again
probably won't help :-P

a long time. Your call. Neither may help in this case and you may
be best just doing the water changes. Personally, I draw the line at
extreme measures. I will change the water, make the best chemistry
that I can and make the best environment that I can, but I stop at
that.

hopefully I won't have to do anything drastic beyond reasonable... too
stressful for me and my fish...

I guess I better hold off on adding the CO2 injector (nutrafin) that I
bought few weeks ago, in the expectation that I will finish using the
flourish excel... CO2 injection will probably mess up the pH even more
from
the sounds of it..?

Yes and no. I would be reluctant to add any other variables until you
resolved what is happening to the water, but at this point you are
more or less free to try what seems like a good shot. There is some
discussion in this thread regarding a possible lack of buffering
capacity in your water, but all things appear right from the
descriptions. The PH swing seems like a normal daily plant effect of
CO2 depletion, but the GH swing has to be from some external source or
a bad measurement.

ok.

Some times you have to put the numbers aside and observer your tank
with all your senses. How does the water look, smell and tast? What
color is it, and what are the signs inside the tank telling you. I
know this can seem like BS, but your senses can tell the difference
between a sick tank and a sick fish.

that's the thing. I have a pretty keen sense of smell.. so I can smell the
difference between tap, rain, tank, stale water... so to me, the tank
always has some musty smell (not necessarily bad.. just smells "lived-in".
I'm probably smelling some of the beneficial bacteria, etc). I don't think
I want to taste the water tho.. (yuck). Color is somewhat brownish tinge
due to the tannin (getting lighter than it used to be, though). some fish
looks bloated but rather healthy (can't tell if the bloat is from water
condition, over eating, illness, egg, etc), while others turn listless and
stops eating. this has been going on for a while (going listless and stop
eating, etc). so my sense is telling me *something* is going on with the
tank, but I'm not sure if it's just due to the pH fluctuations stressing the
fish, or there is some other infection going on that some fish are more
resistant to...

I think based on all the inputs I got, I'll do some increased-pace water
changes this week, monitor pH more carefully, and go from there... and
hopefully the listless fish will perk up a bit. (I've moved some of them
into quarantine tank to see what would happen if I try to treat the
fish--cleaner water, no plants, neutral pH, that sort of thing.. some are
perking up, but not all)

linda





James Ervin
Remove SPAM to email me.

This depends on the size of your tank and the duration of your dose.
My experience is that for a larger tank and a dose over a period of
days, the $5 a pack pills end up costing me over $100.00. A UV
sterilizer will no doubt cost you more today, but you will have it for
a long time.

I agree with this. A UV sterilizer can be the economical way to go for a large
tank. It won't cure *all* diseases, but it will take care of ich, which is,
IME, the most common problem.






Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

"LeighMo" wrote in message
...

Can you ask them? Or search online. Many localities have their water
reports
on the net. Search on the name of your locality and "water report"

I do have the water report. I'll have to see what they add to make the pH
higher..

And are you sure your KH test kit is working? Does adding baking soda
increase
your KH?

I'll have to add baking soda and see what it does (have done it on pH
indicator, but not on KH). the test kit is new, so..

Tank is can be regarded "moderately low light". I have ~5400K 55W CF
(37G)
with the metallic reflector, sitting on top of a glass hood (Versatop).

So it's 55 over a 37 gallon tank, plus natural light?

yes

That isn't a lot of light, but some people have had pH problems even with
moderate light. (Probably it depends on how many plants you have. Plus,
the
first couple of weeks, PCF bulbs are extremely bright. They dim down a
lot
after that.)

the bulb is 3 months old.. so I think (if I read all the FAQs correctly) I
have about another 8-9 months before I have to replace it...

Try measuring the pH in the morning, just before the lights go on, in the
middle of the photoperiod, then in the evening, when the lights go off.
If the
pH is lowest in the morning, then rises all day to reach a peak at the end
of
the "day," then the plants are the cause of your pH changes.

ok

If the pH gradually rises over several days while the KH drops, again,
it's
probably the plants.

KH is pretty similar to the tap.. so it seems like KH is stable..

the gravel I use is supposed to be inert
(50% epoxy coated, the other 50% is natural)

The epoxy coated should be fine, but what's the natural gravel?

it looks like smooth rounded quartz-based stuff with other stuff in it (no
fizzing when I put it into vinegar, etc). natural rock color that they sell
at LFS (white quartz, rose quarts, brown, reddish brown...) sort of a
natural light-colored rounded pebbles. just not coated (the epoxy coated
one is more darker reddish browns).

linda

it looks like smooth rounded quartz-based stuff with other stuff in it

If it's quartz, it should be okay. But some of the gravels sold for fishtanks
are not inert. If they're meant for marine or African tanks, they can raise
the GH quite a bit.

no
fizzing when I put it into vinegar, etc).

Vinegar probably wouldn't be strong enough to get a reaction.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

"James Ervin" wrote in message
...
more or less free to try what seems like a good shot. There is some
discussion in this thread regarding a possible lack of buffering
capacity in your water, but all things appear right from the
descriptions. The PH swing seems like a normal daily plant effect of
CO2 depletion, but the GH swing has to be from some external source or
a bad measurement.

Without CO2 injection, it's not normal to have any measurable daily pH
swing. The agitation should be enough to keep the dissolved and atmospheric
gases balanced. If there is any swing, it means that the plants are
stripping the water of CO2 to below equilibrium, and that's extremely low.
__
Alex

"linda mar" wrote in message
...

the tap when left out for over 24 hours, the pH reads about 7.8... we
think
the municipal water department adds something to make the pH artificially
high... the tank pH is lower than the tap (even after left out for
several
days). probably because of the fish and the bog wood and stuff...

How do you know it's 7.8? Do you have a high-range pH test kit? I've never
heard of the water utility adding something other than bicarbonate to raise
the pH. Why add something else when bicarbonate would do the job?

Also, I think a large water change is the most beneficial thing you can do
right now. I wouldn't hold it off any longer.
__
Alex

How do you know it's 7.8? Do you have a high-range pH test kit? I've never

yes. I do have the high-range pH test kit... (came with the freshwater
test kit).

heard of the water utility adding something other than bicarbonate to
raise
the pH. Why add something else when bicarbonate would do the job?

I don't know what they add. but whatever they add, it doesn't raise the KH
a whole lot.. (tap KH = 2-3.. probably 2.5). But apparently this is not
uncommon.. there was someone else (Massachusetts or Texas, i can't remember)
who had a very similar reading: GH/KH=2-3, pH=7.8-8.0... so...

Also, I think a large water change is the most beneficial thing you can do
right now. I wouldn't hold it off any longer.

this weekend is my big water change weekend.. (I usually do about 25% every
1.5weeks). I'll just do a lot larger than 25%...

linda

Try something around 10% HCl. If you don't know someone with a pool, try
the pharmacy. Most of them can mix a dropper bottle full if they are in the
mood, or at least they used to be able to do so. Or try scratching a bunch
of the pieces of gravel with a knife blade... quartz won't scratch easily,
anything softer could cause trouble. Limestone will scratch fairly easily.

Bob

"LeighMo" wrote in message
...
it looks like smooth rounded quartz-based stuff with other stuff in it

If it's quartz, it should be okay. But some of the gravels sold for
fishtanks
are not inert. If they're meant for marine or African tanks, they can
raise
the GH quite a bit.

no
fizzing when I put it into vinegar, etc).

Vinegar probably wouldn't be strong enough to get a reaction.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

"Alex R" wrote in message
news:ilHna.524636$S_4.566380@rwcrnsc53...

How do you know it's 7.8? Do you have a high-range pH test kit? I've never
heard of the water utility adding something other than bicarbonate to
raise
the pH. Why add something else when bicarbonate would do the job?

Also, I think a large water change is the most beneficial thing you can do
right now. I wouldn't hold it off any longer.
__
Alex

Mine adds sodium hydroxide..... I got that from the engineer that runs the
system.
I'm close to the treatment plant and mine comes out 8.9 pH.


Bob

it looks like smooth rounded quartz-based stuff with other stuff in it

If it's quartz, it should be okay. But some of the gravels sold for
fishtanks
are not inert. If they're meant for marine or African tanks, they can
raise
the GH quite a bit.

No.. I don't think they were meant for marine or african tanks... more like
river gravel/pebble.. I dont have the bag with me anymore (bought it 4-5mo
ago), but it sort of looks like quartz, quartz coglomerate, granite-type
materials, grounded smooth.

no
fizzing when I put it into vinegar, etc).

Vinegar probably wouldn't be strong enough to get a reaction.

hmm.. all the reference books I read said that if it has any lime, etc, in
it, vinegar will make it bubble... I suppose I can "steal" some
concentrated acetic acid from the lab and take it home and try it, but
either way, I'm pretty certain the gravel is inert. (if it was gravel
leeching GH-elements, it doesn't explain why the GH went up in the past 2-4
weeks while it was stable during the first 12-14 weeks...)

linda



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

wow. 8.9? that's pretty harsh!!! do you have to treat your tap for pH
before you water change, or do you just have lots of fish that can tolerate
very high pH? if you do, what do you use to treat your tap for pH?

NaOH, eh? hm... makes sense.. (cheap, available in pellet form..)

linda

"Robert Flory" wrote in message
. ..

"Alex R" wrote in message
news:ilHna.524636$S_4.566380@rwcrnsc53...

How do you know it's 7.8? Do you have a high-range pH test kit? I've
never
heard of the water utility adding something other than bicarbonate to
raise
the pH. Why add something else when bicarbonate would do the job?

Also, I think a large water change is the most beneficial thing you can
do
right now. I wouldn't hold it off any longer.
__
Alex

Mine adds sodium hydroxide..... I got that from the engineer that runs the
system.
I'm close to the treatment plant and mine comes out 8.9 pH.


Bob

ok. will get hold of strong acid...

linda

"Robert Flory" wrote in message
. com...
Try something around 10% HCl. If you don't know someone with a pool, try
the pharmacy. Most of them can mix a dropper bottle full if they are in
the
mood, or at least they used to be able to do so. Or try scratching a bunch
of the pieces of gravel with a knife blade... quartz won't scratch easily,
anything softer could cause trouble. Limestone will scratch fairly
easily.

Bob

"LeighMo" wrote in message
...
it looks like smooth rounded quartz-based stuff with other stuff in it

If it's quartz, it should be okay. But some of the gravels sold for
fishtanks
are not inert. If they're meant for marine or African tanks, they can
raise
the GH quite a bit.

no
fizzing when I put it into vinegar, etc).

Vinegar probably wouldn't be strong enough to get a reaction.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/