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#1
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Whats more important PH or KH
I have started to use Flourish Excel to feed my plants instead of DIY yeast
CO2 The only problem is my tap water KH is 3 and pH at least 7.6 What is more important to maintain the pH or the KH. I would like to get the pH down to around 7 with out using CO2 just for breeding purposes. Any thought apprec. Thanks |
#2
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Whats more important PH or KH
"xtr396472" wrote in message ... I have started to use Flourish Excel to feed my plants instead of DIY yeast CO2 The only problem is my tap water KH is 3 and pH at least 7.6 What is more important to maintain the pH or the KH. I would like to get the pH down to around 7 with out using CO2 just for breeding purposes. Any thought apprec. Thanks The two are linked. At a known level of CO2 (i.e. what you get from the Atmosphere) as KH falls so Ph will fall with it. In other words if you want to bring down the Ph to 7 then you need to reduce the Kh which you can do with Peat, or bogwood etc. However, two issues... a) As Kh approaches zero so Ph becomes unstable and can crash (to 5 & below) with disasterous results. b) At levels below Kh 3-4 you get Ammonium instead of Ammonia released. This means your Bio filter dies back a bit. If you then bring the Kh back up to 4 & above for any reason the Ammonia suddenly gets released as Ammonia with similarly diasterous consequences - this one is known as "Old Tank Syndrome" since over time the Kh of a tank will naturally fall (unless there is anything in the tank to hold it up). With a tank like that if you then do a water change and so restore the Kh everything can go a bit pear shaped. Safest way to bring Ph down to 7 & below is with CO2. rgds I. |
#3
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Whats more important PH or KH
"Iain Miller" wrote in message
... "xtr396472" wrote in message ... I have started to use Flourish Excel to feed my plants instead of DIY yeast CO2 The only problem is my tap water KH is 3 and pH at least 7.6 What is more important to maintain the pH or the KH. I would like to get the pH down to around 7 with out using CO2 just for breeding purposes. Any thought apprec. Thanks The two are linked. At a known level of CO2 (i.e. what you get from the Atmosphere) as KH falls so Ph will fall with it. In other words if you want to bring down the Ph to 7 then you need to reduce the Kh which you can do with Peat, or bogwood etc. Does the kH drop significantly with CO2 injection? My understanding was that the pH dropped with CO2 injection because the kH didn't. On the other hand, CO2 makes carbonic acid which would drop your kH. However, two issues... a) As Kh approaches zero so Ph becomes unstable and can crash (to 5 & below) with disasterous results. b) At levels below Kh 3-4 you get Ammonium instead of Ammonia released. This means your Bio filter dies back a bit. If you then bring the Kh back up to 4 & above for any reason the Ammonia suddenly gets released as Ammonia with similarly diasterous consequences - this one is known as "Old Tank Syndrome" since over time the Kh of a tank will naturally fall (unless there is anything in the tank to hold it up). With a tank like that if you then do a water change and so restore the Kh everything can go a bit pear shaped. I thought the NH4 to NH3 conversion was a direct function of only pH. Under acidic forces, the kH will indirectly alter the NH3 to NH4 by allowing the pH to drop (but I'm no chemist). -- www.NetMax.tk Safest way to bring Ph down to 7 & below is with CO2. rgds I. |
#4
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Whats more important PH or KH
The two are linked. At a known level of CO2 (i.e. what you get from the
Atmosphere) as KH falls so Ph will fall with it. In other words if you want to bring down the Ph to 7 then you need to reduce the Kh which you can do with Peat, or bogwood etc. However, two issues... a) As Kh approaches zero so Ph becomes unstable and can crash (to 5 & below) with disasterous results. I do and don't agree with the above statements. IIRC a high KH (70 ppm) will raise pH, but KH, within normal ranges, acts as a stabilizer (buffer) for pH, the lower the KH the more drastic the pH swings maybe. An average KH 30-70 ppm will keep large (rapid) pH swings from happening due to outside factors. A KH of lower than average can allow pH swings caused by something as simple as the aquariums lights on/off cycle. any chemists out there that can translate that into a more understandable language? I used to work as a swimming pool technician, so if my chemistry is off, think twice before going into a public pool. Kris |
#5
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Whats more important PH or KH
"xtr396472" wrote in message ...
I have started to use Flourish Excel to feed my plants instead of DIY yeast CO2 The only problem is my tap water KH is 3 and pH at least 7.6 What is more important to maintain the pH or the KH. I would like to get the pH down to around 7 with out using CO2 just for breeding purposes. Any thought apprec. Thanks As far a breeding goes, the KH, the salts etc in your water are more important. I do not consider pH to be a large issue except with repsect to measuring CO2 with KH. Fish live in wide ranges and I think people worry too much about it and think having it at some precise range is best. pH changes daily in regions where there are both plants and fish. Often quite large variations. If you sit your tap water out in a glass for 24 hours and then measure the pH what do you think it will be? About 7.2-7.3 or so. Try it and see. Good plant growth = good fish health. I do not think it will make any difference in your tank or breeding to have a pH of 7.0 vs 7.4. You can use peat You can use CO2 Excel is okay, but it's maybe 1/3 the potency of CO2 gas. DIY is cheap. I'd stick with CO2 personally. I have fish breed all the time and I don't worry about the fish at all, just take care of the plants and feeded a varied diet to the fish. Fish are secondary to me, you might not feel the same, but the approach of taking care of the plants to take care of the fish does work very well FYI. Regards, Tom Barr |
#6
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Whats more important PH or KH
The two are linked. At a known level of CO2 (i.e. what you get from the Atmosphere) as KH falls so Ph will fall with it. In other words if you want to bring down the Ph to 7 then you need to reduce the Kh which you can do with Peat, or bogwood etc. Does the kH drop significantly with CO2 injection? My understanding was that the pH dropped with CO2 injection because the kH didn't. On the other hand, CO2 makes carbonic acid which would drop your kH. No, CO2 doesn't touch Kh it reduces Ph I thought the NH4 to NH3 conversion was a direct function of only pH. Under acidic forces, the kH will indirectly alter the NH3 to NH4 by allowing the pH to drop (but I'm no chemist). I'm no chemist either (!) I just know that at low levels of Kh you can run into OTS if you arn't careful - its not likely to be an issue if the water you use for changes has the same Kh as the water in the tank - its when the new water is much harder that the problem emerges AIUI. Hence why "Old tank syndrome" tends to happen to people who use tap water in their tanks & don't change any for ages. I. |
#7
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Whats more important PH or KH
"Kris" wrote in message news:bebzc.18815$lN.13766@edtnps84... The two are linked. At a known level of CO2 (i.e. what you get from the Atmosphere) as KH falls so Ph will fall with it. In other words if you want to bring down the Ph to 7 then you need to reduce the Kh which you can do with Peat, or bogwood etc. However, two issues... a) As Kh approaches zero so Ph becomes unstable and can crash (to 5 & below) with disasterous results. I do and don't agree with the above statements. IIRC a high KH (70 ppm) will raise pH, but KH, within normal ranges, acts as a stabilizer (buffer) for pH, the lower the KH the more drastic the pH swings maybe. An average KH 30-70 ppm will keep large (rapid) pH swings from happening due to outside factors. A KH of lower than average can allow pH swings caused by something as simple as the aquariums lights on/off cycle. You are right in that the relationship between Kh & Ph is not linear (there's a log in the formula somewhere!) - I've got a spreadsheet that works it out somewhere. Kh has to get pretty close to zero before Ph starts to really crash but as it gets closer the decline in Ph definitly accelerates. The OP was talking about wanting a Ph of around 7 - according to what I have at atmosphesric levels of CO2 (3ppm roughly) that would require a Kh of about 1dKh (15-17ppm) which is still stable & maintanable but doesn't leave much room for error - its getting pretty close to zero IMO. I. |
#8
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Whats more important PH or KH
"xtr396472" wrote in message
... I have started to use Flourish Excel to feed my plants instead of DIY yeast CO2 The only problem is my tap water KH is 3 and pH at least 7.6 What is more important to maintain the pH or the KH. I would like to get the pH down to around 7 with out using CO2 just for breeding purposes. Any thought apprec. Thanks pre-filtering thru peat will work for sure. It is far easier and cheaper then co2, the only downside, is it is a little messier. Bob |
#9
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Whats more important PH or KH
"Bob" wrote in message ... "xtr396472" wrote in message ... I have started to use Flourish Excel to feed my plants instead of DIY yeast CO2 The only problem is my tap water KH is 3 and pH at least 7.6 What is more important to maintain the pH or the KH. I would like to get the pH down to around 7 with out using CO2 just for breeding purposes. Any thought apprec. Thanks pre-filtering thru peat will work for sure. It is far easier and cheaper then co2, the only downside, is it is a little messier. Indeed it will (I do it). Its important for the OP to understand what goes on there though....it lowers the Ph because it eats up the Kh. There's an added twist to it in that when you prefilter through peat you also get a LOT of CO2 in the water initially. This "out-gasses" in a few hours but the key to doing this and knowing where you are is therefore not to measure Ph but to track Kh as you are filtering the water. This is because the Ph will be artificially low on account of the excess CO2 that gets into the water during the filtering process. I've meaured it (by measuring Ph and Kh & reading off the relevant tables) at over 120ppm straight out the peat filter. I. |
#10
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Whats more important PH or KH
I still have a high ph after 24 hours 7.6 plus
Thanks for all the answers Mike " wrote in message m... "xtr396472" wrote in message ... I have started to use Flourish Excel to feed my plants instead of DIY yeast CO2 The only problem is my tap water KH is 3 and pH at least 7.6 What is more important to maintain the pH or the KH. I would like to get the pH down to around 7 with out using CO2 just for breeding purposes. Any thought apprec. Thanks As far a breeding goes, the KH, the salts etc in your water are more important. I do not consider pH to be a large issue except with repsect to measuring CO2 with KH. Fish live in wide ranges and I think people worry too much about it and think having it at some precise range is best. pH changes daily in regions where there are both plants and fish. Often quite large variations. If you sit your tap water out in a glass for 24 hours and then measure the pH what do you think it will be? About 7.2-7.3 or so. Try it and see. Good plant growth = good fish health. I do not think it will make any difference in your tank or breeding to have a pH of 7.0 vs 7.4. You can use peat You can use CO2 Excel is okay, but it's maybe 1/3 the potency of CO2 gas. DIY is cheap. I'd stick with CO2 personally. I have fish breed all the time and I don't worry about the fish at all, just take care of the plants and feeded a varied diet to the fish. Fish are secondary to me, you might not feel the same, but the approach of taking care of the plants to take care of the fish does work very well FYI. Regards, Tom Barr |
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