I guess ill start with the basics, its a 37 gal all-glass tank with just
under 2 watts per gal, no CO2 injection yet.
pH 8.4
total hardness 250 ppm
total alkilinity buffer over 300 ppm (not sure cause it was drastically
darker then the highest value of 300 ppm).
NO3 approx 30ppm
NH3 and NO2 unmeasurable.

Well needless to say the tank was previously a home for african chiclids for
the last 9 years. Since I was down to the last 1 I traded him and cat and
pleco in and switched gears to a planted community tank, with 2 angels, 4
neon tetra, 2 corrys, 4 ottos and 3 neon dwarf rainbows with 10 camoba
looking stem plant (definately not camoba tho) and about 6 stalks of generic
hygro. Right now the plants are growing like mad, and algae is very low as
usual.

Now for the question, as you can see the fish would like the water with a pH
of alot closer or slightly lower then 7 and I am no where near that and also
it seems that many of the common plants would like a lower pH as well. So I
am wondering if when I start adding CO2 will I be able to get the pH to a
more accaptible range. Also I believe that the test my my hardness my be
accurate since I do believe our well water sits above limestone, and I do
not think our water would be phosphate buffered since I live on a narrow
isthmus of .5 miles between 2 lakes.

So anyways would CO2 get my pH down to a more reasonable level? Would the
use of pH lowering additives be a good idea? Or don't worry about it and
pray the fish will be fine, and be happy that my current 2 plant types are
growing like mad? Any sites or personal info welcome on overcoming this
problem, but unfortunately expensive fixes like RO systems are out of the
question for me, as I am quite limited on spare cash.

Thanks in advance

On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 08:04:03 GMT, "Shakey"
wrote:

I guess ill start with the basics, its a 37 gal all-glass tank with just
under 2 watts per gal, no CO2 injection yet.
pH 8.4

Pretty high pH for most fish, including tetras and corys.

total hardness 250 ppm
total alkilinity buffer over 300 ppm (not sure cause it was drastically
darker then the highest value of 300 ppm).

Wow! that's a dkH of about 17 (or more.)

So anyways would CO2 get my pH down to a more reasonable level? Would the
use of pH lowering additives be a good idea? Or don't worry about it and
pray the fish will be fine, and be happy that my current 2 plant types are
growing like mad? Any sites or personal info welcome on overcoming this
problem, but unfortunately expensive fixes like RO systems are out of the
question for me, as I am quite limited on spare cash.

You would have to add so much CO2 to lower the pH to 'normal' levels,
that the fish would probably die. Lowering the pH to just 7.2 would
result in CO2 levels of over 32ppm - a tad high.

Mixing your tap water with RO water would be best. A Cheap RO unit
can be had for $60. Some grocery stores located in hard water areas
have RO water dispensers out front - around 10 to 25 cents a gallon.
Get a 6 gallon camping water carrier and fill 'er up! Mix your water
down to a dkH of 7 or so, and THEN inject CO2 to obtain a pH of 6.9 to
end up with a CO2 level of 26ppm - a tolerable level for most, if not
all, fish

pH Down and other such additives are a BAD idea, IMHO.
They just don't work properly, and many contain phosphates that play
havoc with water chemistry and algae blooms.

With more CO2 you might need a little more lighting for best results.

With that kind of water, perhaps you should consider a reef tank. ;-)

This is just MY advice...
Greg

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 08:04:03 GMT, "Shakey"
wrote:

I guess ill start with the basics, its a 37 gal all-glass tank with just
under 2 watts per gal, no CO2 injection yet.
pH 8.4

Pretty high pH for most fish, including tetras and corys.

total hardness 250 ppm
total alkilinity buffer over 300 ppm (not sure cause it was drastically
darker then the highest value of 300 ppm).

Wow! that's a dkH of about 17 (or more.)

Disclaimer: 2 things need to be mentioned, I can not guarntee that there is
"not" some sort of phosphate buffer, and I hear those really mess with
hardness values, but being so close to 2 lakes I do not think so, as I would
assume the local DNR would be freaking out, but I don't have a clue how to
go about finding out if that is the case. Second, I had these tests done at
the local fish store, and they did not have hardness that was displayed in
degrees only ppm.


So anyways would CO2 get my pH down to a more reasonable level? Would the
use of pH lowering additives be a good idea? Or don't worry about it and
pray the fish will be fine, and be happy that my current 2 plant types
are
growing like mad? Any sites or personal info welcome on overcoming this
problem, but unfortunately expensive fixes like RO systems are out of the
question for me, as I am quite limited on spare cash.

You would have to add so much CO2 to lower the pH to 'normal' levels,
that the fish would probably die. Lowering the pH to just 7.2 would
result in CO2 levels of over 32ppm - a tad high.

Mixing your tap water with RO water would be best. A Cheap RO unit
can be had for $60. Some grocery stores located in hard water areas
have RO water dispensers out front - around 10 to 25 cents a gallon.
Get a 6 gallon camping water carrier and fill 'er up! Mix your water
down to a dkH of 7 or so, and THEN inject CO2 to obtain a pH of 6.9 to
end up with a CO2 level of 26ppm - a tolerable level for most, if not
all, fish

Yikes I sorta feared that as I do not have a problem keeping up with water
changes, but if I would have to make runs to get water, I have to be honest,
I may end up being a bit lazy on that part.


pH Down and other such additives are a BAD idea, IMHO.
They just don't work properly, and many contain phosphates that play
havoc with water chemistry and algae blooms.

Yea thats what I was hearing too, so I was worried about that too as now the
algae is very much in check.


With more CO2 you might need a little more lighting for best results.

Yes I agree on the lighting, but currently thats all my lighting system
would hold, so just got some fresh bulbs when I made the switch and went
with the newbie fast growing stem plants cause I wasnt sure if they would
even grow but so far so good *knock on wood*


With that kind of water, perhaps you should consider a reef tank. ;-)

Yea thats been most of the reason I was keeping the africans, but I had em
for almost 10 years so it was time for a change, I kept a reef about 15
years ago, but its just too expensive, especially now, since extra cash is a
bit tight.


This is just MY advice...
Greg


Thanks for the reply.

i agree, keep a reef :-), wow ph 8.4!!! thats more than sea water. i
wonder how your fish are alive. i also agree do a water change, but, but,
and but....slowly, not an abrupt one, a slow one. r/o is the best, no
mineral trace. i suggest if you are so short in cash, collect rain water,
its really soft, watch out for acid rain and pollution though.

i use to do that with a tank i had almost 17 years ago, i was a student and
as usual had no money, so i collected rain water to do water changes, my
angels loved it. i collected also mosquitoe larvae in a bucket, my angels
were so happy, they had the best of both worlds, soft water and live food.

its all in the mind how you manage to do with no cash, but a nice and simple
tank.

take care

"Shakey" wrote in message
...

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 08:04:03 GMT, "Shakey"
wrote:

I guess ill start with the basics, its a 37 gal all-glass tank with
just
under 2 watts per gal, no CO2 injection yet.
pH 8.4

Pretty high pH for most fish, including tetras and corys.

total hardness 250 ppm
total alkilinity buffer over 300 ppm (not sure cause it was drastically
darker then the highest value of 300 ppm).

Wow! that's a dkH of about 17 (or more.)

Disclaimer: 2 things need to be mentioned, I can not guarntee that there
is
"not" some sort of phosphate buffer, and I hear those really mess with
hardness values, but being so close to 2 lakes I do not think so, as I
would
assume the local DNR would be freaking out, but I don't have a clue how to
go about finding out if that is the case. Second, I had these tests done
at
the local fish store, and they did not have hardness that was displayed in
degrees only ppm.


So anyways would CO2 get my pH down to a more reasonable level? Would
the
use of pH lowering additives be a good idea? Or don't worry about it
and
pray the fish will be fine, and be happy that my current 2 plant types
are
growing like mad? Any sites or personal info welcome on overcoming this
problem, but unfortunately expensive fixes like RO systems are out of
the
question for me, as I am quite limited on spare cash.

You would have to add so much CO2 to lower the pH to 'normal' levels,
that the fish would probably die. Lowering the pH to just 7.2 would
result in CO2 levels of over 32ppm - a tad high.

Mixing your tap water with RO water would be best. A Cheap RO unit
can be had for $60. Some grocery stores located in hard water areas
have RO water dispensers out front - around 10 to 25 cents a gallon.
Get a 6 gallon camping water carrier and fill 'er up! Mix your water
down to a dkH of 7 or so, and THEN inject CO2 to obtain a pH of 6.9 to
end up with a CO2 level of 26ppm - a tolerable level for most, if not
all, fish

Yikes I sorta feared that as I do not have a problem keeping up with water
changes, but if I would have to make runs to get water, I have to be
honest,
I may end up being a bit lazy on that part.


pH Down and other such additives are a BAD idea, IMHO.
They just don't work properly, and many contain phosphates that play
havoc with water chemistry and algae blooms.

Yea thats what I was hearing too, so I was worried about that too as now
the
algae is very much in check.


With more CO2 you might need a little more lighting for best results.

Yes I agree on the lighting, but currently thats all my lighting system
would hold, so just got some fresh bulbs when I made the switch and went
with the newbie fast growing stem plants cause I wasnt sure if they would
even grow but so far so good *knock on wood*


With that kind of water, perhaps you should consider a reef tank. ;-)

Yea thats been most of the reason I was keeping the africans, but I had em
for almost 10 years so it was time for a change, I kept a reef about 15
years ago, but its just too expensive, especially now, since extra cash is
a
bit tight.


This is just MY advice...
Greg


Thanks for the reply.

So anyways would CO2 get my pH down to a more reasonable level? Would the
use of pH lowering additives be a good idea? Or don't worry about it and
pray the fish will be fine, and be happy that my current 2 plant types are
growing like mad? Any sites or personal info welcome on overcoming this
problem, but unfortunately expensive fixes like RO systems are out of the
question for me, as I am quite limited on spare cash.

Thanks in advance

I'd buy the CO2 if growing plants is your goal.
RO water does not grow plants.
Plants don't do better in softer water anymore than hard.
Adding CO2 is what the plants really want.

It will lower the pH also which will help the fish some, but many
LFS's, hobbyist keeping SA soft water fish do not use RO/softening
methods.

I had a GH of 24, much higher than yours, KH of 15, my fish did
fine(Rummy noses/cardinals etc). Plants did super.
The water tasted like crap though.

A little under 2w/gal is good.
Add enough CO2 to get the pH to 7.2 to 7.3 and keep it there during
the daylight period.

The main purpose of adding CO2 is to supply the plants with carbon.
When the plants are healthy, so are the fish.

_Only_ use CO2 gas to lower pH in a planted tank.

You get this down, the rest is relative easy to deal with(nutrients).
Fish wise, you might not be able to breed some of these fish, but you
can certainly keep many fish at the GH/KH levels from the well. You
can also try out other fish, even some rift fish that don't dig/eat
plants(there are plants in both lakes BTW).

I contend it is a myth that anyone needs a RO for a planted tank, they
might want it/need it for a _fish_, but _not_ for the plants. The only
exceptions are a couple of salty cases and one high copper(2-3ppm
Cu)tap.

Regards,
Tom Barr